W2BTD

Means absolutely nothing. I have no problem watching Benoit matches, just like I have no problem watching OJ Simpson highlights or Inavder I matches or Buck Zumhoff matches or Ray Rice highlights or Michael Vick play football. Maybe this means I have a dark, jaded soul. I don't know. I do not condone the actions of any of these people, but jeez, it's just goofy wrestling matches.

I think the series of matches he had with KENTA between 2008 & 2009, including the tags, are right up there with any short term series of matches ever. The match to match storytelling was at an elite level. I'm not sure what you mean about KENTA not being cooperative. That feud felt very give & take, especially for an established star who was starting his run up to company ace going up against a 22 year old outsider just getting his feet wet in big matches. Do you think KENTA ate him up in individual matches?

It should be noted that if you look at New Japan, they always turns to Nakamura when they need someone to work a program or a match on a big show with sub par opponents, and he always over delivers. vs Sakuraba, WrestleKingdom 7 (MOTY contender, which is a legit miracle when you look at Saku's body of work in New Japan) vs Kengo Mashimo, 2/10/13 vs Shelton Benjamin, 5/3/13 (see below) vs Shelton Benjamin, 9/29/13 (I don't think Shelton is nearly as bad as most of you guys do, but these are easily the two best matches of Shelton's NJPW run) vs Captain New Japan, 12/12/13 vs Bad Luck Fale, 3/23/14 (there is A LOT more of this) w/Sakuraba vs Daniel & Rolles Gracie, 5/3/14 (whoa boy, look at this collection of stiffs) vs Daniel Gracie, 5/25/14 vs Bad Luck Fale, 6/21/14 (still more of this to come) vs Bad Luck Fale, 8/8/14 (G1, but this was positioned as a key match Nak needed to win to advance to the finals) vs Bad Luck Fale, 9/21/14 (yes, he was asked to drag Fale around for FOUR main event level matches, and they all delivered) That's ten challenging singles matches in two years, in a company where outside of tournaments you don't get many chances to work a ton of singles bouts. Nearly half of his big show matches were with varying degrees of slop or underachievers. If I made a list like this for, say, Tanahashi, it might be empty. This tells me that New Japan feels like Nakamura is the most versatile star on the roster, or at least have more confidence in his ability to deliver against a wide variety of styles. And generally, he does. I can't imagine coming up with 100 guys who were better. When I did this in 2010, he was in the middle of the pack, and that was before tons of great matches he's had since during the hot period.

That spot is no less "stupid" or business exposing than Lawler pulling down the strap or the Hogan no sell shake. And far less cartoonish than either. That spot didn't bother anybody who doesn't mind a well placed no sell spot. It bothered everybody who hates no sell spots. And around & around we go.

I think the last time I did something like this he ended up around #10. Behind Misawa, Kobashi, Flair, and a bunch of other guys who would elicit a shocked smiley around these parts like Angle, KENTA, etc. Michaels is a guy who I never think I like as much as most people do, then I watch his stuff and i'm like, holy shit this guy is phenomenal what was I thinking?

If Morton is Michael Jordan, I wouldn't call Gibson Scotty Pippen, but I have no problem calling him Horace Grant. The issue is some people think he's Will Purdue.

I honestly can not fathom how someone could think that performance was terrible. It was flawless. He took two of the craziest legitimate, non death match stupidity bumps i've ever seen, and sold the leg tremendously the whole way. Razor was great too. The pace was incredible, as was the intensity. To each his own I guess, not sure what you could have wanted that you didn't get.

People are way harder on Gibson than he deserves. Morton is obviously great, and i've seen matches where Gibson might as well not even be there or could be literally anybody else in the world, but this is no one man tag team like Booker T.

I have a bad memory sometimes because I really don't like rewatching matches until years later, so I end up forgetting about some of them even if I really liked them. I forgot this match existed, but you are right. Holy shit was it fun.

I love Sasuke, and was hyped to watch this: w/Shinzaki vs Kenou & Hayato Mpro 11/4/2013 - Awesome epic tag match. ...but I ended up hating it. Found it extremely boring, which probably means some of you guys should definitely check it out based on the fact i'm so wildly far apart in taste as most of you. I remember Dylan really loving it.

The most unfairly criticized wrestler of recent vintage. You could make a argument he was the best wrestler in the world for a solid three year period during the stretch where he was pumping out MOTY contenders at a rate nobody else could match. The problem, is he dropped off of a cliff after he lost his motivation. I still like him for what he is, but he isn't nearly the wrestler he used to be. Loved the Elgin match and agree it's five stars. Loved the two Edwards matches. The LOL GIF is a spot I popped for live and I don't have any problem with it. I don't mind a no sell spot now & then, and this one was creative & looked cool, so shoulder shrug. He'd probably make my list just based on the sheer volume of amazing matches he produced over a 30 month period or whatever it was, but he lacks meat before and he lacks just about anything since. Thinking lower part of my list, but he could be much higher or even completely off if others jump up. A real wildcard.

Exactly. The botches are part of the total package and add to the charm. He wouldn't be Sabu without them. There is an element of danger to a Sabu match that you just don't get with anybody else. He is unique in that there are guys who are similar in some ways (Hayabusa, Teddy Hart, etc), but there really is no fair comp to match him up with historically. Probably my favorite wrestler ever to watch in person. The worst Sabu match is still fun to watch. An absolute mortal lock to make my list.

So I watched a bunch of WWF HBK today. Rockers, boy toy, and comeback. I watched the SummerSlam ladder match for the second time ever. First time was as it happened 19 years ago. I wasn't expecting it to hold up after all of the crazy ladder matches that have happened since. Well, it did. It was actually significantly better than I remembered. Just an incredible match, and Michaels is so good in this that I can't even rate him. There is no scale. One of the greatest single match performances I've ever seen. I watched the 2009 HIAC DX vs Legacy. This is the match where HHH is locked out of the cage and HBK just takes a beating the entire match. Another great performance, selling his as off. His facials and body language are so on another level from most guys. Michaels is simply an incredible pro wrestler. Easy top ten contender. Has to be considered for #1. And he's not even a guy I consider one of my all time favorites. Never was. But he's just great at this goofy fake sport. Undeniable.

The match from the year before was significantly better (not sure if you've ever seen it). 29 wasn't any good, and honestly, a lot of that was The Rock blowing up (and also getting injured, which I guess you could blame on Cena if you wanted to).

The BOLA reaction was an anti-CZW thing. The past page and a bit are biased people criticising other people for being biased. Fact of the matter is Thatcher isn't the most charismatic wrestler in the World and you can't control a crowd (with reason) you are a poor professional. If the promotion and person were different people would be talking about how he was EXPOSED. Like how Tanahashi was exposed v. Mike Bennett? Tanahashi didn't get booed out of the building, so I don't understand the comparison. He worked a Mike Bennett match vs Mike Bennett. Everybody groaned when the match was announced because Bennett stinks, and I think we all got the match we thought we would, which was a typical 3-star Mike Bennett nothing match. There is a clear pattern of Thatcher, Gulak, & Busick not doing well in front of certain crowds. It isn't an easy style to adjust to. Many people (myself being one of them) find it extremely boring. It takes a while for new shit to get over sometimes. Maybe this eventually will. Gabe Sapolsky seems think it will. Who knows? Right now, it's over in Beyond Wrestling, which is mostly other wrestlers (I still don't really completely understand what Beyond is, with shows with no fans, "secret" shows, etc or how they make money). It sort of got over at EVOLVE in Florida, but the crowds were more polite than super into what was happening. I think for the style to work, the psychology has to be better. As it is, these guys sort of just chain wrestle, then work holds, and then somebody taps out of nowhere 20 minutes in. If they are working towards these submissions, then it's been lost on me and a lot of other people. Then again, i'm usually so bored that I zone out, so maybe i'm not paying close enough attention, which is entirely possible. They seem to be making the mistake of thinking that when people say that they want their wrestling to 'realistic', they actually mean really realistic, not "realistic within the bounds of pro wrestling which in order to be good kind of needs some not really real drama thrown in". That's why subs out of nowhere - which happen all the time in grappling- are kind of a dumb thing to do all the time in pro wrestling matches. Though, they fail on their "realistic" attempts on any scale, since they end up doing 3/4 speed flow roles with some European uppercuts thrown in for flavour. These are good points. Personally, I don't get the appeal of simulated grappling, and find it dry. I'm not saying it can't get eventually get over, but i'm someone who has put in a genuine effort and it just doesn't work for me. The other problem is there seems to be a limited amount of people who can do it. It's always the same three guys. We've seen Sabre, Hero, & James Raideen in the mix, but Raideen got mostly bad reviews for the EVOLVE matches (I actually like his the best, which makes sense since they contained the least amount of grappling and were the furthest from the style), and I've seen tons of Zack Sabre Jr and I just don't see how he's like somebody like Thatcher at all. Maybe i'm watching the wrong ZSJ matches, idk. I'm sure other people will come out of the woodwork, but how many times can people watch the same three guys wrestle each other? Who else is doing this style beneath the radar that i'm not aware of?

Tonight. It looks like Busick worked Ciampa not Gulak Yeah, I saw that later when results came in. During the show, somebody tweeted that "Busick & Gulak were booed in PWG", and that's where myself, BillThompson, and others figured it was against each other.

The BOLA reaction was an anti-CZW thing. The past page and a bit are biased people criticising other people for being biased. Fact of the matter is Thatcher isn't the most charismatic wrestler in the World and you can't control a crowd (with reason) you are a poor professional. If the promotion and person were different people would be talking about how he was EXPOSED. Like how Tanahashi was exposed v. Mike Bennett? Tanahashi didn't get booed out of the building, so I don't understand the comparison. He worked a Mike Bennett match vs Mike Bennett. Everybody groaned when the match was announced because Bennett stinks, and I think we all got the match we thought we would, which was a typical 3-star Mike Bennett nothing match. There is a clear pattern of Thatcher, Gulak, & Busick not doing well in front of certain crowds. It isn't an easy style to adjust to. Many people (myself being one of them) find it extremely boring. It takes a while for new shit to get over sometimes. Maybe this eventually will. Gabe Sapolsky seems think it will. Who knows? Right now, it's over in Beyond Wrestling, which is mostly other wrestlers (I still don't really completely understand what Beyond is, with shows with no fans, "secret" shows, etc or how they make money). It sort of got over at EVOLVE in Florida, but the crowds were more polite than super into what was happening. I think for the style to work, the psychology has to be better. As it is, these guys sort of just chain wrestle, then work holds, and then somebody taps out of nowhere 20 minutes in. If they are working towards these submissions, then it's been lost on me and a lot of other people. Then again, i'm usually so bored that I zone out, so maybe i'm not paying close enough attention, which is entirely possible.

Tonight.

Well, obviously they didn't think it was great. Thatcher got booed at CZW, too. That style is a hard sell, especially at a PWG show. Reminds me of Big Show vs Batista at Hammerstein on WWECW. The infamous "change the channel" chants, with loud booing throughout. Made for great TV, especially with rattled Batista completely lost with no clue how to handle the reaction, so he just kept doing his scripted baby face routine and bombed so badly Vince vowed never to go back (and hasn't). Far cry from his great reactions when crowds turned on him this year, but the point here is crowd chants turned a shitty Big Show vs Batista match that nobody cared about or wanted on an ECW show in an old ECW building into something perversely entertaining. Not saying that's what happened at PWG, one just reminded me of the other.

Also, crowds can chant AND boo/cheer. And always do. It isn't one or the other.

The fans are not dictating how the wrestlers work with their chants. The wrestlers are eliciting those chants from the fans. Just the same as any other era, the wrestlers are the ones diving the reactions, not the other way around. I know some of you like to pretend today's wrestlers don't known how to work, but it sounds to me like you're the ones being worked here. Also, who says fans don't care who wins & loses? And why can't you care about who wins & loses, AND expect/want to be entertained? Of course I'm at the show to be entertained first & foremost, its a fucking work, the wrestlers are in complete control of providing entertaining performances. I'm sorry little old ladies arent sitting in the the front row whacking the heels with a cane. Times change. Fams show emotion differently now, that's all. Its not a negative reflection on the workers or the fans. Adapt or die.

This conversation has such a "get off my lawn!" feel. "This is awesome" is more of a salute to the wrestlers in the ring, a way for the fans to let them know they are loving the match. Same for "please don't stop". No different than lucha fans tossing money in the ring. It isn't really as much about expressing "i'm enjoying myself!". I don't see what's so obnoxious about it, or what makes screaming and clapping like a mental case any less mental or refined or not obnoxious. Those things aren't mutually exclusive anyway. These chants have mostly jumped the shark because crowds are too quick to do them these days, but well timed & appropriate chants are a fun part of the atmosphere and can add to a match for me.

I got caught up in Jimmy Jacobs bashing and forgot to make this point. One thing about Pillman that I always thought was that he wasn't exactly a graceful high flyer, especially for a guy with a flying gimmick. His flying always came off forced and a little awkward to me, like he knew he had to do it for the gimmick and to stand out, but also like he really wasn't thrilled about it. He's probably the least graceful looking flying wrestler I can think of. You see bigger guys like 2 Cold or Christopher Daniels literally gliding through the air, and then there is Pillman, stumbling up he turnbuckles and flying with the grace of a dump truck. It always struck me as odd, like it really wasn't him, and he was a guy playing a part.

Just watched a bunch of 1989, and Pillman really got the best out of Luger. He's a guy who I think would threaten the bottom part of my list. I can't fathom an argument for somebody like Jimmy Jacobs over Pillman, that to me comes off completely absurd, but then again I think Jacobs is pretty much dogshit so i'm probably the wrong person to be fair about it. But I don't see where Jacobs is better at anything than Pillman. Pillman even manages to smoke Jacobs at Jacobs own game as a mental case character with the loose cannon run at the end. What does Jacobs do better? Bleed? Sing?

I think Armstrong was a hell of a lot better than most of you guys do, but I don't think he was underpushed. I think he was pretty much born to play the role that he did. He was pretty much the perfect guy to put over heels on the way up, and to have good little TV matches on B-shows with other midcard workhorse types.