JerryvonKramer

That's not the full picture though. Did Hogan headline all the 100s of sell out house shows the company ran during that time? Was it Hogan that broke Texas or running matches like JYD vs DiBiase or JYD vs. Anyone there because they knew those guys were over with the local market? To say the biggest expansion wrestling has ever known was solely down to one drawing star is ridiculous. Sure TV drove it and he was the big star of the show, but the product had to be hot too, the undercard had to be hot for people to stay tuned in and turn up to all those hundreds of non-Hogan live shows that drew 8,000 every time. Just think you're selling the rest of the roster very short.

Growth in all the streams that took the WWF from being a regional super territory in 84 to selling out Wembley stadium in 1992. It wasn't just Hogan, that's far too simplistic, far too crude a way of looking at it.

It can be proven by looking at the audience demographics for WWF shows at that time vs. now, and also looking at GROWTH in the periods when the promotion was running those sorts of workers with those sorts of gimmicks.

I think the point I've been making has been missed - people are getting wrapped up in the specifics of Mania 6, I could have picked any card. REPEAT: THE PARTICULARS OF MANIA 6 DON'T MATTER, JUST A RANDOM CARD TO GENERATE A BUNCH OF NAMES. That means all the stuff about who people remember or what fans know now or whether or not Rude/ Snuka was a last minute afterthought and the entire house was sold by Hogan vs. Warrior simply does not matter. The point was not even that everyone and their dog knew Roberts, DiBiase etc. either, nor who remembers them, the point is: - At that time they were draws, they were draws through a mixture of being well known AND having recognisable characters and gimmicks that may perk the interest of SOMEONE NOT INTO WRESTLING. i.e. someone might have no clue who DiBiase or Roberts are, but when he hears Jake talking about avarice and greed with a snake wrapped around his shoulders or DiBiase fanning a bunch of $100 bills and stuffing one in a guy's mouth -- THAT's something that even a total casual non-fan can get into instantly. So: 1. They had some name value as draws 2. They had drawing gimmicks that could perk the interest of casuals

Going back to what the OP is getting at though, the WWE seems to push brand and company name (and individual PPVs like Mania) over whoever is on those cards. It's almost like the wrestlers don't matter. I think it's a mistake to look at the top of the card. Look at the undercard. Take any random show from the 80s and Gorilla's line about the match being "main event anywhere in the country" is true. Look at Mania VI. Dino Bravo vs. Jim Duggan would have been a drawing match anywhere in the US or Canada. Ted DiBiase vs. Jake Roberts is a drawing match. Dusty Rhodes vs. Savage is a drawing match. Rude vs. Snuka is a drawing match. Demolition vs. Haku and Andre is a drawing match. Every guy listed there, with the possible exception of Haku, was a proven main event draw. When I'm saying "draw", I don't mean just fans of wrestling, I mean women and children, and the casual audience. If a kid or in fact ANYONE happened to get a random glipse of something like Bossman vs. Akeem, the flash of colour and interesting characters and level of gimmick, is enough of a hook to keep them watching for 5 minutes. Then they might catch a Jake promo and they'll be interested, they'll keep watching. Let's look at 2012's Mania with this sort of objective in mind. The idea of a casual person just happening to catch something that's on: Sheamus vs Daniel Bryan - not in any sense a drawing match, no interest for the casual Kane defeated Randy Orton - arguably a drawing match. People might remember Kane. He has an interesting look. Orton within the world of current WWE is treated like a big name. Big Show vsCody Rhodes - only partly a drawing match. Big Show is recognisable, and he has "attraction" appeal. Cody Rhodes has nothing interesting about him. Kelly Kelly and Maria Menounos vs Beth Phoenix and Eve - nope The Undertaker vs Triple H (w/ Shawn as ref) - yes. Obvious reasons. Team Johnny (David Otunga (captain), Mark Henry, Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger, The Miz, and Drew McIntyre) (with John Laurinaitis, Vickie Guerrero and Brie Bella) vs Team Teddy (Santino Marella (captain), R-Truth, Kofi Kingston, Zack Ryder, The Great Khali, and Booker T) (with Teddy Long, Hornswoggle, Eve, Nikki Bella and Aksana) - absolutely no interest there for anyone apart from maybe Indians who know Great Khali. CM Punk © vs Chris Jericho - afraid not, Punk means nothing to anyone outside of wrestling and neither does Jericho. The Rock vs John Cena - yes, obvious reasons. This is as strong a main event as Hogan vs. Warrior. It's the undercard where things have really taken a dive.

I can accept heel Hogan as a draw and "ace" from 96-8, but the Hogan of 94-5 wasn't over with the WCW crowds. There is an argument to say that WCW's buys would have been up in 94-5 from the lows of 92-3 in any circumstance. What did the last PPV before Hogan's arrival do, vs. the match with Flair in 94? Certainly at that show there were significant portions of the crowd on Flair's side and that remained the case through Hogan's face run. Hogan was very stale in 92, and after a brief comeback pop also in 93, he continued to be stale in 94 and 95. Would love to see the figures.

I'll tell you what it is with Hogan: the fans, the casual ones, are there for the novelty of seeing Hogan and that's it. They couldn't give a shit about the product. They are there to see Hogan for one night only and that's that. That's why he wont be effective. Obviously if the product wasn't a bunch of crap but something people might be able to care about, then it might be different. But mostly, the product in any given promotion now is a bunch of crap, so no one who isn't into wrestling is going to get into it by watching a random match or random show. Hogan can be the bait, but there's got to be a hook and a reel. If Hogan pops your numbers one night, that's AN OPPORTUNITY to put on something to make those extra viewers care about something other than Hogan. Don't see TNA doing that.

I don't think Hogan has been a draw that can keep people hooked on a product for a long time though. Hogan's a guy that on any given night can draw a house and pop a crowd. If he's been away, then fans will go wild for him for a few days when he comes back. You can see it in 93. You can see it again in 02 and again in 05. Then in TNA. Hogan is always going to draw as a legend. He has 4 wide fanbases 1. kids of the 80s, 2. fans of the Monday Night Wars, 3. anyone who watched Hogan Knows Best, 4. anyone who happened to be alive in the 80s and 90s. He's a cultural icon. That doesn't mean you can build a promotion around him. It means he'll get popped like a cultural icon and might draw on any given night in any given town. Apart from his heel run in 96-8, I don't think Hogan's been able to be a company ace effectively since 91. I really believe that.

Got to think mainstream, mainstream on this. Who have normal, everyday people heard of? Rock, Hogan. Maybe Austin. Maybe Undertaker. I reckon that's it as far as your draws for people who aren't wrestling fans go. You know, maybe your dad or your mate who has no interest might go along with you "to see" any of those four. Reckon for males of a certain age, Warrior might also be in that bracket. As far as wrestling fans go, that is people who watch week in, week out, it's Cena and Punk. Maybe Angle. And a whole host of other guys I don't know or care about.

I'd argue Hogan is still a draw when it comes to popping a house for one night. That TNA show in London I went to, for example. Myself and my wife who has no fucking clue about wrestling at all and has never watched it, went for Hogan. There were plenty of people there purely for Hogan that night.

Usain Bolt

I dispute this. He did care about her! Or at least he cared about the idea of her being his.

So let me get this right. You're saying: 1. Tully was all about his image as a high roller and Baby Doll was part of that image. 2. Losing his title meant he no longer has the same income so he needed to find a way of getting rid of Baby Doll to save face. 3. So he enlisted the aid of JJ Dillon and concocted a story about her being some sort of cheat, and even went to the trouble of being emotional about it on national TV giving him a pretext to dump her in a way that doesn't compromise his image. Well, it's plausible and it holds up. But is this really what the booking was? Seems very complex for JCP in 86. Isn't it more: 1. Tully loved Baby Doll, or at least the IDEA of Baby Doll being his. 2. JJ Dillon wanted Tully as his own charged and needed to sideline Baby Doll. 3. So Dillon fed Tully the line that she wasn't faithful and Tully, being a proud man and being all about the image, couldn't handle this tainting the perfect picture, so had to get rid of her. That version of events paints Dillon as Iago and Tully as Othello. Yours paints Tully as some sort of machiavellian genius.

Chad grew up with posters of Linda Curry on his wall.

If there aren't Brian we could always do this in the year 2017 once we've reached Greed 2001. In the meantime, reckon it wouldn't be too hard to persuade Dave and Dylan to do a few SMW specials on their Wrestling Culture show.

How does that explain developing a plan that convoluted just to dump his girlfriend?

Why would he have been then? That's quite a complex ruse. Going to the bother of pretending to be upset with someone. Why? To dump the girl he's supposed to love? Don't understand it if Tully's in on it.

- Very interesting watching the Baby Doll - Tully breakup and JJ Dillon's role in it. The fact that Dillon has basically tricked Blanchard into being his charge means that their entire relationship is built on a lie. - Still think Dusty's booking is very creepy here. Getting rid of Sam Houston, snaking in on Baby Doll, writing himself as her knight in shining armour. Sickening. - Flair on Baby Doll: "I've seen better on the backside on the worst days of my life ... remember that one night when you had the chance to ride space mountain? ... Please Ric, please let me on". Ha ha ha, what a consummate asshole.

Even then it's hardly a fair comparison given that peak Bock is in the 70s (60s even), not the 80s.

Pretty sure we didn't have PPVs in the UK until surprisingly recently. We'd get them "free", essentially, if you had the right subscription channel. That accounts for the jump in the 00s if the same is true of other countries.

It does seem weird that Hogan vs. Sid would be over 200,000 buys less compelling than Hogan / Beefcake vs. Money Inc. Even more weird that Bret / Yoko should outdraw Savage / Flair. Has to be an external reason. Either that or Mike Rotunda is a bigger draw than Flair, Savage and Sid.

Reckon it was the awesome job Sean Mooney did on the countdown show.

The whole point though is that Manny was claim that match was the main event. I was in the minority in not liking that match too much, both Chad and Brian were higher on it than me -- but like I said, I'm ok with being in the minority. I don't buy that they were going easy so as not to steal the card. If you listen to Arn or Tully talk about this time, they talk about looking to go out there and "steal the show" from whatever position they with at in the card. If that was the mentality within the company at that time, then what excuse do Abby and Manny have for putting on such a tame match? As it happens, we mention that match again briefly on the next show ... Where the Big Boys Play #10 – NWA Superstars on the Superstation Brian and Parv take a look at this TV special from February 1986. Topics include: differences between JCP and WWF in the booking of the tag division, who on earth is Linda Curry?, speculation on why Crockett gave the decrepit Baron von Raschke into the promotion from the AWA at this time, Willie Nelson, Dusty Rhodes and differences between British and American working class values, further talk about Dusty’s dark desires for Baby Doll, more classic moments from David Crockett who is on top form, analysis of Tommy Young’s (kayfabe) performance as a ref, and picks for match of the night, MVP and The Billy Graham award.

Neil - are you doing buys for NWA / WCW events too?