Jimmy Redman

No I know, and it's not the best example, but I guess my point was that if you go into shoot style having never seen a shoot style match before, you can watch one and sort of..."get" why it looks the way it does. They're grappling, putting on subs and striking in a way that looks vaguely similar to MMA. It's vaguely familiar, at least, I think. Whereas in comparison, watching a WoS match for the first time, you have the rounds, the different way they move around the ring and bump, the lack of traditional American wrestling moves, the light-hearted, gentlemanly vibe, and etc. It's all world's away from what we're used to recognising as a wrestling match. Same thing with lucha. They hit the ropes different, they bump differently. Matches are 2/3 falls, and falls happen suddenly or multiple guys are pinned simultaneously or one after the other. Tagging is different. They treat mask removing, low blows, piledrivers and submissions differently. The flow of the match is different.

I'm curious about the difference between lucha and WoS. Those two are probably the styles that are as far removed as possible from the American wrestling that we're all used to. Along with shoot style I guess, although with the rise of UFC we kind of have a template to work from when watching shoot style stuff. I'm someone who got into WoS almost immediately. I have no idea why I found it so easy to get and lucha so hard. I can't explain it. Maybe it is a cultural thing, because WoS is so completely...anglo. Plus English commentary, as you say. I don't know.

There's the added pressure of Bryan not being able to work and thus make the money he should be making at the same time.

Mistico/Sin Cara/Whatever Name He Is Now There are some reviews in these posts. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-55-a-decent-mistico-match/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-33-2005/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-34-2006/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-40-2007/

Seen that this has become a discussion about lucha in general, this seems like as good a place as any to say that I was always one of those people who couldn't get into lucha. I have tried many times, with all sorts of matches. I mean I've probably watched MS1 vs Sangre like four different times now, trying to understand what makes it a ***** match, because I just don't see it. For an example. I've never been a lucha guy. But recently, just in the last couple months even, I am slowly starting to "get" lucha. I can sit through it and enjoy it if it's enjoyable, and more to the point, I can see lucha conventions as just...conventions now, instead of baffling departures from what I'm used to seeing in wrestling. It was more a case of patience than perseverance with me, since I tried and tried and it didn't work, and then one day I watch some random match (can't even remember which one now) and it just sort of clicked. BUT, that's not to say that now that it's been unlocked that I love it all. Lucha brawls, which are a favourite thing for many people here, still don't interest me much. I can't get around the pimped 10s stuff like maestro matches or old man brawling. I'm still yet to see what makes Dandy so special. What I do like is trios matches. I like shtick, I like comedy. I like dive trains. I like movement. I like cool rudo beatdowns. I like pretty moves. I like that one super hot pairing that keeps boiling over in the middle of a trios. I like asshole finishes. I like title matches with epic finishing stretches. Once I got into lucha enough to where I could enjoy a match on its own merits, instead of watching it trying to "understand" it, I started to figure out what exactly I liked and disliked within lucha. I guess my point in saying all of this is that if you're one of those people that "don't get" lucha, I was just like you. If I can manage to somehow get into it, it might click for you one day too. And if not, whatever. I survived all that time not really caring about lucha, and I was fine for that. Also, huge shout out to Matt D because while reading a post doesn't really mean you're going to like watching a match, this post is the most useful one I've seen on the background, and what you need to keep in mind and really accept about lucha going in. To get this back on topic, I'm starting to figure out WHO I like and dislike in lucha as well. So far these are the guys I have in consideration: Atlantis, Blue Panther, Brazo de Oro, Super Porky, Dandy, Emilio Charles, La Fiera, Fuerza Guerrera, Hijo del Santo, La Parka, Negro Casas, Octagon, Perry Aguayo Jr, Pirata Morgan, Psicosis, Satanico, Super Astro I probably won't rank all of them, and some other names could come into it as I discover them, but that's where I'm at right now.

I'm 25 and I have no idea what the hell you kids are talking about.

She won the cruiserweight belt in 2004.

I think you can roll your eyes at a nominee, without actually posting just to say that you're rolling your eyes. I think we can all be more constructive than that.

Batista is a guy who has a longer list of matches than you'd think on the surface. vs Hunter - Vengeance 2005 (HIAC) w/ Rey vs MNM series on Smackdown, late 2005/early 2006 vs Undertaker - WM23, Backlash, SD Cage Match, Cyber Sunday and Survivor Series 2007 vs MVP - Smackdown throughout 2008 vs Shawn - ONS 2008 (Stretcher Match) vs Cena - Summerslam 2008, WM26, Extreme Rules 2010, OTL 2010 vs Rey - Smackdown late 2009 That MVP series is something I had forgotten about until this moment. It's the randomest thing on paper but God damn if they didn't have a really good series of matches on Smackdown. I think it was early 2008. For some reason they meshed really well together. Speaking of, he and Undertaker had insanely good chemistry together. Every match of theirs was good stuff. What's even cooler about it was how unexpected it was. By early 2007 Batista hadn't really had a great match since the Hunter HIAC, and Undertaker wasn't in a good place then either in terms of great matches. When Batista defended the belt against Kennedy at the 2007 Rumble, it was Ken Kennedy who dragged him kicking and screaming to a good match, and I'm not kidding. So when Dave claimed before WM23 that he and Taker were going to steal the show it was laughable, given their form at the time and Cena/Shawn being the main, but then they went out there and just killed it, and it was a real revival for both guys as in-ring workers. He always worked well with Rey, whether as a little buddy tag team, or turning heel on him and ripping him to shreds. I really like that period, there's a match they have on SD just before Dave's heel turn, and they work it face vs face but you can see Batista getting increasingly frustrated as the match goes on and he can't put him away. He really projects that sense of "yeah he's cute and everything, but come on guys, this midget isn't on my level" which is a key part of his heel turn when he finally snaps; his incredulity that Rey thinks he can compete with him, and his embarrassment that Rey actually CAN compete with him. There are a lot of positives to Batista. Like I said, a lot more meat there than you'd expect at first glance. I'm not sure if I've talked myself into voting for him, but he's in the conversation.

AJ to me is a perfect example of a statement that has been tossed around recently - wrestling isn't a zero sum game. There's sometimes a false dichotomy that says that a wrestler is either spot-heavy and mindless, or less-is-more with excellent psychology. It doesn't have to be one or the other, and AJ is a guy who has both sides to his game: a fast pace and cool highspots, as well as babyface selling and neat psychology. Portrayals of him as a spot monkey (which have been tempered by his stint in a more fashionable company in NJPW) are really missing the mark. He stands out from a crowd of his peers precisely because of his babyface fire, timing of big spots, his selling. He adds a certain...gravitas to matches that you wouldn't expect. He's great as a babyface ace of a division, great as an underdog against a bigger dude, great in workratey stuff, great in spotty exhibitions, great as a bumping heel, great as a fired up face in a grudge match, great as a tag worker, great jumping off high places. His 2005 is just immense. A laundry list of the best matches is impressive enough, but it also doesn't quite convey just how good he was on TV in basically any random match throughout the year, and how effective he was at transitioning from X Division ace to heavyweight champ and back to X Division ace ready to put over the next X Division ace, all within a matter of months. He held that whole promotion together that year. AND that's not even getting into the good stuff he was doing outside of TNA in 2005, like the Rave feud. But his best matches in 2005 include: vs Petey vs Sabin - Final Resolution (Ultimate X) vs Chris Daniels - Against All Odds (30 Min Ironman) vs Abyss - Lockdown (Cage) vs Sean Waltman - No Surrender vs Samoa Joe - Sacrifice vs Joe vs Daniels - Unbreakable vs Daniels - Bound for Glory (30 Min Ironman) vs Joe - Turning Point In fact I'm almost just listing every PPV match he had that year. Which should tell you something. It's really one of the best calendar years of the 21st century.

Apart from the last minute watching and finalising my list, what I want to do during this home stretch is actually discuss the nominees more. I've been sitting on the periphery of pretty much all the talk on specific nominees, mainly because I wanted to keep as open a mind as possible while I've been watching stuff and thinking about guys. I didn't want to say "this guy is a Top Whatever guy" 12 months ago and then force myself into either proving or disproving that specific statement. One of the last things I'm going to do is actually sit down and put my list in order. Having said that, it's getting late now, and I'm finally starting to think about what my list will look like and sort guys into tiers. While I do that I want to make sure I'm talking about them. Now that we're getting closer it sort of feels like there are more and more nominees but less and less discussion of existing nominees, especially guys who were nominated like 18 months ago.

Which is why she should be nominated, so we can talk about this.

I hate to make this thread about wrestling, but I am interested in seeing what you make of these matches before you close the book on AJ Parv.

I'm voting for Big Show on the strength of the good times. He's capable of so much when he's allowed to show it, so I choose to focus on what he can do rather than on the times when he couldn't due to forces largely outside his control. It may not be overly apparent but he's been doing work for quite a while now. He was very good in 2006 as the monster ace of ECW. He was very good in 2008, from the Mayweather feud and match, to the Undertaker feud and matches. He was very good in 2009 teaming with Jericho. He was very good in 2011, especially the Mark Henry feud. He was very good in 2012, with stuff with Bryan, Cody, Cena, Punk, and especially the Sheamus series. In 2013 he had the Alberto matches, and good stuff with the Shield. I can't speak to recently as I don't keep up with the TV, but certainly for the last decade, at least, he's usually been a very good performer, only really held back by booking and the positions he's been put in. vs Sheamus at HIAC 2012 is one of the best heavyweight title matches in recent history. vs Mark Henry at Vengeance 2011 is one of the best superheavyweight matches ever. vs Cena on Smackdown Feb 2009 is one of my favourite TV matches. vs Mayweather has to be the best match with a non-worker in it of all time. There's some high end stuff there. I kind of want to have a look at his 2003-05 period, because I remember some good stuff on SD with the likes of Eddie and Cena, but I just can't remember it any more clearly.

In the case of Volk Han, yes. I don't see why not if he demonstrated as much in those matches.

Can we add Becky Lynch to the list of people are who actually a decent promo if you just give them something to talk about? Man have they ever turned this angle around.

It's because they were all involved with each other. At the time, Paige was challenging Charlotte for the title. Paige was a heel after turning on them previously, and then the Reid Flair stuff. But Charlotte, who was a face at the time of the Reid angle but also terrible at being a face, basically also became a heel shortly afterwards, or at least heelish, by starting to use Flair to cheat to win, brushing off Becky, things like that. Becky was caught in the middle because she was Charlotte's friend and accompanied her to the ring, but she saw the cheating going on and disapproved, which brought her into conflict with Charlotte and created the feud they're currently in now. To add to the confusion the announcers and WWE didn't even know who was who because they often portrayed Becky as a whiner, and pushed the idea that you should just go along with the Flairs cheating because a. you do whatever you have to to win and b. IT'S THE NAYCHA BOY MAGGLE~! So basically, everyone was a heel and nobody had any kind of clear role, due to WWE's shitty booking of all the characters involved, the shitty announcers, and probably also their inability to care about female characters and book them with any consistency.

You realise there's an easy solution to this right? Nobody should hesitate to nominate anyone they're even considering voting for. Once they're nominated someone else might start thinking about them. And if nobody does, who cares? It's your list, put whoever you want on it.

I actually think Shane was the atrocious one in 2006. Unbelievably shitty and actively ruining matches with his utter bullshit. Vince wasn't any great shakes either, but he was miles better than Shane was during that period, and overall is about a hundred times the pro wrestler that Shane was.

Look at the time stamps. A month ago Charlotte hadn't turned, she had just started the Becky thing and was in that weird position of cheating to win and still being positioned as a face by the announcers and the crowd because WOOOO THE NAYCHA BOY~! After my post the angle progressed and the intent became clear with the heel turn. There's still a slight inherent problem is that the most over of the three is Ric and he's a heel manager who will always get cheered, but apart from that they've actually done a good job with the angle. I'm certainly ready for Becky to beat the shit out of her. And Ric.

Kofi's short feud with Orton was cool and super over for a while before it went south. Randomly, Orton cut a really strong promo at Bad Blood 2004. He was also cutting good promos in that late 2008 period where he was out injured, but would show up on Raw and berate everyone alive, which is also when he began to recruit Legacy. He came off like he was on a different level to everyone else. And then he returned and began his punting phase which also took him over the top. The Batista/Cena feud for WM26 was good, with strong promos. I know he's not a popular choice now, but Mr Kennedy's early promo work, those first couple years before he lost the MITB shot, was awesome.

Random aside, was anyone announced for the HOF? I can't find any mention of it online, but my mother swears they announced someone she'd never heard of and could only identify as "Road Crash Man".

I'd have said that too only Loss said no comedy. If we're including comedy, Teddy Long & Krystal's wedding on Smackdown is like the greatest comedy segment ever.

The one with Cena being scared pissless? Jesus that was amazing. Some have already been said, so others off the top of my head: - Early SES Punk with him shaving people's heads - The MVP & Matt Hardy rivalry and then uneasy tag team - Some of The Miz's promos in his U.S. Champ era, particularly the one where he starts in the back and ends up in the ring talking about locker room bullies - The entire Shawn vs Jericho feud - The entire Foley vs Orton feud, particularly Foley's money promo in Hershey after returning - The entire Trish & Mickie angle from Mickie's debut to Trish's injury - Edge's Joker period before facing Undertaker at Summerslam 2008. Hokey, but I enjoyed it. - Foley's promo on Edge during the same period - The Bray Wyatt vignettes - Daniel Bryan's heel turn in late 2011-early 2012 with the AJ stuff - Team Hell No skits and antics - Randy Orton as the killer who punts people into death in early 2009 (before they fucked that up) - Punk turning heel on Jeff Hardy in 2009 and that whole feud - The Angle vs Eddie feud in early 2004, especially watch the one where Angle comes out silently taping his fists to beat the shit out of a handcuffed Eddie - The UFC-style promos for the Cena/Lashley match - Jeff Hardy's meteoric rise in popularity in late 2007/early 2008, watch some of those video packages they did for him - Kane's promos for the Undertaker "vegetative state" angle. Again, a hokey angle but he did really well with it. - The Jericho vs Rey mask feud in 2009

I wasn't really clear - I meant that I find it easier to compare wrestlers from different eras than compare matches from different eras without being hampered by sentimentality. I can look at, say, John Cena and compare him to other guys that I didn't grow up on for the purposes of GWE, and I feel like I can at least entertain the notion of having someone else above him, even though he's my favourite. But if you ask me to compare, say, Cena vs Umaga to the best matches from other eras that I didn't grow up on, I would never in a million years be able to rank those matches above it. And the same holds true for all my favourite matches. Even now, if I made a Top 100 list and tried to put them in order I can't even imagine how far down I would get before I listed something that wasn't modern WWE. Embarrassingly far, I'm guessing. And it's not that I'm a blind mark I just...individual matches evoke something more visceral out of me than a wrestler's whole career. I need to feel it, and like everyone generally speaking, I feel most for the things I grew up on, and I find it hard to compare that to something I'm watching much more out of context.