JerryvonKramer

Pete, can you give me like the 10 or 20 MUST WATCH matches on NWA classics so far? I really need to catch up with this. Loving the fact that Bruce is dipping into the 1970s again.

Anyone who listens to Titans knows that Strongbow is probably my least favourite wrestler of all time. I like him even less than I like Jimmy Jam Garvin or Tom Zenk. So why the nomination? Well, a few things: - Before Putski, the #2 guy for WWF behind Bruno was Strongbow. He seems to have a genuinely special place in the fans from the North East from that period. Not just Jon Stewart, but like ANYONE who watched wrestling in the North East from that time frame. After Bruno, they will probably mention Strongbow in the next breath. He even gets shout outs regularly from the Wu-Tang Clan who were clearly wrestling fans in the 70s. I don't know what that *counts* for, but that and the HUGE pops he gets means that with the exception of one or two people (Bryan?), he was arguably more over and connected more closely with the audience than any performer in Modern WWE since Steve Austin. That's a huge statement, but one I think that would be backed up if there were more 70s fans around here. - Even more than Putski, Strongbow was limited. In the footage we have, he's old, he does very few moves, he's saggy and fat and horrible. And yet ... his mastery of crowd control and timing is something that most modern performers could only marvel at. He has MSG or Philly crowds eating out of the palm of his hand every single match up. Here's a match Kelly would point to as an "anti-workrate classic". Now, sure, it bored the SHIT out of me with my eyes more accustomed to 80s NWA and a higher workrate. But watch how the crowd reacts to every single little thing. Watch how much leverage Fuji and Strongbow get out of the first chop. If you *seriously* advocate the idea of "less is more" and the idea of maximising tools, I don't see how Strongbow can't be a posterboy for your campaign. The crowd is in a virtual frenzy by the time he makes his comeback against Fuji. I have argued many times that it's because I think the MSG crowd are just idiots, but I'm being knowingly facecious when I say that. It's one argument where, honestly, Johnny Sorrow is absolutely on the money. And, well, if psychology and crowd control are about getting fans to buy tickets and cheer as loudly as they humanly can. Who am I to deny Strongbow? - And ... AND ... As much as I hate him, Strongbow DOES have good matches. The match with Greg Valentine is legit about ***1/2 if not more. It blew us away because we just weren't expecting anything, but he sold the beating of a lifetime. He has a similarly memorable one with Ernie Ladd in GCW when he gets his feathers shoved down his throat. Again, strip away my bias, and what you see is a babyface who knew how to generate maximum sympathy and response. He understood that way way better than someone like Triple H ever will or could. AND ... He was a very good tag worker, his run in 1977 against Fuji and Tanaka and SURPRISINGLY his run in 1982 tagging with Jules Strongbow (utterly worthless worker) against Fuji and Saito has been -- considering who is involved -- just blow away good and a revelation. No sarcasm or snideyness from me either when I say that. This is an argument from someone who genuinely despises Strongbow with considerable passion. If I can see the good there, then if you don't hate him as much as I do and claim to value psychology, think about him.

I'm going on the kinda feel I got when I talked about him with people in 2014 and the kinda feel I'm getting about him now. I reckon he might have *switched places* with CM Punk in that time if that makes any sense. You know, the smart community has always had to have "their guy". Their guy in the 80s was Flair. In the 90s they had a few different guys, but Bret and Shawn were the two foremost probably. In the 00s it was Bryan, and then for a while Punk, and now it seems to be Styles.

Could someone do the same with Flair? That's a serious question and someone like Parv has watched much more Flair than I have. The list GOTNW made for Danielson is outstanding and there are a lot of noticeable names that he left off. Aries, YAMATO, Jimmy Rave, Samoa Joe, Bobby Fish, etc. - all guys that Danielson has worked with in their best match or one of their best matches. Well if you like podcasts, part 3 of my Flair series was Pete going through his top 20 matches, which in itself gives some idea of variety. And those are all GREAT matches. It's here: https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-3?in=user-178479841/sets/fair-for-flair I can't remember what he listed, but try this: 1. Steamboat - career best match for Steamboat (and for Flair too) 2. Race - the match before Starrcade is arguably Race's career match 3. Lawler - I didn't think their match was brilliant but it's at least ***3/4, and the TV segment leading up to it is probably like top 5 tv segement ever. #15 on Memphis set results. 4. Kerry von Erich - possibly career best match for Kerry, depending on your mileage with the Jumbo match. #3, #4, and #8 on Texas set results. 5. Jumbo - I think the 83 match is ***** and a great demonstration of what both guys could do in a long old-fashioned technical match. #5 on All Japan set results. 6. Martel - 10/21/85 is in the ***3/4 range, #37 on All Japan set results 7. DiBiase - from 11/85, all-time classic angle and a really memorable match, also a nice example of Ric kicking the shit out of someone, which you don't always get to see. #3 on Mid-south set results. 8. Dusty - arguably a disappointing in-ring feud, but also arguably Dusty's career match 9. Windham - Barry's career match (Battle of the Belts as well as 1/20/87) 10. Wahoo - Wahoo's career match (note: we do not have Johnny Valentine matches in full on tape), #20 on Mid-South set results. 11. Bockwinkel - the title vs. title bout is memorable and pretty interesting to watch, #21 on AWA set results 12. Magnum TA - Magnum had better matches with DiBiase and Tully, but his Flair matches are in the **** range 13. Garvin - Garvin's career match (the 87 title win, but see also 85 studio bout as well as Starrcade 87) 14. Morton - Morton's career match. This is the "nose" one in the cage from GAB 86. 15. Taylor - Terry Taylor's career match. See 6/1/85, it's a REMARKABLE performance from Ric to carry Taylor to a match that good. #16 on Mid-South set results. 16. Luger - Luger's career match. Take your pick, but I'd go with Wrestlewar 90 probably. I do love Starrcade 88 too. 17. Funk - "I Quit" and GAB89, of course. I don't want to say they are Funk's career matches, but honestly, what would be better from his resume? 18. Sting - I'm not a fan of Clash 1, but certain respected people like our own Kris Zellner, still see it as a ***** match. Sting's career match in my view is with Vader, but he owes a lot of his career to Flair making him a star at Clash 1. 19. Savage - I love Wrestlemania 8 bout. If you take in the post-match promo it's one of the most memorable. Not 5-star, but still a great match for WWF in that time frame. I also dig them in 95-6 but more for the storyline. 20. Tenryu - just an absolutely awesome and fun match. Not career best for either guy, but a hardcore fan's dream match that really delivers on everything you'd want it to be. 21. Vader - not 5-star, but one of the few matches that has made me tear up and one that has a real place in my heart. 22. Shawn Michaels - I'm not a fan and your mileage may vary, but like the Vader match, it is pretty emotional. Their match from 92 is kinda "under the radar". 23. Arn Anderson - the singles match from 1995 or so, where Arn gets the fall on Flair, is a contender for Arn's career best singles match, and certainly one of his most memorable moments. 24. Bobby Eaton - random TV defences, but I think the one from 91 might be Eaton's career best singles match 25. Brian Pillman - as above really, I'm not sure what better matches Pillman had. Maybe the Liger one. 26. Butch Reed - again I'm not sure what better singles matches Reed would have in his resume, and it would be in the conversation. #24 on Mid-South set results. 27. Koko Ware - same deal, #8 on Memphis set results. 28. Mr. Perfect - loser leaves town match from 93, in the slim body of memorable matches Hennig had, it would have to be one of them 29. Hulk Hogan - bouts from 91 or bouts from 94. I have some problems with how they are worked, especially in 94, but they are some of the better matches of Hogan's career. 30. Mick Foley - not a huge fan of this bout, or indeed of Flair the garbage worker, but some people see it as a late classic. 31. Jake Roberts - #14 on Mid-South set results 32. Chris Adams - #11 on Texas set results 33. Kevin von Erich - #13 on Texas set results 34. David von Erich - #16 on Texas set results 35. Terry Gordy - #24 on Texas set results 36. Triple H - again not a fan of this run of Flair's, but perhaps memorable to more modern fans (Taboo Tuesday 2005) 37. Bret Hart - the title switch is worth seeking out. And there are some handhelds out there. Would probably make a Top 20 Bret Hart matches comp. 38. Edge - again, I couldn't care less, but if you are a modern WWE fan, it was probably memorable. Raw match from 2006. 39. Undertaker - Wrestlemania 18. I could leave it too, but it is part of Flair's and Taker's legend at this point. 40. Bruiser Brody - unpopular around here, and with me, but tell me what's a better Brody match? Talking St. Louis 1983 if you aren't sure. 41. Jack Brisco - this is from 3/7/80 and a lovely little TV bout, not essential, but a good look at Jack. And "memorable". They also have one from 8/18/82, which is well worth seeing. 42. Greg Valentine - his former tag-team partner. This is from 12/16/80. Good 15 minutes and one of the better matches we have from JCP at that time. 43. Ole Anderson - strap match from 10/17/81, and honestly I can't think of a better singles Ole match. 44. Carlos Colon - they go about 35 minutes in 1982. And would surely make any comp of a "Best of Colon", although it probably wouldn't make a best of Flair comp. I might review this soon. 45. Billyjack Haynes - this is a match from Portland circa 1984. Have a look to see what Flair can do with a limited opponent. 46. Sam Houston - love this match up, classic "Flair underestimates underdog" narrative. Simple and effective storytelling. 47. Road Warrior Hawk - I hate Hawk in this match, but look at how good Flair makes him look. 48. Jimmy Garvin - the cage match tells a great story in my view, and is probably Jimmy Jam's career singles match 49. Tasumi Fujinami - Chad and I liked the matches on WTBBP, and it probably got too much of a rough ride in the past. Footnote in the career of both guys, but not *bad* by any means. 50. Roddy Piper - he had matches with him in the early 80s in MACW, but I'm going with 91 MSG match here. Think I'll leave it there. Incidentally, this "anyone who was anyone" aspect is a huge part of what makes Flair the GWE. Like who else wrestled Dory Funk Jr (match I didn't mention) AND Shawn Michaels AND Hulk Hogan AND Randy Savage AND Ted DiBiase AND Tenryu AND Jumbo AND Wahoo? AND Steamboat AND all three of the von Erich brothers. No one that's who. And with the greatest respect to Bryan's impressive list of opponents -- and he will get 10 for it -- it does make some slight difference to me that Flair can reel off 30+ memorable matches with bona-fide legends in the business. Like, no one else ever had that career before and no one else ever will again. This sounds like hero worship coming from me, but it really isn't. No one else had that career or anything even close to it.

So I don't forget him: Undertaker Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 9 Great matches 5 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 1. Hulk Hogan, 2. Shawn Michaels, 3. Mankind, 4. Jeff Hardy, 5. Kurt Angle / Rock, 6. Brock, 7. Randy Orton, 8. Batista, 9. Edge, 10. Big Show, 11. HHH, 12. CM Punk, 13. Vince, 14. Kane, 15. Austin, 16. Diesel, 17. Bret Hart Variety = 17 opponents = 7 28

I'm wondering if Styles's move to WWE has changed the way people view him at all. Only because I've detected a very slight shift in the way he's thought about for this, whereby he's gone from being someone to strongly consider to something like a slam dunk. Any truth to that?

The thing is with Bossman is that even before he's said a word or done a single thing, he's got an advantage over a guy like Bryan. Why? Because he was a 300+lber. The fact that the rating is only a 4 is actually a slight knock on Bossman that he wasn't able to get over the danger of being a big man more in his career. This is even clearer to see with the ratings of Andre (10 - basically the master of working as a giant) and Big Show (5 - which, for someone of his size is really a disgraceful score). There are some reasons for that, like booking, out of either guys' hands, but Big Show just failed time and again to capture the aura that Andre had and I don't believe it is entirely down to wins and losses. I will consider putting Dustin's I score up, but I need to watch some prime Goldust first. It's been a while. As for the clip, fine, but if I'm going to start giving points for stuff like that I need to rethink if Dory or Benoit are really 0s -- two guys whose gimmick was "great wrestler" and two guys who were very over at different times essentially because of that idea. Or any number of other guys I've low-balled, and think about whether they are really that low. To me it's hard to say what is just overness and what is character work. And in all the times I've seen Bryan, his character work has never struck me as being anything more than what is required. He's over because he's a great wrestler, not because of his character work. The 4 I've given him reflects something "intangible": he's a nice, personable guy, whose passion for the business seems to come through in everything he does. THAT is also part of why he's over, and that's what the 4 is for. But on a scale where Randy Savage is a 9 and Dory Funk Jr is a 0, I can't justify giving him higher. That said, I think the fact that people are honing in on Bryan's scores is a strong indication that he's going to do very well in the final votes.

Essentially nominated on the strength of the tagteam with Rose and feud with The Rockers. What confuses me most about Somers is that that run appears to be such a COMPLETE anomoly in his career. I mean what else did he do? What other footage do we have? Without that run, his career would look more like Dennis Stamp's -- random runs in smaller places. And we don't have a huge amount of Stamp of tape to my knowledge. Just a weird guy in the overall scheme of things. You look at him and think "journeyman", but where did he actually work and what did he actually do?

I essentially nominated him because of this. But also because I think that the younger worker is "lost" because people remember him as Buff Bagwell. And because I genuinely believe he was better than Tom Zenk, who was nominated. The young rookie Bagwell was not adverse to getting a total beating, and usually older guys would be happy to oblige. He was a pretty boy -- had the sort of looks that Robert Gibson was meant to have -- and there's something satisifying about seeing him get slapped in the face. Also, I have really fond memories of the Bagwell and Scorpio team. One of the rare times that I got behind a babyface team.

The Valiants in the late 70s team were very much ahead of their time. The Freebirds are getting inducted into the WWE hall of fame, and justly so of course, but there is an argument to say that "without the Valiants there wouldn't be a Freebirds". They were the prototype for that "cool heel" team. They had a lot of pizazz around them in a promotion that actively shyed away from glitz (Vince Sr actually turned down Andy Kaufman don't forget, and he didn't want Hogan making movies). I could have nominated Johnny Valiant because he was more the "Michael Hayes" of the group, but Jimmy was there and part of it and they have some decent matches too. Nothing blow-away, but it's enough to see that the character we see later in JCP is not all Jimmy was capable of. Then, of course, he was one of the most over guys in Crockett and sold many a ticket in places like Richmond, VA. Similar to Putski, he has an incredibly efficient "input vs. crowd reaction" ratio. But, because it is JCP and not WWF, he also had more opportunities to have good or even very good matches. One match in particular stands out for me, a lost gem: Jack & Jerry Brisco vs. Jimmy Valiant & Bob Orton, Jr. (12/6/83) Really great example of how Jimmy could be very very effective if talented workers were there to mask some of his limitations. Anyway, I nominated him because I know he has his fans and I just had this idea of certain people opening up the ballot, seeing him there and slipping him into their back 10.

I'm not giving him more than 4 when Ricky Steamboat also has a 4 and, Bruno aside, is probably the most over babyface I've ever seen in the 1978 footage. Intangibles isn't really a measure of overness, it's a measure of charisma, character work and "X Factor", of which overness is one product. I agree that it is the most difficult category. There may be some tweaks before the end too. I'm not 100% convinced that all the 10s should be 10s, and I might bring Flair, The Rock and Austin down to a 9, leaving only Andre, Hogan and Bruno on 10. What is really really difficult is trying to separate out how much of our idea of someone's character comes from their promos vs. how much comes from stuff they do in matches. Really, this is meant to be a rating of the latter without bringing promos into it. I'm struggling on that with Flair, Austin, and The Rock in particular. I do think both of their character work is "off the charts", but if we take the promos away, I'm not sure if I could justify having them ahead of Savage or Funk. Some other tough ones. I have DiBiase at 6 and Rude and Arn at 7. And this difference literally comes down to Rude's swivel move which -- and I'm thinking about when he tries to do it while he's injured in the Steamboat match -- just gives him scope to do some very memorable things. And in the case of Arn his amazing facials, and again one thinks of Steamboat coming in during that Clash 17 match, I mean Arn might be the best at stooging period (and I'm considering pushing him up to an 8 cos his score is low currently). And it's those fine margins making the difference of a point. Similarly, I think Kawada is going to end up being a 7 to Misawa's 6 because of his facials and ability to show disdain. Likewise Jumbo is on a 6 and Tenryu is on a 7 because of the latter's ability to register contempt. But yeah, it's the hardest category. And the one I'd expect others to have the greatest variance on. Shawn Michaels is another really tough guy for that too, some might argue he's a 9 or 10, others as low as a 2 or 3. I went with 5 and split the difference.

Pat Tanaka is a total dude. I mean, the guy is just cool and oozes cool. He also has a lot of good matches to his name. I gave this one four-stars on the AWA set: Mando Guerrero vs. Pat Tanaka (6/12/88) and this one ***1/2: Ken Patera & Brad Rheingans vs. Badd Company (3/25/89) There are also the Orient Express vs. Rockers matches to consider. And Tanaka was arguable "the worker" in any iteration of the Orient Express. I have not seen the Memphis stuff yet, but the idea of Tanaka against Tarzan Goto sounds awesome. There's also the ECW run. He could be a guy who might sneak on some ballots, and I'm kinda surprised he wasn't nominated already.

Adnan Al-Kaissie is best remembered as a manager, of course, but in the 1970s, he was a wrestler and a good one, who was particularly good at bumping at a time when some guys refused even to do the most simple of back bumps. However, his time as Billy White Wolf is most notable -- and I'd love to say I nominated him for this reason alone -- for how he split up with his tag-team partner Chief Jay Strongbow. Strongbow and White Wolf had been the tag champs. But doctors found a lump on Kaissie's neck, it was non-cancerous but he had to have an operation to remove it. Here's what he said: Kaissie was perfectly fine to wrestle, but used it as an opportunity to give up the tag belts and leave the territory because he just couldn't STAND to be with Strongbow. For THAT alone, he should be a consideration. However, in the AWA, we also saw him bounce off cages for fun and was really pretty good carrying his end in some of those matches, and it gives you a good glimpse of the worker that was. But really, his case is carried by the stuff with Strongbow. I also want to say that he's not the worst performer in the main event to Summerslam 91.

For those that have talked seriously about being "anti-workrate" and think about things like late-Andre as being an all-time great wrestler because he know what to do with limited tools, Ivan Putski presents an interesting test case. Some things to consider: - Putski was arguably more over than any current member of the WWE roster despite having virtually no detectable "tools" at his disposal, atheltic or technical. - He was the number #2 babyface in the largest and most financially successful US territtory in the 1970s, in an era when wrestling was doing very well around the country. - People talk about being able to generate maximum crowd response from minimal input. I am not even being facecious when I say this, but consider the levels of psychology and crowd control in this arm-wrestling match with Jesse Ventura: An anti-workrate classic? - Despite all of the above, Putski did have some good matches to his name. The one with the Funks that cropped up on NWA classics was perfectly fine, but his real standout came against Larry Zbyszko in 1980 at the Spectrum, a match that totally took us by surprise on Titans and is genuinely about **** He also has a decent match or two against Ken Patera out there. For those people who really believe that pro wrestling isn't about how many suplexes you can throw and who say psychology is ALL, Putski is a guy at least to consider. Say what you will about him, he "got it", and if you consider crowd response vs. actual input into a match, I'm not sure if there is a guy in history who has a more efficient ratio.

Tomorrow, I will be putting forward the best possible cases for each one.

They aren't jokes! I'll also just say that every single guy there has at least three memorable matches to their name. With the possible exception of Ranger Ross.

I thought lot of those matches you mentioned held up perfectly fine: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31793-jvk-reviews-pimped-matches-from-late-90s-10s/page-16&do=findComment&comment=5727370 I'm hardly a juniors type fan, but it strikes me that (as I so often think) revisionism went too far. So, y'know, not five-star all time classic or whatever they were pimped as at the time, but still damn good matches. Although I will say that Black Tiger tag you mention (if it was that match) was my fave out of that batch.

Okay, I don't object to giving him the 10; convincing arguments. It think it's maybe the 90s All Japan boys who will be affected by this but we'll see.

Before you do, it's first worth asking the question : "on a scale where Ric Flair is a 10 for variety, should Bryan also be worth a 10?" If we legit think the answer is yes, go ahead and name the 30. If we think no then I'll leave things as are, or else move the bar up again to 40 opponents which would likely bump Terry Funk down to a 9 and everyone else down one again. Serious question.

Fair point! I've just noticed that Pedro Morales has not been nominated either and legitimately he was probably a bigger star than either of them.

The L rating has problems that I've known about from the start. I think the main thing is that you can immediately see from a distance that Dustin's case is boosted by longevity and by the inevitable variety that goes along with that. And you can see from a distance that he's not going to threaten the big boys cos he's hurt by his great matches rating. You can be strong in 2 or 3 things, and it will get you so far, but the GWE must be strong in all 6. My main aim in doing this has been to eliminate the vagaries of "sentiment". Whether it is good feeling or bad feeling. That's why fucking Antonio Inoki is probably going to sneak in my bottom 10.

Dustin is a 10 no matter which way round we do it, so it doesn't matter.

With the extra years, Taue now joins these guys on 40 and leapfrogs both Dustin and Vader by virtue of his B (and G) ratings.

2004 seems about fair. So I'll change that now.

I think Iron Sheik was probably the biggest name / star who had not been nominated and seems like an oversight. Sadly, he's more famous today for getting arrested, taking drugs, and calling people Jabronis, but from 1979 till about 1985 he was probably one of the best workers in the world. Not just because he was a human suplex machine either. He was one of the most over heels in the USA. He impressed the hell out of us on Titans during his 1979 Great Hussein Arab run in WWF, he has a really memorable match with Dominic Denucci (BY FAR the best Dom has looked) and with Backlund, and is probably one of the forgotten stories of that year because Pat Patterson just wowed us more. He also had great and memorable runs in GCW and JCP, and he was over in both of them. I really like this match with Steamboat from 1980: The Slaughter feud is obviously what people remember and it is an all-time classic feud on a level that very few other candidates can boast of. Also some fun stuff in the 1985-6 tag run with Volkoff, although he does DROP OFF A CLIFF as a worker after that.