W2BTD

This wasn't a serious thing - it was Danielson as heel playing up to a stereotype and playing with the crowd, and them loving it. The crowd were just playing their role as part of the gimmick and feeling like they were involved in the product. This sounds so counter-productive that I don't know what to think of this. It was just ROH back then. The heels never got any proper heat, aside from maybe Jimmy Rave. So they turned Danielson in a sort of 'wink, wink' sort of way, where he would play up to heel stereotypes and all the things ROH fans hated about the WWE product like 'rest holds' and berating the crowd, or his exaggerated "I have till five" stuff. So them chanting "Same old shit" to him was just a reference to that, and the desired reaction. All a bit embarrassing looking back, but still a touch above the "This is awesome" and "Please don't stop" chants. I don't think it was embarrassing. And it wasn't counter productive at all. The guy was over like crazy. He was doing a subtle heel act, and it was sort of wink wink, but he was definitely the heel in the Delirious program for instance. Shades of gray in wrestling are always more interesting than black & white. ROH was wrestling for smarks that weren't interested in the same old tropes. It wasn't a promotion for old ladies sitting in the front row who still believed. Personally I think it's the most interesting character work he's ever done, as the guy who let "best in the world" get to his head, and I think 2006 was by far his best overall year. He could have went full on heel, but ironically that's more of the 'same old shit', plus it would have never worked because nobody was going to dislike him no matter what he did. It would be like all of those 80's promoters trying to get people to boo the Road Warriors. About crowd chants. The only crowd chant that has ever bothered me is "You fucked up", which is cringy & disrespectful. People who complain about crowd chants or complain that crowds are "putting themselves over" always come off as old curmudgeons to me. And this coming from someone who hardly ever makes a peep at shows beyond polite clapping. People pay for a ticket, they can have fun any way they please. We hear people complain every year about the post-Mania RAW crowd, but shit, I wish EVERY crowd was that hot. Those shows are can't miss because of the crowds. I went to a million ROH shows, and they were all a fun atmosphere. I wouldn't change a thing about those shows.

Those were also playful chants while he was doing a subtle heel gimmick and being repetitive by design.

Completely disagree that Bryan is better in WWE. Daniel Bryan is a dumbed down, sanitized, "lazy" version of Bryan Danielson. I put lazy in quotes, because I'm not saying he doesn't work hard in WWE, he most definitely does, but alot his matches are the super structured WWE style where anybody posting in this thread can call the spots before they happen. Very little variety, very little deviation from the formula. He's so good that he overcomes it, but creatively his stuff in WWE doesnt sniff what he was doing in ROH, particularly around 2006. He does what hes asked to do and does it very well, but I have no doubt he'd tell you privately he was doing better stuff from an artistic standpoint pre-WWE. And don't get me started on his character work, which while brilliantly handled on his part, is a total hiderance on having the kinds of matches he's best at. All of that said, probably a lock for my top ten. Maybe higher. He overcomes a style that annoys me, a giimick that annoys me, and a look that annoys me, and is still one of the best around.

Nothing wrong with a hot fast paced spot fest now & then. There is as much skill, creativity, & art involved at working that kind of pace and coming up with spot after spot to top none another as there is to any other sort of match. Not to mention the athletic & cardio requirements needed to pull it off successfully. Tozawa is the kind of guy who is elite in that type of environment, and also excels in other types of matches as well. That's why he's a contender for something like this at such an early stage of his career.

Welp, now I have to go watch both, because it's been years and honestly I don't know. And maybe the one I didn't see was better.

Did any of Brad's WWECW matches make tape? I don't think he ever worked TV, but are there any handhelds of the house show matches floating around?

The Armstrong/Windham Clash match for the TV title is better than any Rotunda singles match I can think of, and I'm not even sure if that's the best Armstrong match i've seen (it's just the first one that popped into my head that I don't think Rotunda can match). Armstrong is a guy that won't fill the page with super high level stuff because he wasn't ever pushed hard enough to be put in a position to have classic matches. But if you are talking about guys who delivered good matches in whatever role he was asked to fill in a given time, he's right up there on the list with anybody, from Regal to Owen Hart to whoever else you want to talk about. People talk about great "TV" workers, well I can't think of many better than Armstrong. He'd have a real chance at my list. Love his work.

The Midnight Rockers/Sommers & Rose cage match is one of the most overrated matches ever. The first time I watched it, I came away baffled at what the fuss was all about. I've easily seen thousands of better matches.

Masters works plenty, but rarely works places that make tape. The few times i've seen him since the release, he has always worked hard. He had an NWA World Title match in Houston that I saw live that I had around ****. As it is, not nearly enough great stuff on tape to make a list like this.

Dupree was seen as a big time prospect in those days, and was probably only 19 or 20 when that match took place. He's still only 30 years old, which is incredible because his entire North American major league career is very likely behind him, and has been for years. He's now working in the W1 office, as their English language liaison & foreign talent booker. He never met is expectations. He's a pretty dreadful pro wrestler.

It recently came to light (through Batista for sure, and I believe Daniel Bryan in media interviews) that WWE wrestlers are told to not sell injuries from PPV the next day at TV, because the fans at the next show don't care about what happened at the previous one. That reminds me of something one of the ex-creative team members brought up in an interview a few years ago. He said during a creative meeting when he was new to the company, he brought up a continuity issue, and was shot down immediately by Vince who told him "I can't remember what happened on the show two weeks ago, do you think the viewers do?"

Are these little potshots at the forum necessary? In my experience here, people are generally pretty willing to give credit where it's due, no matter the promotion or era. Where is the potshot? The Bully run last year was very Memphis like. The promos, thw angles, the style of work. People here like Memphis. Nobody here pays attention to TNA. Other nomination threads make that clear. I think people who dig Memphis would see some things they liked in that Bully run.

I'll go this far with that run. Had it occurred in Memphis in 1982, he'd be a top 50 contender with a lot of people here. Like a lot of people being discussed, the anti TNA bias (which is understandable) is hurting resumes.

I'm not going to die on a hill for Bully Ray, who I don't even like very much, but his promos are far from poor, especially during the Aces & Eights period (including the run up) when they were flat out great. Also he isn't Misawa, but the Aries matches in particular were really good. Aries is excellent and had a hand in that for sure, but they were really good big man/little man matches that fit the Bully character to a tee. Bully really had a handle on his gimmick and did a fine job during that period, even if A&8 ran stale quickly.

There are very few wrestlers, probably zero, who sell body parts (particularly legs) while making a big baby face comeback. When they do, it really stands out, because nobody ever does it. This is an example where selling is used as a criticism crutch IMO. You can literally knock any babyface ever for this. Tetsuya Naito's 2013 G1 was very annoying for this reason, but to me he really deserved the criticism because he was returning from a knee injury and every match was built around opponents going after the knee. And sure enough, there he was, flying around during his comebacks. THAT drove me nuts, and I'm not someone who harps on focused selling or let's it ruin a match for me. Anyway, in the case of Michaels, I'm with Gregor on this one. Selling is one of his strengths. I can't kill him for ignoring the leg on his comebacks. Wrestling is worked after all, there has to be some creative license with these things when it comes to selling, or every match looks like McIntyre/Masters. To me it's nit picky in some of these cases.

That would be pretty low on my list of Cena critiques, although his closing stretches are very ROH like with finisher spamming/near falls so from that perspective I could see some people maybe thinking that. That stuff doesn't bother me, I think in most cases it's exciting. His glaring weaknesses are really bad strikes (even noticeable to someone like me who generally doesn't care about that, but his ugly punches are legendary), and weak looking offense (gently lays his opponent down on his Attitude Adjustment fireman's carry, his STF shows a ton of light to the point other wrestlers rib him publicly for it). I think overall selling is one of his strengths. He takes a convincing beating IMO.

Sting Wolfie D I mean, WOLFIE D C'mon.

Plus they curtained off part of the room for the entrance set. Exactly. Technically they "sold out" in the sense they sold every ticket, but they have an entire side curtained off. Normally Korakuen holds a little over 2000 fans, tonights show didn't have nearly that many seats for sale.

Rewatched the second Tanahashi match, and I vastly underrated it on first watch (I gave it 4-stars). I can totally see where dave was coming from with 5. No wasted time with matwork or grappling. They get right into beating each other up, which is what the story called for. The work is intense, and the pace is actually pretty incredible and speaks to the cardio of each man. The structure is great, the peaks are perfect, but that's par for the Tanahashi course. The callbacks to G1 and the creative reversals are beautifully done. The match really has no flaws, aside from the somewhat abrupt finish. I can't go five, but it;s much better than four. Probably ****1/2, ****3/4. I would go somehwre in between if I could.

I will never stop being impressed with the way some of you can rattle off WWE matches like this. I wouldn't remember most of these even existed until I clicked play, and then I probably wouldn't remember half of them even at that point. For whatever reason WWE matches bleed into each other in my brain. Maybe it;s because the shows have all looked identical for the last decade +. Same set, same ramp, same graphics, same ring, same announcers. Idk. The level of recall you guys have just amazes me.

Taka is actually a very good comparison.

If you don't mind illegally downloading stuff I'd recommend his match with Chris Hero from Battle of Los Angeles 2010 and if you wanna watch something already on YouTube: Akira Tozawa and BxB Hulk vs Naruki Doi and Ricochet from Kobe Festival 2013 People here will hate that tag, even though I think its an all time great tag match. Total spot fest, but probably the best total spot fest in recent memory.

So here's the thing about Mochizuki... Nope, not gonna do it. Alan has to have first crack at this.

I think a "big match" in modern WWE would be an important main event on an important show. Maybe the rare semi main event too on a loaded show. Certainly any Mania man event. Summer Slam. I don't think every PPV main event in this era would qualify as a "big match", because they clearly run some non important big picture stuff out there on your common B-shows.

I was just raving about this guy over on the VOW board. Super charismatic, and gets over instantly anywhere he goes. A great worker, very diverse. Can do comedy, can be an asshole "I want to smack this motherfucker" heel, great underdog babyface, and can be the superhero. Great bump & sell guy, which stands out in Dragon Gate for obvious reasons. Very good facials, which is why he connects with crowds so well. It seems like Dragon Gate, which isn't afraid to pass the title around, is saving his title win for something special. He's still young and is a guy who probably has most of his best stuff ahead of him. Don't forget his U.S. excursion stuff from around '09, and his DGUSA run where he was the best & most over guy in the company.