W2BTD

I think the point I'm trying to make is that what the "narrative" of a match turns out to be isn't necessarily what you expect it to be at a certain point during the match. Or, for that matter, what you think it should be based on what has come so far. Things can change, and both a story and an athletic contest can turn on a dime. That's as true of wrestling matches as it is of novels and movies and plays and songs and whatever other storytelling medium there is. You can absolutely start reading a novel and think it's going to be about X, but then as it goes on there's a twist, or a turn, or a change in tone and by the end it's far more about Y instead. That isn't an inherent failure of storytelling, unless the execution of said change is bad enough to ruin the book. But again, I'm not excusing bad execution. I'm saying that stories don't always go from A to B to C to D with logic and meaning attached to each move in equal measure. Not even great stories. They jump around, they stutter, they repeat "spots" and themes, they go in a completely different direction than you'd expect, they drag out, they stop abruptly, etc. and etc. And this is especially true of wrestling matches when you add in the intangible of it also involving two guys trying to tell some kind of story whilst also trying to perform athletic feats and trying to get the crowds surrounding them to vocally react. You're not going to get neatly-wrapped, unfailingly logical, perfectly progressing stories as matches. At least, hardly ever. And there's nothing wrong with that, because storytelling isn't meant to be perfect. There isn't always a "why" that you can point to for every minute of a match. Sometimes something completely illogical is the best choice, sometimes that is what works best. Maybe that's not what you like to think or want to get out of wrestling, judging from your modus operandi, and I understand that and respect that. We can agree to disagree. But this is one of those times where, from my point of view, your ultra-logical approach leaves one in danger of missing the forest. On the point of limb work specifically, my main point is, again, that not selling a limb while on offense or later in a match is not inherently a bad choice. It could be if it's the wrong choice for a particular match, or if it's executed badly, but that you don't have to sell everything all the time. To flip around the idea of things being "meaningful", how "meaningful" is it if limbwork is super effective every time? How special is crippling a guy with your limbwork when your limbwork can basically cripple anyone at will? Crippling limbwork becomes as routine as going through your moveset. I think there's something to be said for extended death selling being more "meaningful" if you don't sell like that every single time your leg gets attacked by someone. That's Dolph Ziggler's entire problem. He flops around and sells like death in every match, whether he's facing Big Show or Rey, whether he's above the guy he's facing or beneath. And it renders his big bumps meaningless, because he bumps like that for everyone, so when he does face a big guy and SHOULD be bumping around, what should be a different kind of match with a big-little dynamic is just every Dolph match ever. If every match with limbwork resulted in the victim selling it like death, every match with limbwork in it would look the same. I've been talking in the abstract this entire time, but to bring it back to the original point - Shawn/Razor II - I watched the match again so I can now tie it into my first point, and I do think it is a good example of my point. Sometimes limb work just doesn't cripple a guy. I personally don't think Shawn just "no-sold" the leg work. He was worked over for a while, and then the big turning point was Razor climbing the ladder and Shawn STRUGGLING to climb up the ropes to hit a springboard somethingorother to knock him off. Then he collapsed and sold. Then Razor picked him up for an attempted Razor's Edge. Shawn floated through it and shoved Razor into the ladder. Then he collapsed and sold. These were desperation moves. Then he gradually started to become more active but he was limping around for minutes after his initial hope spot. When he and Razor climbed the same ladder Shawn was noticeably slower. All of this is selling. None of this involves Shawn hopping around on one leg or collapsing under the weight of his leg or whatever else he's supposed to be doing. But it all involves Shawn continuing to sell after he went back on offense, until he reached a point where he had recovered sufficiently enough to do more stuff and win the match. He sold all through the finish, but it was more of an overall, exhausted selling of going through a gruelling ladder match, not selling that his leg was broken. His leg clearly wasn't broken though, because if it was, he'd be selling it, you know? But in terms of there being a transition from limb work to not limb work, there WAS a transition. It wasn't arbitrary or popping up. So I really can't agree with the idea that just because he wasn't selling his leg like death through the finish, that he blew off perfectly good leg work or ruined the story of the match. They may have ruined the story that YOU wanted them to tell, but not the story that was actually playing out in reality. Having said that, if a match disappoints you because they end the "story" of it in a way that displeases you, I think that's a perfectly valid reason for not liking a match. This is a great post. I agree with nearly every word. At no point during Shawn/Razor II did I think Shawn was blowing off the leg work to "fly around" or "get his shit in". In fact, I think the opposite. I think Shawn/Razor II is a great example of focused selling, and I think Jimmy Redmond did a great job pointing out spots & examples. And keep in mind that i'm someone who probably wouldn't have cared all that much if Shawn had blown off the leg a little. The bottom line is Shawn never made me feel like the moves didn't matter. Yes, he climbed. Yes, he leaped off of the ladder. So what? As Jimmy pointed out, he was selling "pain" each time he did these things. I think sometimes we use selling as a red herring to bash a match or a wrestler we don't like, sort of as an expectation bias. If it's a wrestler with a reputation for not selling or a wrestler we don't like, we are subconsciously (or consciously in some cases) waiting for examples of bad selling to jump all over and expose. If people are watching Davey or Elgin, or Bill is watching Michaels, they are going to be far more hyper critical of things like selling because they are going into the match biased and looking for it based on expectation. That may not be totally unfair, but at the same time it is sort of unfair. I've watched pimped lucha matches with lucha darlings that feature egregiously bad selling that would get a guy like Davey Richards mocked and gif'd, but the expectation bias isn't there, so it gets glossed over. We are all guilty of glossing over things when we like a guy, and hyper focusing on things when we don't. That's human nature, I think. I think the point i'm trying to make is this. If you think Shawn/Razor II is an example of blowing off limb work, that's fine. But that also means you have incredibly high standards of selling limbs, and I sure hope you are being consistent across the board with the same level of hyper focused expectations. If your bar is truly set that high, fine. But man, I would think you would find it very hard to enjoy a great deal of matches with standards set that high.

Maybe I'm biased since I never was a fan of the ECW garbage style, but I stand by it. I know he was doing stuff that was unheard of in 1994/5, but his legacy at this point is pretty much no showing events, missing 75% of his signature spots and throwing fits afterwards, and asking every fan who ever attended an ECW show if they have any weed. Hell one of his most famous moments was giving Chris Benoit his Crippler name by botching a backdrop. Plus he managed to be unprofessional enough to get told to GTFO by both WCW and WWF/E (twice!) despite being a relatively hot commodity at the time. I'll be fair and state that maybe there's an amazing Sabu match somewhere that I've never seen that would prove me wrong, but it seems like he's more or less a case of Paul Heyman managing to convince everyone the Emperor was wearing a fancy suit of clothes. The only problem with this theory is Sabu was already garnering buzz on what we now call the indie scene before Heyman got a hold of him. I don't know your age, background, etc so apologies in advance if i'm off base here, but Sabu is a case of something that you really had to live through to completely understand.

Byron Wilcott has been around for years, including a run in WWE developmental. I know his New Japan stuff has become the stuff of meme/internet legend, but I've seen him live a million times on the NWA/Texas indie scene and he's a perfectly competent pro wrestler. Nothing special, but never even close to the worst guy on a given card. And even though I wouldn't be running to my phone to bring him back, I didn't think the New Japan matches were that bad. EDIT: Just thought of this, but I saw Wilcott have a legitimate 4-star match against Tokyo Monster Kahagas, of all people.

Kota Ibushi at the end of the Nakamura match from the 2013 G1 is a great example of one, because it was at the end of the match when he knew he was toast, and he used his last bit of energy to basically say to Nak "I know i'm going to lose this, but i'm making you kill me fucking dead first". One more Boma Ye, done. To me that one spot took that match from very good to a great MOTY contender. That's the thing about a lot of fighting spirit spots. They usually lead to the guy doing it getting immediately KO'd again anyway, or delivering a desperation move and then selling the damage. Very rarely if ever do you see a fighting spirit spot where the guy just takes over on offense like a transition move.

I'm no fan of Randy Orton, but at worst he's a perfectly average pro wrestler. Not even close to the worst of all time. Chief Jay Strongbow & Ivan Putski are serous contenders.

I'll see that take, and raise you. I prefer them to the Midnights.

They aren't no selling in the sense that they are pretending it doesn't hurt, they are no selling in the sense that "I am tougher than you, you can't break me, and I will outlast you". In that sense, it is a macho pissing contest, and that's exactly why I like it. I like the idea of tough guys trying to out tough each other. I don't really want to get into the "in a real fight" stuff, because it isn't a real fight, it's pro wrestling where you do things you can't do in real life to make it more exciting, but with that said the most exciting MMA fights are two stand up fighters with no intentions of taking it to the ground killing each other in a stand up war. That's the same theory behind the standing strike exchanges in puro matches. Fuck fighting smart, right now i'm out to prove i'm tougher than you, because i'm a man and men are stupid when pride & adrenaline is involved. It's similar to fighting spirit. And you either get it and like it, or don't. I think a well timed "no sell" (again, not really no selling as much as fighting past it with the last bit of energy inside of you) fighting spirit spot is the most exciting spot in all of wrestling.

Chikara always walked a fine line between fun & stupidity, but they crossed the line post shutdown, and the sketchy nature of the shutdown left a bad taste in my mouth. I was a casual supporter as a "guilty pleasure" pre shutdown (I also liked Osaka Pro for similar reasons), but now I have very little interest in supporting them. I will say that the Inspire Pro/Chikara joint show earlier this month was a nice throwback to the old days and a very enjoyable live event. It's worth a look if you are a DVD buyer who normally follows either promotion.

Welp. This company, lol. Such shit.

This is awesome, i'm going to devour this. Thanks.

Stomper is a machine and I am fully incapable of putting together anything resembling a competent "Stomper List", at least off the top of my head. I'd have to go look some things up, otherwise you're going to get crappy directionless recs like "That six man from Korakuen in 2011 where he took the crazy bump over the rail. I think one of the guys he teamed with was Makabe." In other words, i'm procrastinating until Alan does it.

I tossed around the idea of Big E for that spot, but Henry makes more sense.

I was down on this show last week, but adding Cesaro/Dolph and having what will likely turn out to be false hope that it won't be overbooked has me looking forward to it. I fear WWE "storytelling" at its worst in the Ambrose/Rollins match. I hope i'm wrong.

Question, Joe: Do you actively enjoy the back-and-forth elbow battles in New Japan? Or is it more like you accept them as part of a style you like overall? I ask because it seems those strike exchanges irritate a lot of the skeptics about modern New Japan (and yes, they irritate me, even though I'm enjoying the promotion overall). But I'm unclear if those who truly love New Japan also love that aspect of the style. They don't bother me at all, and when done at the right time (right at the bell by sluggers like Ishii or Shibata, or when both guys are frustrated that they haven't been able to put the other away, etc) they add a ton excitement to a match for me. In short, yes, I enjoy the strike exchanges and will pop for them. They represent the FIGHT that I like to see in my puro.

This is an excellent point. Their pacing makes them stand out, especially for that time period, which is probably why I like them so much. They were ahead of their time in a lot of ways, too. They tick every box for me, and would definitely be a team I would consider for a top 25.

That Chikara four way is one of my favorite matches. Insane display of athleticism & timing from all four guys. So much fun.

Kozov is getting chubby, as it looks like he can't work out properly with that shoulder injury. Hopefully that win doesn't foreshadow a tournament win & title challenge, because I think everybody is sick of that match.

I think I know who one or two of these are, but i'd love to see some names attached.

I thought the six man was great, and I LOVED the Ishii/Goto stuff. The difference of opinion is probably because I like Goto a lot, probably as a Top 20 guy worldwide right now (or close to it), and i'm into stuff like rope running, lariat battles, and elbow exchanges. Anyway, I thought the match had a total All Japan glory days 6-man vibe, with the super hot crowd, and all six guys super over. The enormous pop when Tana & Okada tagged in, and the two simultaneous Tanahashi/Okada chants, really hammered home that they are going in the right direction for the dome. Tana & Okada took a backseat to the other two pairings down the stretch, which was the right thing to do as they needed to get the other two matches over. Personally I can not wait for Goto/Ishii, which will be right up my alley with two dudes beating the shit out of each other. The junior tags were all really fun, with a couple of them flirting with four stars. Probably the best opening round of this tournament in a few years, as usually it has a dud or two. I really, really, REALLY hope reDRagon vs Tanaka & Komatsu makes tape. Also Fuego vs Tanaka. I blew off the multi-man throwaway tags, so I didn't see the whole show, but the stuff I did watch was all pretty damn good and an easy watch. Bucks vs Liger & Tiger Mask was a nice surprise.

Also I agree with goc, they were a better babyface team for sure.

Underrated and under appreciated team. Just watched a great Continental TV match they had against the Southern Boys (another great team), I think from May 1988, which was just as they were teasing the Nightmares split. They did a ref stop finish where Armstrong didn't get high enough on a leap frog, and smacked his balls on Davis' head. Listening to Solie find creative ways to describe this as classy as possible was amusing. So anyway, the Nightmares won the match & the titles via ref stoppage, so Ken Wayne, who was doing a cocky asshole gimmick because he had just won the junior title, was parading around the ring with the three belts like he just hit the lottery while Smothers, Davis, and the ref tended to Armstrong and his injured sack. Davis, playing the straight babyface, was having none of this, and talked Wayne into giving the titles back. This was just all so fantastic. The match itself was a great baby vs baby tag match, worked at the breakneck pace I love, and the post match stuff was fucking gold. Everybody was great. Wayne, Davis, Armstrong & his injured balls, Smothers, Solie, everybody. **** I stumbled upon a Nightmares/R&RE match from Memphis, 1985. Nightmares were feed & bump heels here, managed by Jimmy Hart. This was under ten minutes, and it was one of those R&RE matches where Gibson plays the face in peril. I haven't seen much of the Nightmares in Memphis, but it was fun seeing them in a different role as midcard heels as opposed to the Continental stuff i've seen, where they were often a top act. It wasn't a great match or anything, but they showed versatility for sure.

A quick disclaimer. I love Continental. Probably my favorite southern territory, and maybe my favorite territory period. Lots of hot angles, always featured strong workrate, good tag team matches, good promos, and plenty of brawls if that's your bag. If the footage wasn't so scarce & scattered, i'd devour Continental from start to finish because I always love the stuff I see. With that said, the problem with Stubbs is that every territory had three or four guys just like him. He doesn't stand out from the pack at all. For example, in the two tag matches above I would argue that he's the fourth best guy in both matches. I think I could run off 100 active wrestlers that are pretty easily better than Stubbs with very minimal effort, so I can't see an argument for top 100 of all time at all. He served his purpose and was an important cog here, but if you're a glue guy in a territory I think you need to be a hell of a lot better than Stubbs to be considered for something like this. Top 100 of All Time is some rare air.

When it comes to Kensuke Sasaki, his attitude towards the dead trainee is what rubs people the wrong way. He never talks about it, but the one time he did, the loose translation of his reaction was a shoulder shrug and "It was just one of those things", which some took as 'this m'fer killed that kid and doesn't give a fuck', but from what I understand it was meant as more of a 'It was an unfortunate consequence of training'. It is also said that his attitude towards it today is that he never thinks about it and simply views it as an accident that happened and nothing more. So some people see him as callous. The Khali thing was a straight up accident, as the kid took a bad bump off of what I believe was a back body drop iirc. There was more heat on the trainers at the the time than there was on Khali, because everybody involved was extremely green and the trainers were seen as negligent in allowing them to do things they weren't ready for from what I remember.

Anybody who has seen enough WWF house show footage from the 80's knows that the entire company took nights off, and who could blame them? Double shots, the rare triple shots, double shots in different time zones in some cases, etc. Butch Reed, Greg Valentine, Don Muraco, Dino Bravo, all instantly jump out as guys who dogged it badly on WWF tours. If you watch Reed when he first jumped to WCW, he's still working WWF house show style and sticks out like a sore thumb. These people were tired.

I guess as someone who really likes what you call "the standard KENTA/NOAH finish run", that never struck me as an issue. I'm going to rewatch the March match with fresh eyes.