Jimmy Redman

Not entirely related, but speaking of mookieghana, did we ever decide if and how the votes would be weighted?

I'm not agreeing with it. I'm just saying, doing something like that in the middle of a segment is what would have made them freak out, and comparing it to Vince fucking around with guys in the back 20 years ago isn't the same thing at all.

I think BTC would only work if both guys in the match were competing for the spot. If it's Reigns vs Goldust and only Reigns can win whatever they are trying to win, why is Goldust trying to run out the clock or win that badly? I don't mind it in theory. Again, in theory. I think it was introduced like that - the first time I can think of it happening is in Jan 2005 when they had all of the guys in the Elimination Chamber do BTC to decide who got to come out last. In that case, they all had different opponents, and whoever happened to win their match the fastest, won. Honestly I don't mind that. To me the incentive for the non-guy to win the match is firstly, to stick it to the other guy, but mainly because...it's a match. Why wouldn't you want to win? That's the same reason I hate it when the buzzer goes off and they stop wrestling and go to the back. Why? It's still a match! Why doesn't it count? If you accept the premise that there's no point in trying to win once the time goes, or if you're the other guy, then why do you want to win ANY match on TV that doesn't have tangible stakes involved? One of my biggest peeves with the whole thing is that they don't properly articulate that at the end of the day it's still a match on Raw, and you should still want to win it either way, even if you can't win the BTC challenge. The problem is that once the time goes, the air is let out of the match. But you need the timer there for drama. So...I don't know. If they did the BTC with the six guys int he EC and the fastest time gets to go in last and if anyone lost they would be replaced that would be good. Another reason I hate it is because it's so unfair. They are not all facing the same quality of opponent. Actually now that you mention it, that's exactly what happened: That first part I had totally forgotten about too, and gives extra incentive to keep wrestling even if you don't beat the time. Jesus, they got it right the first time, why have they screwed with it since then?

And again, they are all off TV in their private lives where they can do what they want. Not someone trying to horse around with Vince in the middle of a live segment. If this happens backstage, it would be nothing.

I think BTC would only work if both guys in the match were competing for the spot. If it's Reigns vs Goldust and only Reigns can win whatever they are trying to win, why is Goldust trying to run out the clock or win that badly? I don't mind it in theory. Again, in theory. I think it was introduced like that - the first time I can think of it happening is in Jan 2005 when they had all of the guys in the Elimination Chamber do BTC to decide who got to come out last. In that case, they all had different opponents, and whoever happened to win their match the fastest, won. Honestly I don't mind that. To me the incentive for the non-guy to win the match is firstly, to stick it to the other guy, but mainly because...it's a match. Why wouldn't you want to win? That's the same reason I hate it when the buzzer goes off and they stop wrestling and go to the back. Why? It's still a match! Why doesn't it count? If you accept the premise that there's no point in trying to win once the time goes, or if you're the other guy, then why do you want to win ANY match on TV that doesn't have tangible stakes involved? One of my biggest peeves with the whole thing is that they don't properly articulate that at the end of the day it's still a match on Raw, and you should still want to win it either way, even if you can't win the BTC challenge. The problem is that once the time goes, the air is let out of the match. But you need the timer there for drama. So...I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah you can't compare it to working in an office, because wrestlers interact physically with Vince on TV in a way that people who work in offices don't interact with their bosses.

Beat the Clock I find frustrating. I actually like the concept on paper. But the execution is often lacking, due to many things: - When only one guy in each match is competing for the BTC challenge, and the other guy doesn't stall his ass off. - When guys who are competing don't wrestle faster or act like they're in a hurry. Too often "urgency" looks like slowly rolling through Eddie/Dean reversals. - When they set the pace too quickly and you end up with a bunch of 4 minute matches between guys who would normally go 13. - When someone fails to beat the time, the buzzer goes off and the match just stops. Oh, OK. There was actually one BTC I liked, it was on Smackdown during a time when Smackdown was spitting workrate fire, and they set the time at like 10 mins, so you basically just had a bunch of the usual good 10 min Smackdown matches.

That was a great spot. There's also vs Punk at Survivor Series 2011.

Sami is a no brainer. As Generico he was a tremendous babyface, taking a goofy, surface-level character and making it one of the most enduring on the indies. He's a guy who has incredible charisma with a mask on, and is able to use body language and even his obscured facial expressions to emote better than most guys with uncovered faces. He could get over anywhere on the scene, work singles or tags, more traditional matches or insane modern spotfests, comedy stuff or blood feuds, all kinds of gimmick matches...the works. And then he comes to WWE, takes the mask off, and it turns out he's been hiding a wonderfully expressive face under it for all these years. Working as Zayn gives him another facet too, that more human, down to earth element. He comes off as such a real, genuine guy. And he brings that into his matches where you're not rooting for the goofy guy in the mask, but rooting for that super swell guy. You just can't help but want him to win things. He's an insanely great babyface. Matches with Owens, matches with Cesaro, Neville match, Steen feud, Steen team, the Chikara four-way, the rando PWG tags, just everything.

I will say, his best WWE stuff is very good indeed. vs Rey, Smackdown October 2010 The entire Christian feud, all over SD and the ladder match at ER 2011 vs Edge at WM27 is a great opener vs Cena, LMS at Vengeance 2011 in the broken ring - interesting premise but also a great gimmick brawl vs Cena, Christmas-themed gimmick match - tremendous fun vs Big Show, LMS Smackdown Jan 2013 vs Dolph, Payback 2013 double turn match And I could be forgetting stuff.

His best matches in WWE: vs Benoit, Smackdown May 2006 vs Benoit, Judgment Day 2006 vs Benoit, Smackdown Nov 2006 vs Rey, Smackdown Nov 2007 vs JBL, WM24 vs Matt vs Morrison vs Miz, ECW July 2008 vs Matt Hardy, ECW Nov 2008 Can't really think of much else, maybe someone else can. Finlay's appeal is more of an Arn-type one, where he is a great talent, never has a bad match and can drag something solid out of anyone, rather than having blowaway singles matches. Finlay and Rey had more matches in 2006 that you might like, but I wasn't a fan of those. He carried lugs like Lashley and Khali to watchable stuff. Some might be interested that he had a PPV match vs Regal at GAB 2006, but I have no idea if it was any good. There's a Cena match on Smackdown, Dec 2006, which probably depends on how much you like Cena. Now that I'm writing this all out, there's not as much there as I expected. Like I said he's always solid, rarely bad, but also not often outstanding. He's the ultimate mechanic, to reference that thread we just had. I'll probably rank him, but now I'm starting to wonder.

Of course not. Like I said, Rock essentially did the same thing to them last week, but they can't do anything about it but whinge. Titus is expendable. Kind of like how the first Wellness Policy suspension ever was...Harry Smith, who was in OVW and who they called up to the main roster just so they could suspend him and make him an example.

Seriously, they made about eight different matches in the space of two minutes at the end of that show, and they all sound interesting or awesome or both. Some of which include EVA MARIE. This women's division is nuts. The whole company too, but the women in particular. This is the women's division of my dreams back when I'd suffer through 2-minute TV matches that nobody else could possibly enjoy. I love NXT.

I think what people are ignoring is the fact that it was on live TV, whereas these other things people are comparing it to were in private and had nothing to do with the show. Not only did Titus startle a crazy old man, but he also interfered with a live TV segment that had nothing to do with him. Not saying I agree with it, but it is clearly a big part of why they're freaking out. For all of those people looking at the current roster of robots and saying "why don't guys just go off script and try to get themselves over?" This is why. Because if you do something unexpected it could backfire on you and you could be Titus. I mean, look at how pissed they were at The Motherfucking Rock going off script in a promo. Let alone a rando jobber doing something physical to Vince McMahon unexpectedly in the middle of a segment.

I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT, I love NXT...

Ted vs Pat Patterson, WWF 19.6.79 I agree that Ted is surprisingly good as a plucky young babyface. He bumps well, and when he was younger looks really tall and lanky, exactly like a young boy looks at that stage. He already throws a nice punch too and has nice fire. I liked how active he kept the arm work when he was on offense, really drilling the arm with knee drops and never sitting in a hold. I liked this a lot, especially compared to other WWE matches of the period. One thing I want to note, particularly for your benefit since I doubt you would have seen it, is that Babyface Ted looks exactly like Babyface Ted Jr. Like, exactly. You should watch the match/angle Ted Jr. had with Orton on Raw 19.10.09. All you need to know is that Ted is one of Orton's lackeys, he sneakily pinned Orton in a three-way the week before, and as punishment Orton orders Ted not to fight back in their match. I think it's a tremendous angle, and for one night Ted shows a crazy amount of emotion and fire. It went absolutely nowhere and they ended up turning Orton face instead, but as a one-off angle, I love it. Anyway that's just what Ted's fire reminds me of. Ted vs JYD, Mid South 24.6.82 I have no idea of the wider context here, just watched this on YT randomly, but it seems they're both faces and friends and somehow Ted inadvertantly got himself booked in a LLT with Dog. It's more of an angle than a match, but I really like the angle. You can see the progression: before the match Ted talks about firstly, not knowing if he can beat JYD, and secondly, having to feed his family and the risk to his career here. So then in the match, they're all shaking hands and having a nice friendly babyface match at first, then JYD kicks out of the powerslam, then he blocks the figure four, and only then does Ted load up the glove and BAM. He didn't want to resort to that because JYD is his friend, but in the end he had to, because like he said, he couldn't beat JYD fair and square. I liked how it all made perfect sense like that. Ted vs Magnum, Mid South 27.5.84 x 2 Taking both these matches together, they're both really good. The first is just a good, tight, snappy brawl, and the second one plays off the first with the cut opening up and gets a bit grittier, a bit more dramatic. I liked the first match having the sucker punch open (Ted sure likes using that spot) and the second has Magnum expecting it and he counters. I think Ted gives a great performance in the second match. It makes sense coming off the first one that he's desperate to beat him, and he comes off really determined, almost deranged. That little shake/scream he gives just after the cut opens is almost unsettling. I also loved him wrenching on the chinlock to get the blood to pour out. He was quite a fucker in this. On another note, I think it was in the first match that he took the gut punch coming off the top and sells it in the most preposterous way I've ever seen. As an aside, I've never been impressed much with Magnum in the ring either, but I liked him a lot in these too. Great punches, great fire, a ten minute brawl is basically the perfect match for Mag. It's the best I've seen him look outside of the cage match. Ted vs Flair, Mid South 6.11.85 This was an awesome angle. Awesome from everyone involved. Perfect way to turn Ted face. Firstly I loved Flair casually kicking Ted to the floor and watching on during the angle. Like "Eh, these kids want to fight amongst themselves, fine by me." The whole Murdoch attack/Watts update part of it ruled. I love how they sold the blood loss in this. Maybe it's on my brain since I gave blood yesterday, but blood loss isn't always sold well in wrestling. Like you can get lots of blood and make faces and get it worked over and what not, but you're not necessarily selling in your body language that you've lost a crazy amount of blood. Sometimes it does the opposite and guys get off on it and go on rampages covered in blood, which looks good, and the blood itself adds to the drama, but doesn't always get over the danger of bleeding (and the very real danger, since it's a real cut). But here, I loved the way it was sold. Ted was semi OK in the beginning, but as the match went on and the bandage came off opening him up, he just got weaker and weaker. By the time he hit the powerslam he couldn't even complete the cover. Sometimes that spot comes off as convenient (like a guy will be fine enough to run and hit a move, but OH, back to selling now, can't cover!) but here it was done expertly and they really earned it. Ted didn't show much fire in this match, but I like that as a choice since he was just so weakened that he didn't have it in him to fire up. He was barely able to hold his body up and survive. Also because his face turn wasn't really complete until afterwards. There's a great bump he takes at the end where Flair sends him over the rope and head first into the rail. That was nasty. As was the brainbuster on the concrete. Jesus. All in all just a super match and angle. Ted vs Dick Murdoch, Mid South 31.12.85 & 1.86 Had to watch these after that. I like the spot where Murdoch jumps over the rail to get him, it was a good variation of the "heel gets chased around the ring, slides in and stomps the following face" spot. In fact all the best stuff in these matches happened outside the ring: Murdoch's really violent neck snaps on the rope, and his crazy chair shots too. In the Jan match in particular he looks like he's literally murdering Ted, smashing the edge of the chair right on the back of his neck. Ted is a babyface now and fires up accordingly. I'm not sure on the use of the loaded glove, I mean I'm willing to excuse it as either "babyface stooping for revenge" or "I established this as a heel now I'm a face so it's a face move", but it just seems weird to me that he still needs to cheat to win. Anyway, these are some more good, tight brawls.

I love Paris 1919 so much as an historical event that I'd probably like an...album? named after it no matter what it sounded like. But again we seem to have wandered from the point. I'll talk about the matches soon once I finish watching stuff. Thanks all for clearing up the confusion.

Ahh ok. The same match is on YT labelled as the OKC match, that's why I'm confused.

Are you sure? Looks like the OKC match to me...

Yeah I will have Arn a good deal higher.

You know I kind of see Hennig in a similar boat to Ted. - Awesome character and skits in WWF, did his job as a bumping heel but maybe not so much with the matches. - Had better matches pre-WWF when they were a featured performer in their territory. - Better known as a heel but surprisingly good babyface. - Got injured in the early 90s and that was basically that. The more I think about it the more I like the comparison. I see Ted/Duggan and Hennig/Bock about the same level as series of matches. Hennig/Rose to Ted/Magnum. I like the Bret/Perfect matches so maybe they're equivalent to the Ted/Savage matches. Hennig/Stan as a cool one-off match vs Ted/Patterson. In terms of output there are a lot of similarities. Wonder what you'd make of that Parv. I have them on about the same level which means I'm considering them, but not sold one way or the other yet.

He's like Flair because if people say he's like Flair over and over enough times, it becomes canon. He has nothing in common with Flair apart from being a perennial heel champ portrayed as wealthy. Flair made everyone look like a million bucks, almost too much so, and Hunter is The Almighty Huntor. I think the Shelton match is the closest he's come to actually resembling Flair.

Shawn vs Batista Stretcher Match is actually really good, mainly because - as with most awful concepts - they largely ignored the stretcher and just had a street fight, and then just used it to have the finish at the end. Anyway, my time has come. Now, TNA is a goldmine of shitty stips. People have mentioned the reverse battle royal, Xscape Cage, Feast or Fired, but undoubtedly the absolute worst stipulation in the history of organised human society is the abomination that was... The Knockouts Lockdown Lockbox Challenge! Allow me to explain. In the words of Jeremy Borash at the time, "the rules are simple". Tara (Victoria) was Knockouts Champ at the time and was technically defending the title in this match. There are four Lockboxes. One has the Knockouts Title. One has a title shot of your choosing, like MITB. One has Tara's pet spider that she brought to the ring at the time. One has an order to go to the ring and strip down to your bra and panties. Yes, this is a Russo match, how could you tell? So there's an 8-man tag team match between the girls - Beautiful People & Daffney vs the babyfaces (Tara, Angelina, ODB and...someone else). Elimination rules, but whoever gets a pinfall gets a key to one of the boxes, and also has to leave the match along with whoever they pinned. So four girls get the four keys in the match, I'm pretty sure it was Tara, Angelina Love, Velvet and Daffney. So the match ends, and then later on IN THE MAIN EVENT SEGMENT OF IMPACT they use the keys to open the boxes. So Tara goes first and gets...her spider back. This is how she lost the Knockouts Championship of the World. She seems inordinately happy about this, because she loves her pet spider more than the title. Angelina gets the title. This is how she - a babyface mind you - wins the Knockouts Championship of the World. By opening the right box by chance. Velvet gets the title shot which at least furthers her feud with Angelina. Daffney, of course, gets the order to strip. She eventually goes to the ring, reluctantly, but before she can strip Lacey Von Erich runs down and does her own striptease voluntarily. Because she's a slutty whore. Like all women amirite. This is how the show goes off the air. To this day I hear the words "the rules are simple" and just lose it, because it takes me back to this show. Just so amazing on all of the Russorific, TNA levels.

He'll be on my ballot. I kind of hate saying it because it feels like a dirty thing to say, but it's true. Of the guys in the "I can't stand you most of the time but you did have those flashes of brilliance and I'm ranking people on the good times" category, he comes out comfortably ahead of Edge. His highs are simply much higher. He and Angle seem about lateral to me. He just has a bunch of great matches that I can't ignore. I said this about someone recently and it applies here, in that his bloated epic style makes for dross a lot of the time, but sometimes a bloated epic works and you end up with an...epic. These are the things I think about when it comes to Hunter's candidacy: vs Shawn, Summerslam 2002 vs Shawn, Raw December 2003 - I know Hunter/Shawn matches are incredibly popular here, but for me these are two that really hit the mark. They're both "about" Shawn, but Hunter also does his job perfectly as the heel champ to play off. At Summerslam especially he is a total asshole, and is great targeting the back and trying to get this dude back into retirement, while at the same time selling Shawn's comebacks like a million bucks. The Raw match is just a great, long title match. My favourite part is towards the end where they have escalated things so much and are selling so well that they get a punch over as a nearfall. As an aside, I re-watched the Rumble 2004 LMS for the first time since it happened recently, and to be honest I thought it was fine. I was expecting a disaster, and it was a perfectly fine brawl that didn't exactly touch greatness, but didn't suck either. I wonder what others would think if they saw it now. vs Shelton Benjamin, Raw March 2004 - This is honest to God one of my favourite ever matches. It's like...I dunno, it's like if Hunter's usual output is Kansas, and for one night a hurricane plants us in the middle of Oz, where everything is in colour and Hunter actually works like we want him to work. Like he THINKS he works. I love everything about this match, including Hunter's performance. vs Orton, No Mercy 2007 - This seems somewhat forgotten to history but this was after Cena went down in late 2007 and they crowned a new champ at the PPV. Booking-wise it was all a bit of a masturbatory exercise (Orton handed the title, loses it immediately to Hunter in a match, only gains it back in LMS after Hunter had to wrestle Umaga in the interim) BUT if you ignore that aspect (as we often have to do) the match itself is an awesome war. Orton was really on in this period, and more to the point, Hunter is actually really good in this. It might be his best ever babyface performance in the ring. vs Undertaker, WM27 vs Undertaker, WM28 - Again, I know it's not a popular opinion around here but I absolutely, completely, utterly love the Taker matches. I think they are exactly as epic as they claim to be. I probably like them more than Hunter does. Like I said above, sometimes a bloated epic is exactly what's needed, and at this point in time Taker's Mania matches had become mythical in proportion, and required exactly this kind of unabashed bombastic overkill. I love the stories, I love the way they work the matches, I love the big spots and the nearfalls (Hunter's terrified crawl away from Taker after he kicked out of his Tombstone at WM27 is literally my favourite nearfall reaction of all time) I love all the overblown theatrical bullshit. Nothing beats that shit when they get it right. Plus there's a bunch of great matches with people along the way - Foley, Rock, Austin, Jericho, Benoit, Batista, Flair, Cena, Big Show, Jeff Hardy...I'm sure there are others I can't even remember. And sure he's had all of the help in the world to do that, but whatever the reasons underlying his resume, the resume is still there. Honestly, without the Taker matches and the Shelton match, I'd have Hunter closer to Edge, and right at the bottom in a kind of "you're just there but damn you have all these great matches damn you" way. But his best performances get him to the next tier with me, because his best performances are really very good indeed, and he shows flashes of the brilliance that he thinks he has all the time. I just wish he would work like that all the time. But his best stuff probably gets him out of my bottom 10, is what I'm saying.

I must have absolutely nailed my cherry picking, because I don't think I've yet seen a disappointing Andre match. At least not a disappointing Andre performance. Actually no, I can think of the weird non-co operation "match" with Maeda. That was hideous. And I don't like Andre vs Hogan in 1980 - I reconcile that by knowing that they got it right later on, and I've never much cared for early heel Hogan. So what exactly are we talking here, WWF cards of the early 80s? I might be a good sport and look at them. But at the same time, I'm not sure it would affect my ranking of him all that much. My criteria - vague and nebulous as it is - skews far more towards looking for positives, rather than negatives. Looking at peak, positive attributes, best matches, and trying to answer the question "what is he really capable of?" I get that from him already, and seeing his worst matches won't take that away. In the case of Andre, I'd never knock him for inconsistency, if that's what I found. The man was in a unique situation in regards to his body, and you get the feeling that pretty much anything he managed to do in the ring was the result of a brief victory in a struggle with nature. Especially once he started to break down. It's amazing he was able to work at all. And again, his late WWF career shows just how much he was able to do even when handicapped physically so severely. If he had to mosey through his early 80s WWF career, so be it. I don't think him being mediocre or whatever in one run takes away from him being awesome in almost all of his other runs.