Jimmy Redman

Maybe they wanted it done on a taped show first to assuage any fears about the move? Or maybe it just so happens that there was no cause for AJ to hit a Styles Clash yet - between the Rumble being crowded, and the first Jericho match ending on a roll up, and we're all reading too much into it. Nobody watches Smackdown anyway, so the first one on Raw will still be a good moment I assume.

This is one of those times when I just think to myself...imagine trying to explain WWE/the wrestling business to an outsider.

The whole thing about "they know they have to push Reigns for business" falls down when you consider that less than 24 hours ago, and also for like months and months beforehand, they went to extraordinary lengths to rob him of the title and not have to have him as their champion. It's insulting in a narrative sense that they can do all that, and then once it's done, turn around and say "oh we need Roman for business, better stick him right back in a title match!" It makes zero sense. You didn't think of business at any point in the last three months? They're doing it because it's wrestling and in wrestling the anti-authority babyface still manages to stay employed and get title shots or else there'd be no show.

There's sort of a Catch-22 with a certain amount of fans when it comes to booking Reigns. If they present him as dominant on TV and he wins all the time, it looks like they're pushing him too hard. If they present him as an underdog on TV and The Authority screws him all the time, it looks like they're pushing him too hard. Because we've been taught that when WWE really want to push a guy as the top face, they book them to be in conflict with Authority. In cases where it makes sense (Austin, Bryan) it works. In cases where it makes no apparent sense (Reigns, whenever they do it with Cena) it just looks like they're trying too hard to recreate Austin. So it comes off like a push, instead of a story.

I will say this, I'll be putting Liger higher on my ballot than I ever thought possible like two months ago. I've completely turned around on him.

Which Japanese wrestler will you rank highest? Kawada. It's funny because in my mind when I separate guys into categories I put Stan in the Puro section, and I have him higher, but if we're talking natives then Kawada. Which Japanese wrestlers do you expect to make your list? Not really sure yet, but the number looks to be closer to maybe 30 people. Who was the best of the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s to come out of Japan? 70s I haven't seen enough to say. 80s I haven't seen a lot of NJ so Jumbo. 90s Kawada. 00s Probably Kobashi. 10s I have no earthly idea. Who was your favorite Ace? I can't decide between Misawa and Liger. Who was your favorite top challenger? Kawada. Who was your favorite under the radar guy? Kazuo Yamazaki. Who was the best at their peak? This is a hard one. Maybe Tamura 97-98. Who has disappointed you the most? Probably Riki Choshu, in the sense that I went in thinking I would like him and ended up...not seeing the big deal. I do need to see more, but I won't prioritise him before the ballot which means I probably won't rank him at all.

Looking at his GWE thread, as well as the kind of feelings he's stirring up in people now, I may be the high vote on Chris Jericho, which I wasn't expecting because I don't really feel like a big "fan" of his. But this board compared to the world at large and etc.

There was nothing more symbolic of JBL's deterioration as an announcer than during the opener. Ambrose and Owens were in the middle of a bomb throwing war, and Ambrose throws a chair at Owens so hard that it wraps around his head. JBL: Reminds me of that old Mork and Mindy joke - that's not how you use a chair! Well, OK. The JBL of 2006 would have been screaming about these two warriors killing each other, wrestling like they're in someone else's bodies and whatever. Current JBL just makes jokes and stupid arguments and says Maggle a lot.

The nature of literary criticism aside, I've been finding it hard to really put into words what my personal criteria is for GWE. Or if I even have a coherent criteria, for that matter. When I compare a guy whom I've grown up on and experienced their whole career, with hundreds and hundreds of performances to evaluate, to a guy that I've just discovered and have seen a handful of matches of...I feel completely comfortable ranking both guys, but a judgment on them comes from two completely different places. I guess what I can boil it down to is this. When looking at a guy I ask myself, what are you capable of? In a broad sense that means focusing on what I have seen, and not worrying about what I haven't. It also means focusing on the positives, on reasons why I should rank someone rather than reasons why not. If I've seen someone have a dozen matches and think they're awesome, I'm not worried about seeing a hundred more matches to see just how consistent they were over a number of years. I can already see what they're capable of. And if I've seen a guy have hundreds of matches, and think they're awesome in a certain number of them, then again, I can see what they're capable of. That "what" can be any number of things - their very peak performance, a laundry list of good/great matches, a certain year or run when they were awesome, a style of match they mastered, an overall package as a worker...anything. But now that I'm starting to think about a list and wonder who to rank and where to rank them, I find myself asking myself that question more than anything else. What are they really capable of?

I have no idea why this is an issue, or a thread. Headliners have never been able to be smaller than they are now, and AJ looked fine.

Main event of WM33!!!

For fucks sake.

Orton at 30?

I nominated him, again in a kind of "tell me more" kind of way. The impression I get from his run on top is that he did super box office but people don't think his matches are great, or think he's been carried to them. Kind of like the Cena argument. Maybe it's because I am a fan of Cena types, but I've really enjoyed a lot of his stuff from that 2005-07 boom period. Good stuff with Casas, Averno, Perrito, etc. So I guess I'm asking for more thoughts, and what there is to his career in Mexico post-boom. Obviously the Sin Cara run is what it is, and he seems like a total fuckwit, but yeah I think his run on top is worth exploring.

I'm guessing/hoping the three way is at Fastlane and Sasha/Charlotte at Mania. Sasha Motherfucking Banks.

OK I popped huge for the Xavier Woods Goldeneye line.

Try writing that with a straight face five years ago! What a time to be alive.

I don't think I've once given a single thought about how anyone else is going to view my list. Beyond laughing about how silly it might look to someone else. But I don't think anything could affect my decision making process less than "what would the other voters think about this?"

Would you have been mad if they had ranked Illmatic (or substitute whatever you think is the top rap album) and no other rap though? I think your example is a little different. MBDTF would be kind of equivalent to ranking El Barbaro Cavernario or some other currently-hip luchador who has come along in recent years, while ignoring Casas and all the other classic lucha guys. You're not doing that. You're starting with Illmatic and [insert], and just haven't got much further than that. I dunno. I think if I was a lucha fan I wouldn't give a damn if you ranked Casas and nobody else, if that's where you were in your lucha viewing.

The way I feel is that, I don't need to have seen all the lucha to know that Negro Casas is great. The same way that I don't need to have seen all the World of Sport to know that Jim Breaks is great. The same way that I don't need to have seen all the American wrestling to know that Ric Flair is great. I admire the ambition for completeness, but I also find it limiting in that it's virtually impossible to achieve. I thought the same about Loss' early worries about wanting to extend the deadline until he was comfortable that he'd seen enough of everything. Nobody will ever see enough of everything. How much lucha, for example, would you need to see to feel comfortable about ranking guys? And whatever amount that is, isn't that still being unfair to the lucha that you haven't included? When would it ever be "enough"? We're not ranking styles, we're ranking wrestlers. I feel like you can watch a wrestler, see what he can do, and be able to rank him for a poll without having seen every one of his peers. And at the end of the day we have to compare them to people outside their own little genre anyway. This isn't the WON HOF ballot, a vote for someone isn't necessarily a vote against everyone else in their world that you didn't rank. You're just saying hey, I think this guy is great. That's just my take though, and like I said I do admire the desire to be thorough. In part because I just don't have that in me anymore.

I feel like there could be a couple of people who vote for Breaks and no one else from WoS.

A lot of the points I'd like to make about Jeff have already been covered by people in this thread. Namely, a. He was an awesome seller. I don't think he gets enough credit for this because people associate TLC-type stuff as no-selling, but he was great at it. He bumped all over the place and ate offense like a champ, and he was also really great at showing the damage of a match, showing all over his face and in his movements just how much he was hurting. I hope people don't think he was a guy who'd jump up to get to the next ladder spot, because that's so far from what he actually was. He'd push through the pain to get up, to run, to climb, to leap off something. b. funkdoc nails it about Jeff Hardy's tragic flaw: the guy who is determined to be a daredevil and be spectacular, even if it costs him his health, or costs him the match. There's a great match with the Hardyz vs Cade and Murdoch on Raw after a PPV, and the Hardyz had worked a ladder match at the PPV the night before. Both guys come out selling like hell, and are defending their tag titles while they can barely walk. And they both work the match in a way that basically says "fuck it, we're the Hardy Boyz, we got this far by flying around and jumping off things, we can't stop now" and they just soldier on with their daredevil offense, even though it's clearly killing them. But it's the only way they know how to be, they're two backyarders from rural NC who can beat guys by flying around and taking risks no one else will take. They HAVE to work like that if they want to keep these titles. Jeff always works like that. He's an ordinary looking dude who learned how to wrestle on his trampoline, who gets further than anyone expected because of the risks he's willing to take. And they fuck him up, but he has to keep taking them, because there's no other way. And also, if he's honest, because he likes it. He can't help himself. He likes the rush, he likes the pop of the crowd, he likes knowing that he can jump off things nobody else can jump off. c. He was really, really good during his second WWE stint - 2006-09, with a laundry list of good and great matches for the "body of work" type people. He also has a lot of good feuds with people too - Nitro, Umaga, Edge, Punk. vs Johnny Nitro - Unforgiven 2006 vs Johnny Nitro - Raw 11/06 (Ladder) w/ Matt vs MNM at D2D 2006 w/ Matt vs MNM vs Londrick vs Regal/Taylor at Armageddon 2006 (Ladder) vs Johnny Nitro - Raw 1/07 (Cage) w/ Matt vs MNM - Rumble 2007 w/ Matt vs Cade & Murdoch - Backlash 2007 w/ Matt vs Cade & Murdoch - Judgment Day 2007 w/ Matt vs WGTT - ONS 2007 (Ladder) w/ Matt vs Cade & Murdoch - Raw 6/07 vs Umaga - GAB 2007 vs Umaga - Raw 1/08 (Cage) vs Shawn Michaels - Raw 2/08 vs Chris Jericho - Raw 3/08 vs Umaga - One Night Stand 2008 (FCA) vs John Cena - Raw 7/08 vs Hunter - No Mercy 2008 vs Undertaker - Smackdown 11/08 vs Hunter vs Edge - Armageddon 2008 vs Rey vs Jericho vs Kane - Smackdown 5/09 vs Edge - Extreme Rules 2009 (Ladder) w/ Rey vs Jericho/Edge - Smackdown 6/09 (Cage) vs Chris Jericho - Smackdown 7/09 vs John Morrison - Smackdown 7/09 vs Punk - Summerslam 2009 (TLC) vs Punk - Smackdown 8/09 (Cage)

I feel sorry for anyone who didn't have access to Smackdown in the latter half of the 00s, because Smackdown in the latter half of the 00s was amazing. It started beating the crap out of Raw for quality matches by the end of 2005, and from late 2007-09 it was in such a groove as a real alternative to McMahons Millions/Guest Host/bullshit era Raw, because the brands were largely separate still, there was so much less bullshit on SD and you were always guaranteed like at least one really good match per week. Smackdown was my favourite show for so long. The death of the brand split killed me.

Off the top of my head, post-TLC era. vs Eddie - Smackdown 9/02 (No DQ) w/ Rey vs Angle/Benoit - No Mercy 2002 w/ Rey vs Angle/Benoit - Smackdown 10/02 (2/3 Falls) vs Orton - Vengeance 2004 w/ Christian vs Shawn/Orton - Raw 2/05 vs Shawn - Raw 2/05 (Street Fight) vs Matt Hardy - Unforgiven 2005 (Cage) vs Flair - Raw 1/06 (TLC) vs Foley - WM22 (Hardcore) vs HHH vs Cena - Backlash 2006 vs RVD - Vengeance 2006 vs Cena - Summerslam 2006 vs Cena - Unforgiven 2006 (TLC) w/ Orton vs DX - NYR 2007 vs Shawn - Raw 1/07 (Street Fight) vs Cena vs Shawn vs Orton - Backlash 2007 vs Orton - Raw 4/07 vs Undertaker - WM24 vs Undertaker - Summerslam 2008 (HIAC) vs Matt Hardy - Smackdown 11/08 vs Cena - Backlash 2009 (LMS) vs Jeff Hardy - Extreme Rules 2009 (Ladder) vs Rey Mysterio - Smackdown 6/09 vs John Morrison - Smackdown 6/09 vs Jericho - WM26 vs Rey vs Kane vs Alberto - TLC 2010 vs Dolph Ziggler - Royal Rumble 2011

He'll be WAY lower than where lot of other people seem to have him, but I can't not include him. I've liked what I've seen from early 90s WCW, I like the Booker run in 2002, and I love his 2013 run with Cody. Really good tag team worker, really good babyface worker, really good TV worker. He's great at timing and peaking the hot tag just right.