JerryvonKramer

Argue for a later cut off point and I'll probably give it to him.

By the looks of things exactly 1 place below Vader and 2 places below Bret Hart. I think Top 30 is probably a safe bet.

No, it's just a level of granular detail I can't really go into and a known problem. Other beneficaries of this quirk include Terry Funk, who does not have every break back to the ranch factored in and Ricky Steamboat who does not have time being pussywhipped by Bonnie factored in. The main guys who get screwed on that rating are older guys who we have footage of in the 1970s but who started their careers in the early 60s. If you notice I start ALL of them from 1969 because we have such limited footage from the 1960s. Victims of this include Inoki, Baba, The Destroyer and Dory. Nothing to be done really. Think of the ratings as "back of the paper napkin" calculations to help me rank rather than anything more grandiose.

'Goldust' Dustin Rhodes Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 7 Intangibles 4 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 1992-2010 = 18 years = 10 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Golddust") Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 9 40 Dusty Rhodes Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 9 Great matches 3 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to work technical matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Floirda, GCW, WWF, JCP, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 Variety = 7 31 Dutch Mantell Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Puerto Rico, GCW, Mid-South) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 3 19 Eddie Gilbert Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 3/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 2 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Mid-South, JCP) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 4 18 Greg 'The Hammer' Valentine Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 = 9 Intangibles 1 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 1975-86 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 7 35 Hiroshi Hase Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for northern lights suplex) = 10 Intangibles 7 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 1989-99 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (NJPW, AJPW, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 6 38

Adrian Street Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 5 Great matches 1 Length of Peak 1972-85 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Continental, AWA, Mid-South, Detroit, Florida, Calgary, United Kingdom) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 3 28 AJ Styles Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for innovation) = 9 Intangibles 3 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 2004-15 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (indies, TNA, Japan, WWE) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 7 39 Akira Taue Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 3/3 (+1 for "sense of danger") = 8 Intangibles 4 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 1991-04 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to singles matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 8 40 Alex Wright Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 1/3 = 3 Intangibles 1 Great matches 0 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 2 8 Antonio Inoki Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 9 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 1969-80 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, USA, North Korea) Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 6 33 Atsushi Onita Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 3/3 = 7 Intangibles 9 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 1989-99 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work non-gimmick matches +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 6 39 Bam Bam Bigelow Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 0/3 (+1 "agile for a big man") = 4 Intangibles 3 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, WCW, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 4 16 The Barbarian Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 1/3 = 3 Intangibles 2 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 3 11 Big Boss Man Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 "agile for a big man") = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Big Bubba") +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 6 24 Big Show Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 1/3 (+1 "agile for a big man") = 4 Intangibles 5 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("The Giant") +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 22 Bill Dundee Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1975-87 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +2 abilty to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Mid-South, AWA, JCP) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 5 34 Bob Orton Jr. Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for innovation) = 9 Intangibles 2 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1978-86 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +2 abilty to get over in multiple markets (Florida, JCP, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 7 32 Bobby Fulton Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 2 Great matches 4 Length of Peak [never one of the best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work singles matches +3 abilty to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Southwest, Mid-South, JCP, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 4 20 Brad Armstrong Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 0 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Badstreet") +1 ability to work tags +3 abilty to get over in multiple markets (South Eastern, GCW, Japan, JCP, Mid-South) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 3 15 'Flyin'' Brian Pillman Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 1/3 = 6 Intangibles 3 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1989-95 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Hollywood Blondes") +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Calgary, WCW, WWF, ECW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 6 29 Brock Lesnar Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 1/3 (+1 for incredible intensity) = 7 Intangibles 5 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 2002-16 = 14 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 5 34 Bruiser Brody Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 0/3 0/3 (+1 for knee drop) = 2 Intangibles 5 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 4 18 Buzz Sawyer Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 1/3 = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 1981-90 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, Mid-South, WWCW, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 3 26 Carlos Colon Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 6 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1969-87 = 18 years = 10 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 37 Chavo Guerrero (Sr.) Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 1/3 = 6 Intangibles 2 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 1975-85 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Mid-South, JCP, AWA, LA, Japan, Mexico) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 Variety = 3 27 'Gentleman' Chris Adams Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 1 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 1982-87 = 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WoS, LA, WCCW, Mid-South, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 5 24 Chris Jericho Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 5 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1997-2009 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Mexico, Japan, ECW, WCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 6 35 CM Punk Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 5 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 2002-2013 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (indies, ROH, TNA, WWE) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 8 37 'Mr. Perfect' Curt Hennig Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 1/3 (+1 for signature bumps) = 6 Intangibles 3 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1983-1991 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 7 31 Daniel Bryan Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for sheer violence) = 10 Intangibles 4 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 2002-2015 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (indies, Japan, ROH, WWE) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 10 46 Dan Spivey Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 0/3 = 2 Intangibles 0 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, WCW, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 3 10 Davey Boy Smith Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 0/3 = 4 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WoW, Calgary, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 6 22 David Von Erich Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 1/3 = 3 Intangibles 0 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WCCW, Florida, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 5 15 Dean Malenko Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for being "the man of a 1,000 holds") = 7 Intangibles 0 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1989-2000 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, ECW, WCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 29 Dennis Condrey Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 = 7 Intangibles 6 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1979-89 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, AWA, JCP) Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 5 30 Diamond Dallas Page Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 3 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 3 14 The Destroyer Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 = 7 Intangibles 5 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 1969-79 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, Japan, Canada) Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 Variety = 4 30 Dick Slater Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 1 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 1977-87 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, GCW, JCP, Mid-South, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 4 26 "The Magnificent" Don Muraco Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 0/3 = 3 Intangibles 3 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, LA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 5 17

Okay, I don't think I'm gonna have time to list out every single opponent for the V category. This is the most time-consuming thing and there are a LOT of people to mince through the system. So here is what is going to happen: I'm going to make an approximation on the V rating, and we can list them out if any of them are questioned. This is a time-saving measure otherwise I'm simply not gonna get this done in time. If anyone wants to scrutinise any one rating, we could list them out. ALL V ratings are hereby re-calibrated as per the above. Flair and Funk are the only 10s in the V category. Changes as follows: Bock from 10 to 9 Ted from 10 to 8 Misawa from 10 to 8 Shawn Micahels from 10 to 8 Vader from 10 to 7 Eddie from 7 to 6 Hansen from 10 to 9 Slaughter from 6 to 5 Bret from 9 to 7 Steamboat from 8 to 7 Backlund from 10 to 9 Hogan from 10 to 8 Savage from 8 to 7 Jumbo from 10 to 9 Tenryu from 10 to 9 Brisco from 7 to 6 Baba from 7 to 6 Abdullah the Butcher from 10 to 9 Adrian Adonis from 7 to 6 I'm happier with these ratings because they more accurately reflect the top end. This may well lock Flair and Funk as #1 and #2, but it is what it is. There was no way that the other guys on 10 should have been equalling either of them for that metric.

JBL has a shot at my list for those matches and for being pretty effective in his role as an ersatz Million Dollar Man. However, +1 for fighting Godzilla is not a legitimate metric in the A category. I also think there's an argument that JBL was one of the last old-school heels to get over in the modern WWE environment.

The Iron Sheik via Titans and WTBBP as well as 80s sets. How can he not be nominated?! Has great matches against Denucci, Backlund (in 79), Slaughter, Steamboat, and several other people. The greatest oversight? Good chance of making my list. Via Titans: Spiros Arion, Johnny Rodz, Dominic Denucci, Prof. Toru Tanaka, Waldo von Erich, Superstar Billy Graham, Baron Scicluna, Tor Kamata, Jerry Valiant, Chief Jay Strongbow, Jesse Ventura, Ivan Putski, Hans Schmidt I promise to comment in earnest on every single one of these. Not joke nominations. And every single one will get a BIGLAV rating. Via WTBBP: Ranger Ross, Pez Whatley, Marcus Alexander Bagwell, Ole Anderson, Manny Fernandez, Jimmy Garvin, Jimmy Valiant Via 80s sets: Sheik Adnan Al-Kasey, Greg Gagne, Doug Somers, Pat Tanaka, Brian Knobbs, Jerry Saggs, Master G / George Wells

I think he's gonna rank for me. Another case of negatives over-indexing in the estimation, he has a good collection of pretty good matches with a variety of opponents. The wrong ones were pimped.

There's a good chance Liger will be the top NJ worker on my list. And if he isn't it will be a close run thing between him and Fujinami. Quietly has been probably the biggest beneficiary of my recent 90s revisits / explorations.

Housekeeping Memphis d4 ****1/2 Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee (Loser Leaves Town) (6/6/83) **** Bill Dundee vs. Tommy Rogers (11/7/83) ***3/4 Fabulous Ones vs. The Moondogs (Stretcher Match) (5/2/83) Fabulous Ones vs. Bobby Eaton & Duke Myers (Hair vs. Titles) (5/16/83) ***1/2 Koko Ware vs. Tommy Rogers (10/24/83) Austin Idol vs. Stan Hansen (Texas Bullrope Match) (10/3/83) Fabulous Ones vs. The Moondogs (4/4/83) Dutch Mantel, Koko Ware, Bobby Eaton & Jaguar vs. The Grapplers & Bruise Brothers (12/10/83) **1/2 Bill Dundee vs. Assassin #1 (9/25/83) Bill Dundee vs. Terry Taylor (4/4/83) ** Rock N Roll Express & Bobby Eaton vs. The Moondogs & Jimmy Hart (7/25/83) Jerry Lawler & Austin Idol vs. Jesse Ventura & Stan Hansen (9/25/83) Austin Idol vs. Stan Hansen (Bunkhouse Match) (10/10/83) * Dutch Mantell, Steve O & The Fabulous Ones vs. Adrian Street, Jesse Barr & The Sheepherders (Stipulations Match) (3/28/83) DUD / not a match Fabulous Ones vs. Moondogs (6/13/83) ---- Still waiting for that Lawler match that breaks the 4.5 line. Memphis has a lot of fun stuff but in terms of in-ring quality it is on the lower end of the 80s sets for me so far -- I think even AWA had a higher average baseline. I suspect it is a promotion with better TV than actual matches. That said, Lawler vs. Savage is around the corner and I'm excited for that. Also, that Hansen run is super-duper disappointing.

I've decided to retire the letter ratings for this thread. I use star ratings on my shows and in all my other reviews. So I've gone through the entire thread and changed all letter ratings to stars. That was an hour well spent. FML.

Even though it involves doing every single person again, I'm toying with this: 30+ opponents = 10 26-29 opponents = 9 20-25 opponents = 8 16-19 opponents = 7 12-5 opponents = 6 10-11 opponents = 5 8-9 opponents = 4 6-7 opponents = 3 3-5 opponents = 2 1-2 opponents = 1 There needs to be more separation at the top.

I think I'm going to have to recalibrate the Variety rating because too many people are maxing it out. Dibiase is the latest one, because I think he should definitely get Taylor and Bob Sweetan (match on NWA Classics), which brings him up to 20 and a perfect 10 rating too. This don't seem right that so many people are acing that score, Flair has like another ten people who could be added, and I think it might be time to up the stakes and make the benchmark more difficult. I am thinking maybe 30 opponents = 10. Flair is not equal to Misawa or Ted or Hogan or Vader or Backlund when it comes to variety, he should by rights smoke all of those. And so the rating isn't right. It might be too late to change this, but the bar is too low currently. Either the quality of the "memorable match" needs to be increased or the number needs to be increased. There shouldn't be so many top trumps in the category.

Mid-South 5.1 Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (6/30/85) No commentary, which is always great for a Rock n Rolls match. Can feel like you are there. Morton vs. Flair can give you that feeling. Kind of a textbook example of how to do a Southern tag while building in great character work and developing a match gradually towards a hot finish. The Midnights have some very funny schtick. Condrey does some comedy stuff early, later there's a great bit where Eaton tried to prove to the ref he didn't pull Gibson's hair by appealing to Cornette -- ha ha, like he's an impartial judge. The R n Rs switch things up here, as Gibson played FIP with Morton looking for the tag. Gibson is very good in the role, but the match is made by Eaton's awesome offense. Great spot where Gibson hits a superplex for the hot tag and Eaton is selling that back as if he's been crippled and can't walk. These guys just knew how to work tag team matches. Midnights the consummate heel team, Rock n Rolls the consummate face team. I think this might be their best match in Mid-South. Great one. ****1/2 Mid-South 5.2 Ted DiBiase vs. Terry Taylor (7/3/85) There's some pre-match here, Taylor wants a shot at the North American title, but Dibiase suggests that he faces him instead for a the right to face the champ, who at that time was The Nightmare. Also, I do not think I've seen this match before, which is pretty rare when it comes to a Ted match and me. This is awesomely (and surprisingly) stiff and worked with some intensity. Taylor is very aggressive in this match and, of course, DiBiase makes him look like a million bucks while he's on top. The sequence on the arm is good. When Ted takes over, he hits some of his trademark fistdrops, and works dirty and heelish. Nice touch when he misses an elbow and re-injures the arm Taylor was working, although it doesn't really play into the end game, which instead is built around the figure-four. Excellent TV bout, which demonstrates the quality of MSW in 1985. ***3/4 I probably need to add Taylor as a "memorable opponent" for Ted, which does actually increase his overall score by 1. Also, between this and the Flair match, I can see why some were talking about Taylor as being underrated. Although that point seems to have died down these days. Mid-South 5.3 Ric Flair vs. Wahoo McDaniel (7/12/85) I reviewed this match here: here According to Pete, the date is wrong and it should be 7/26/85. If you haven't seen either, both are on NWA Classics and they kick all kinds of ass. ****1/2 Mid-South 5.4 Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death vs. Jake Roberts & The Barbarian (7/14/85) I think the Williams and DiBiase team has come to be underrated and I'd certainly take them over Doc and Gordy. I kinda wish we'd got to see Ted and Doc in AJPW together, just to see what Ted could be like leading the team there instead of being Hansen's little buddy. The Jake / Barbarian team are the babyfaces by the way. Fantastics come out and challenge the champs before the match. Pretty cool in this match as we get to see JvK hero, Ted, go up against Matt D hero John Nord, which is kind of a strange match up, and their little sequence together is a good demonstration of why Ted was such a brilliant heel, as he feeds the beast before wimping off and tagging out. Doc's character work in this one is also notable, because he has a lot to say from the apron and is very animated. Barbarian is pretty effective as a stand tall powerhouse babyface too. This is great once it settles down into the Jake FIP sequence, which is a role he's surprisingly pretty good at. Ted barks and taunts Jake, the total heel at all times. He works at a methodical pace, letting every move register the full impact. There's also that heelish mixture of nastiness and slight desperation to everything he does. This is how to work kids . Jake bleeds like a stuffed pig here, we have juice. And I liked the way Doc and Ted took turns to attack the cut, and the way that they made sure that Jake had just enough hope spots before the hot tag to keep the crowd stoked. And then when the tag does come they beat the tar out of Barbarian with stereo fistdrops until Jake comes in wielding a boot for the DQ. So heated and intense this. Pressure cooker atmosphere. I honestly love the hell out of this style of wrestling. Blood and guts and hatred, stiffness, sound psychology and storytelling, hot crowd, and really good work with everyone playing their roles well. Jake was very good as the FIP, they worked around Barbarian's limitations to perfection, Doc the enforcer and Ted the mastermind antagonist. Awesome stuff here. We need some more Mid-South love in general. The quality is just so high. All promotions are not created equal. In terms of in-ring work, after Crockett and All Japan, I think I'd have to have Mid-South next. In terms of the total package, taking in the TV and booking and everything, I might take Mid-South tops. **** Mid-South 5.5 Hacksaw Duggan & Dick Murdoch vs. Kamala & Kareem Muhammad (7/14/85) Two very fat black men take on known KKK sympathiser Dick Murdoch and Mr. USA himself, Jim Duggan. This has fun written all over it. Seemingly worked with Texas Tornado rules as no tags. This is just balls out action, brawling and mayhem. Duggan has got that caveman wildness and electricity and the crowd are just mental. Murdoch throws some sweet punches and Kamala is all wobble legs and cartoon selling, but less erratic than he often is. Seems more focused in his offense. Awesome brawl. Tulsa was one lucky city in 1985. ***3/4

Tonight, an hour of NJ, an hour of Mid-South and if I don't fall asleep first, an hour of Memphis. First hour: New Japan 5.1 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu (8/4/83) Some typical NJ matwork to start, nothing intricate but they work with a lot of struggle. Feels like wrestling made in Inoki's image: two guys in black trunks laying on the match... but to be fair it's not too boring. They build up to bigger moves down the finishing stretch. But I still can't really get into the Scorpion as Choshu's gamechanger, just because it never really seems like one. I've struggled to get into this feud much. This was about as good as their other encounters, but a good bit below the more action-packed and exciting match they had on 7/7/83. ***3/4 New Japan 5.2 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu (9/21/83) I really could have done without the early matwork in this one, bored the crap out of me here; less of a sense of struggle than last time. I mean yes, they are manoeuvring for position but I don't really care about that. It's meaningless manoeuvring. None of this stuff ever really plays into the match, it's just eating up 8-10 minutes and leading nowhere every time out. Pretty tiresome like the fifth like round. But then business really feels like it picks up when they bust out some strikes and Choshu locks in the Scorpion. Crowd is bonkers. Fujinami does some really effective selling in the Scorpion, good emoting and desperation from him to reach the ropes. Fujinami has a cool way of using drop kicks to keep Choshu at bay in these matches and it is a good basic strategy. He controls with the figure-four, which they stay in for a bit too long, before the action spills outside for yet another count out. This was the least of these matches for me so far in a series that continues to be pretty disappointing. Just waiting for Yatsu and friends to show up now in order to turn up the workrate a couple of notches. This stuff has paled next to the AJ 85-6 stuff so far. Less Inoki-style please, and more Choshu kicking ass and Fujinami running the ropes like a madman. The early matwork in this sucked my soul. I will say though that Choshu and his cronies do a great job in the post-match here as they rough up Fujinami in some strangely US-style booking. Killer Khan is there among others. I wish the action in the match was as hot as the action in the angle. It's like you have this super hot crowd, super hot feud, and then they get in the ring and trade arm bars for ten minutes. Just makes no sense to me. Where was the hatred, intensity and violence we saw in this post-match actually in the match itself? I think it is a fair knock. My suspicion -- and in fairness I felt this way watching the AJPW run too, where I wasn't enamoured by his singles matches -- is that Choshu needs his friends around to carry some of the workload. ***1/2 New Japan 5.3 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Killer Khan (11/3/83) This is much more like it as Fujinami is fired up, aggressive, intense and full of hate for Khan, who returns the favour by duly using his size to dominate the up and coming ace. This has a great bigger guy vs. smaller guy dynamic as well as a great heel vs. babyface dynamic. Honestly, this is more up my street than the Choshu stuff. I guess I like my wrestling baroque, like a Caravaggio painting. Heavy contrasts of darkness and light. Bold and obvious imagery. Dramatic scenes. Honestly, if I want subtlety then pro wrestling probably isn't the medium I want it in. And let us not confuse subtlety for depth. Here, Khan's general oafishness enhances the sense of danger for our hero. When he comes off the top with a knee drop, when he hits his awkward backbreakers and such suplexes: it feels genuinely precarious for Fujinami. Fairplay to Khan too, he takes a superplex, and works damn hard in this match. Fujinami is uber-spirited. Dug this a lot. If I wanted a match to try to get someone into Fujinami, I'd far more readily recommend them this than the two previous Choshu bouts. Great stuff. And actually another fine showing for Khan, he has a good dozen or so really memorable matches to his name. ****

I guess the point is that I don't think he's particularly great at "doing holds and going long". I mean, to my own list, it won't matter a whole ton, he's lock top 10. But I'm just putting some of my conclusions from watching the stuff out there.

Also, Tim, I should point out that context plays into things a bit too. I have a habit of being down on 70s-throwback matches in the 90s, because they pale next to the real thing, and don't feel very special to me. I mean we can look at Bret vs. Austin, 11/17/96, which I gave *** to and don't think is anything at all. Others think it's a top 100 match of all-time contender. My general view is, if you want 70s-style matches and want to see them done as well as they can be done ... just watch 70s matches between great workers of that era, they knew what they were doing.

Yeah, I didn't like the Jumbo match much and I'm a Jumbo mark. Had it at ***1/2 I was also lower than the average on 10/21/92 which I have at ***3/4 I just don't think he was very good at that style of match, and we know Jumbo was a master at it. 6/3/94 is obviously a masterpiece but wouldn't be my go to example for the sort of thing I'm describing.

Through to mid-97 and, Biglav ratings aside, if I was doing my list just purely on personal preference, I have Kawada #3 out of the three pillars currently. I think he has a capacity to stink up the joint on his off nights that I haven't seen from the other two (or indeed from the other top 10 contenders during their peak runs, save perhaps Bock in Japan, who was boring on occasion). Been trying to put my finger on why, and I think it comes down to the fact that he, more than the others, tries to have more 70s-style matches or segments of matches. He takes things to the mat more and therefore creates more downtime. While the focus of the Holy Demon Army is amazing in many of their great matches, in singles matches, I've seen Kawada do things that really make no logical sense. He's not able to build a match from a slow start to a hot finish, which is what the 70s guys he's trying to emulate really excel at. Stuff like the two hour-long matches with Kobashi and 6/6/97 with Misawa hurt him from that point of view because to me they demonstrate that he just can't do it. And I put all three matches down to him more than the opponent. My system can't factor in negatives, so all that is not going to affect his score and there's a chance he'll finish higher than Misawa. But if I was doing my list more like some other people are, just on my own hunches without any numbers, I'd have him third behind the other two for these reasons.

*kills the thread again*

One thing I've failed to do during this whole process, although I have tried several times, is get the talking point going about how Harley fathered the style of modern wrestling. Ray Stevens and his big bumping and influence on Flair can take some of the credit, but Harley is the guy who -- as far as I can see -- was doing multiple suplex variations long before anyone saw Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask. He's the original all-action wrestler. And he brought that style to Japan as much as anyone (Billy Robinson should get some credit too). If "influence" is something you care about (which isn't something I factor), it should be something to think about with Harley. But I haven't been really able to get anyone to bite on that point for about two years now. Ha ha.

Let me tell you where I am for 2026.

Ah damn, I was thinking of listening to this too.

Choshu is a 9. He loses the 1 because sometimes during his big matches, I feel like he goes to sleep. He has knock out charisma though and is currently on par with the likes of Randy Savage. Tenryu is a 7. He does a great line in contempt. Kawada I've not decided on yet, but it's between a 7 and 8, I think. He has some fantastic facial expressions and does disdain probably better than anyone in history. Fujinami will be lower, probably towards a 3 which is where I have Jack Brisco I think. Not entirely sure what to do with Inoki and my solution MAY well be not to rate him at all. But probably a 9 or 10 despite how much he bores the crap out of me. Also, and this is difficult to explain, it's not a scale from 0 to 10 out 10 it's a "GWE scale" where someone like Dory is a 0 and a Hogan is a 10. I hope that makes some sense. It's not that I think Dory has zero charisma, it's that in terms of him as a GWE candidate relative to all of the others, he's a 0. Imagine this somehow, if you can, as a means of rating five-star films against each other, as opposed to all the films ever made. Make sense?