Jimmy Redman

To take all your questions and answer them as a whole, I have very little use for play by play in reviews. Pretty much the only reason I read reviews of a match is because I've watched a match, thought something about it, and am interested in what other people thought about it. I've already seen the match, 98% of the time, so I don't need to read someone recapping it. I skip PBP when reading. I think the only time I have any use for PBP is when I'm unsure about a date for a match and look up reviews to look for some detail that confirms to me that yes, this is the particular match I'm looking for. I'm interested in opinions, ratings and analysis on the match. Even PBP that is littered with "that was a really nice clothesline" instead of "he hit a clothesline" is still not particularly compelling to me. I haven't written reviews with any frequency in a long time. From memory, when I did it was mostly in a stream of consciousness, reacting-in-the-moment way. Basically long paragraphs of marking out (or exhibiting whatever emotion I had about the match). I think the only time I went into PBP was when I got truly excited and said something along the lines of "let me proceed to list every little awesome moment in this match". It's either that or delving into the story of a match really hyper-analytically, like I've done most recently when looking at Cena/Owens or Sasha/Bayley. Almost like reviewing a movie by focusing on the overarching theme and how they explore it, rather than a normal match review.

Sure. But at the same time, I can go into Jumbo blind and have "this is the guy who is meant to be the GOAT" running in the back of my mind. Which I in fact did, whenever it was that I began watching Jumbo. Like you say, that's the nature of any kind of hype. I mean, I still think Shawn Michaels is the GOAT, and I couldn't care less about all the "revisionism" on him from everyone around here.

So, this guy. This fucking guy. My discovery of the day. I knew so little about him going in that I thought that he and the New Japan Ogawa that had that Hash feud were the same guy. Never laid eyes on this cat before (clearly). Now he's like my new favourite wrestler. This guy is like...inadequacy personified. And I mean that in the best possible way. Especially in the world of puro, where everyone is trying to out-macho each other, here's a guy who is just plain...inadequate. He's tiny and dorky and cunning and has to use every trick in the book just to keep up with everyone else. No other semi-important guy around him resorts to eye pokes and shit, because they don't have to, they're all macho tough guys. Ogawa has to do this shit just to avoid being killed for another night. He's like in a constant struggle to keep up with all of the adults around him. This bit from Loss really sums him up well: He is always true to himself. Everything he does, he does in a very Ogawa-ish way. He's unique and really stands out in the environment he's in. Sometimes, like vs Akiyama '98, he comes off as the plucky, outmatched underdog, where the crowd is pulling for him and you want him to somehow pull off the upset. And sometimes, like vs Kobashi '03, he comes off like a snivelling, outmatched weasel, using every heel shortcut like a total asshole and just begging to get the shit kicked out of him. Either way, he's always outmatched. But there's so many ways that they can go with it, depending on who he's facing, and how far he's willing to stoop. He's so great at taking a beating. Even from Misawa, his big buddy, when he elbows him his head just comes clean off, let alone taking it from big stars who don't have the slightest bit of respect for him like a Hash or Kobashi or Takayama. And then in turn he's great as the little buddy tag partner, who won't give up and will always just hang in there, but who will also inevitably get killed in spectacular fashion. I love this guy.

I see that, but at the same time it's just...that's kind of an inevitable by-product of criticism. If one thing becomes canon, the way to make new canon is to compare it to existing canon. That's the context you're judging it against. Look at it the other way - you seem to come at this like whatever is established canon MUST be the best and any attempts to re-judge it as anything but, or even just to suggest that others could be equally valid canon, are clearly contrarian. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the notion that things are canon for a reason, but at the same time, does that make them immune to revision? To criticism? To an argument that results in them not being canon anymore? How is that any more scholarly, to just accept the canon as a fait accompli?

The problem is that you still insist on it being "disingenuous". You can be part of a wider history of criticism of a particular wrestler, and be aware of and disagree with existing criticism surrounding them, without being willing contrarian. You can just have a different opinion, maybe born out of disagreeing with an existing talking point or widely-held belief, or maybe not even disagreeing but just coming at it from another angle. Again it's the questioning of people's motives that doesn't sit well.

Shawn's INSANE bump over the top rope to the floor and the subsequent heat stretch were a pretty big part of the match, from memory, and that was trademark Shawn. On the subject, I was listening to Shawn on Jericho's podcast the other day and it might interest you to know that this match came up, and while he still half defends his thinking in a kind of "I was young and that's how I felt at the time" way, he also kind of admitted that he understood now where the Demos were coming from and why they wanted to work the match the way they did.

This was so great. Hash & Otsuka is one of those fun parejas increibles that comes from early 00s Japan when people started showing up in random NOAH tags. So here we have Hash and Misawa facing off in an epic battle of the ultimate puro aces, and the best thing about this match is Yoshinara Fucking Ogawa! He was screwed enough being tossed around by Otsuka, who was way more worried about goading Misawa into the ring. Then he finally tags Hash and Hash doesn't even deign to LOOK at Ogawa. That whole opening bit, he doesn't even give Ogawa the courtesy of looking at him while he's eyeballing Misawa. To him Ogawa is basically like an ant that he's trodden on, on the way to fighting his opponent. And through all this, Ogawa never gives up the fight, that poor outmatched bugger, and Misawa never stops trusting him to do the job even though he's a poor outmatched bugger. And it all leads up to his big confrontation with Hash, where he tries to engage him in a strike battle, loses, but refuses to be suplexed and busts out an Ogawa eye poke in order to SUPLEX HASH! That was awesome. He's great at the finish as well. They reach the point of "my guy is going to finish him off, so I better knock the other guy off the apron" but Ogawa is so hilariously inept that his first attempt barely moves Hash and Hash breaks up the pin, and then he starts just wailing on Misawa, and Ogawa is powerless until he resorts to simply choking Hash from behind and kind of hugging/dragging him away. He looks RIDICULOUS, like a little kid trying to tackle a linebacker, but in true Ogawa fashion it just works enough, allowing Misawa to get the win. Oh and also, Hash and Misawa beat the shit out of each other. I enjoyed this.

The "List of all nominees" thread pinned in the Nominees folder.

I wasn't talking so much about the booking as much as the in-ring quality. Although even the booking at its worst gets a pass from me because they are my childhood memories. At the time I didn't care. But even in the HHH-dominated main event scene, the match quality was tremendous. You were pretty much guaranteed one long, awesome match every week (reminds me of late 00s SD in that regard). Hunter himself probably had his best in-ring year since 2000, without even looking at PPVs.

Getting off the point a bit, but I'm glad it's not just me who digs 2004 Raw. I absolutely loved the work on Raw at the time, and any time I go back there it more than holds up. I'd love to see some more thoughts from you on the period.

Trish I'm curious about. I'm not trying to be this arguing, signaling out douche or anything, but I'm just curious as to what captures your attention to vote in Trish over say someone like Mariko Yoshida just to name someone. I know Trish was the best women wrestler in WWF for some years, but she really didn't ever catch on to me as this great wrestler or anything. Just going by US wise alone, I would say Sara del Ray, Sasha Banks, Bayley or Cheerleader Melissa are above her even though they haven't been in the big spotlight she was and even though she didn't get the chance to work matches as extensive as them. There's been a lot said about Trish in her thread, and I'm not saying "read her thread" to be a douche either, but if you read mine and brainfollower's posts in that thread that should give you a picture of what her strengths are, although I don't place as much importance in the "achievement/making chicken salad out of" aspect that brain does, I think. I think Trish is great mainly because I think greatness is way more than the physical moves you make in the ring. Especially in WWE. Sara Del Rey or Mariko Yoshida can wrestle, physically, better than Trish, but for me that basically has nothing to do with it and kind of misses the whole point of wrestling. Trish was an incredible heel in 2004. I start with that because it's her best work and what I think of first. She was genuinely the best heel on Raw, if not the company, in that period. She had awesome comedic timing, physical timing, awesome expressions. She was great at projecting her character in the ring. She was great at knowing just how much to give other girls depending on their situation, especially girls who weren't much good, where she was trying to tell the right story and lead them by the hand through a match at the same time. She had the versatility to work heel or face, serious or comedic, legit wrestler or lighthearted T&A, all the gimmick matches she had, and all levels of opponent from good workers to the downright incompetent. She had great matches with a bunch of people (relative to how many girls are ever on the roster) like Lita, Mickie, Melina, Victoria, Jazz, Molly, Stephanie, etc. People don't immediately think of the matches, instead thinking of her dragging passable stuff out of bad workers, but she does have that list of great matches when I stop and list them all, which I will do (unless brain has already done it in the Trish thread, I can't remember). Above all else she was my favourite wrestler for a long time. I mean if it was a list of my favourite wrestlers I'd put her #2. Obviously I'm not going to do that, but there's a reason why she was my favourite, and I can watch her back and still see that talent shine through, and still believe her body of work holds up, so I am absolutely ranking her. No idea where, but somewhere. In terms of a specific "why X and not Y", I guess I can say that from what I've seen of SDR, she's very good mechanically but has never really grabbed me as anything more, even relative to her peers like a Cheerleader Melissa. And like I've said, mechanics are one of the least important things to me. Melissa I like a little more, I remember enjoying her in TNA back in the day, and I've liked what I've seen of her indy work, but again I don't like her enough to compel me to seek out more of her stuff in time to rank her. She's just there, like a lot of other girls are just there, whether they're from joshi, indies or WWE. Sasha and Bayley are guys I would kind of love to rank, even just on principle, but even I can't find it in me to justify it. It's too soon. They've been on the radar for a year, maybe a year and a half. I've seen a lot of women (and men) have really strong year-long runs in my time without feeling like I can put them on a list like this. Sky's the limit for the next ballot though. I think I've seen maybe one Mariko Yoshida match so far, so I really don't have any value judgment on her. I'm still watching a lot of joshi at the moment, so more joshi girls could come into the picture if I see more of them and like them. She's just not someone who's been on my radar, as yet.

Definitely. That pretty much matches up with my impression of her. She's kind of an asshole, but she also has this real, sympathetic streak during matches where you're hoping that she gets through it without dying. You come away impressed with her sheer force of will, more than anything. Her stubbornness bleeds through every single match, whether she's refusing to tag in Kandori for like half an hour, just on principle, or just refusing to stay down when she's being killed. It's a pro wrestling kind of hubris, turned up to 11. I really enjoy wrestlers who seem like...The Other. Who have something about them that makes them stand out, makes them different from everyone else around them. That certain level of transcendence. Hansen, for instance, had that the moment I laid eyes on him. Hokuto has that. There's the question about how long her run is, but to me it's all part of the package. She was a candle burning at both ends. Her peak was incredibly high but incredibly short because you can only tiptoe across that highwire for so long before the inevitable fall. But while she was up there, she was higher than anyone else had ever been.

It changes levels of motivation, and lessens the consequences of failure. It also significantly lowers the bargaining power of individual wrestlers vs the company.

Women I'm considering at this point: Trish, Kong, Toyota, Yamada, Kansai, Ozaki, Hokuto, Kandori, Satomura, Kudo, Chiggy. Still haven't finished, and I haven't seen much FMW/deathmatch type stuff yet.

I'd like to have some more context for Hokuto and the mid-90s joshi scene. Was she a face or heel, or something different altogether? Does it depend on which companies are involved? I wish I knew what she was saying in those pre-match promos. I see her do things like ask the announcer to come and introduce her again, and that's a heel move in America, but again maybe I just don't know the context. Regardless of those minor details though, Hokuto is just something else. She has this aura to her that places her above all of the other girls around her. And sometimes she comes off like...well, an asshole. Again, I;m not sure if she's supposed to be an asshole or I'm just missing some context. But she has this magnetism, something that draws you to her and prevents you from tearing your eyes away. I think my favourite micro thing from her so far is the beginning of the first Kandori match. After the table piledriver she comes up bleeding and the selling is just phenomenal. When she's all hunched over, staggering along, lurching...she legitimately looks like she's about to throw up. And it's not the most obvious choice in wrestling selling, but it was incredibly effective at showing just how much that piledriver fucked her up. Her head got rocked so hard she was going to vomit. Her level of selling, her flair for the dramatic, her ability to make things feel (forgive me) dangerous...she's on another level. Another thing I want to ask is if she ever had a big singles match with Dynamite Kansai during her peak? That's the most attractive match up to me on paper, but I can't find one anywhere.

When I was, you know, actually into watching wrestling, I used to keep a log of all the good matches I watched, for list making purposes. When I go through a goodhelmet comp or something I keep notes on those matches, because I'm watching so many matches all at once and I'd forget otherwise. I started notes for matches I watched for GWE, and then soon lapsed, and I'm kind of kicking myself now because I forget what I've actually watched and details within matches that I wish I could recall now, since I need all the details I can get. But alas. Apparently my interest in wrestling is directly linked to my interest in taking notes about it.

The "PG era" began in about 2009. The blood ban took hold in the ring, and out of it the language/content was sanitised due to things like Linda's Senate campaign and sponsors. I think everyone was saying "WWE Universe" by the end of 2009, which is another aspect: everyone talking in catchphrases and buzzwords instead of real words. The Homogeneous Era.

By "this decade" do you mean the 2010s? There are a bunch of guys who have done case-relevant work in the 10s, but I'm trying to think of guys I might not have otherwise ranked - or certainly wouldn't rank as high as I will - without their work from 2010-present: Brock, Bryan, Punk, Henry, Sheamus, Zayn, Cesaro, Goldust, Ibushi. Sheamus is a guy, I mean he debuted in WWE in late 2009, so I think he's the only guy on my list who's career is almost entirely in the 2010s.

For me it's Cesaro. I also enjoyed Cena and Orton's bodies in that mid 00s period when they were at their leanest, before they got older and bulky. Also, Arn Anderson, the big bear.

I'll get to my list of women presently, since I'm in the middle of a big joshi binge. As a sidebar, this seems as good a place as any to ask about women in lucha. What is there? WHO is there? It's not something you ever hear about, even in a hardcore place like this. I think my awareness only extends to Fabi Apache and Sexy Star. So what's the deal? Is it not very good? Is it that there's nobody following it or pimping it? Is it an afterthought in Mexico? Is there any luchadora who could have been considered for something like GWE? Just curious.

Yeah, it had "first match of a long Jericho feud" written all over it.

It's a problem with WWE presentation across the board that so many points that they should be getting across to viewers are distorted, muted or lost because of the terrible commentary and their inability to paint a proper picture. The faces come off as robotic and soulless, and JBL usually wins any arguments they have because he's just better at arguing than they are, and thus the moral of whatever the story is is often lost. The faces say the right things but don't sound like they mean them, and the heel says moronic things, but at least he says them emphatically.

I think in this case, there's just a level of laziness there where they don't really explain why they have to be nice to Roman even when they're being mean to him, and so it comes off as haphazard, at best. Austin was a megastar and it was explained by Vince that he needed to keep him around to make money. Vince just didn't want him as the champ. Even during the Bryan feud, it was explained that the McMahons didn't think he looked like someone who could be the face of the company, but saw he was popular and tried to keep him around as a midcarder to make them money, only he kept winning and screwing things up. For Roman, it has never been satisfactorily explained a. why they are SO against the idea of Roman as the champion or face of the company (other than a vague, "The Authority are heels so they need a heel champ") or b. why Roman is apparently such a big star that they need to keep giving him title shots even though they are SO against the idea of Roman as champ. He's the prototype of the kind of face that the McMahons want, but he's a babyface and the Authority are heels so we have to pretend like he's some sort of rebellious underdog fighting the machine (this was the same problem with attempts to put Cena vs authority). They're trying to manufacture a rebel, and people can see through that. He's also been rejected by large sections of the audience, and isn't the kind of universally over/money maker that would force the McMahons' hand to push him against their will. They're trying to pretend he's a big draw, and of course you have to do that, but again, people will see through that unless there's at least a kernel of truth to it all. Austin WAS that over, so it made sense. Bryan WAS that over, so it made sense. Roman gets booed and crowds seem to want anyone else, so it makes no sense why the Authority have to keep pushing him. He could go away and the crowds wouldn't care.

The portrayal of sexual assault then. Christ.

It's a sign of how far sensibilities about this have come in recent years. That is a spot that has been a common wrestling trope forever - manager kisses opposite sex wrestler to distract them/vice versa - and years ago even I never batted an eyelid, but when I saw the Flair/Becky thing I felt quite uncomfortable and couldn't just laugh it off as a comedy spot. Times have changed. In the same way that while a Rock promo about women being sluts and bragging about sex was the height of fashion in 2000, that same promo now feels kind of sleazy and disrespectful.