slabinski611

Two things that have always bugged me about theFlair/Steamboat and Flair/Funk matches from 89 that Dave rated. First, am I the only one who thought Flair/Steamboat from wrestlewar was the least of their 89 series. I think the other four matches they had were off the charts with the clash match being the best but I know I've seen claims of the wrestlewar match not just being the best of the series, but the greatest of all time. Second, am I the only one who puts the GAB match ahead of the I quit match ? I mean, I think it's a very good match but the GAB match is much more heated and has the big brawl at the end.

I don't know if there were any matches with Naked Mideon but if so they should be moved to the top of the list. Also, doomsday cage match from Uncensored 96 for its stupidity. Hogan/Savage vs 8 guys with no real rules to the match. Of course it ends with Flair taking the fall.

Heroes of Wrestling: The Jake Roberts incident. If you want to give that show a pass for being a one time indy show that was in over its head, then I would say The Demon vs Vampiro BATB 2000. Really, the whole Vampiro/Sting/Kiss Demon thing around that time was one of those embarassed to be a fan type angles.

Ok, maybe a stupid question. I want to go back and watch some of the Tito/Valentine series since I have only seen a handful of their matches. My problem with watching a series of matches is I cannot tell them apart unless it has the year or month in the description. There has to be an easy way around this correct ?

I haven't checked out the yearbook threads in a while and this is as good a match as any to get back into it. This match holds a special place in my heart. Strangely, while Flair was the face of the nwa in the 80s, I didn't start watching wcw until the fall of 91. I started with the 9/91 clash because there was a battle royal and I loved battle royals at the time. I recognized the One Man Gang from wwf. I became more interested when Rick Rude appeared the next month as he was a wwf mainstay and I drew parallels between Rude/Warrior and Rude/Sting. Then came the 11/91 clash. I remembered Arn from the brainbusters and Dustin from the Dibiase angle.When Steamboat came out I was hooked. I would go on to watch wcw til the end through the good the bad and the ugly. As for the match, I have this as #3 wcw MOTD behind only wargames and Rude/Steamboat ironman. The only other tag me to this imo are the superbrawl2 tag and the mx/rnr and mx/southern boys tags from 1990. Best part about this match is the heat segment on steamboat. I like the idea of wearing down the veteran steamboat and keeping the less experienced dustin on the apron.Match was a perfect length too. I would have liked to have seen a rematch of this on saturday night. I don't know if there is a match of it but I would have liked to see enforcers vs dustin/barry also.

Several parts of this topic I want to address. Once Warrior is put over Hogan, were people turning away because of the lack of credible heels for Warrior or were they just tiring of the Hogan formula ? The reason I ask is because Earthquake was a fresh heel for Hogan and if Hogan was still considered the draw with or without the title then I don't see where it should have hurt business. Btw, I think Rude was rejected in 1990 much more because of his jobbing to Piper than him working with Warrior the previous year. Ithought he looked strong in the Warrior feud even in losing the IC belt back at Summerslam. I like the idea of pushing Warlord/Barbarian as singles since it would be something new. I don't know if it would get over but it was worth a shot. Any thoughts on grabbing any of these guys from wcw in 1990 for fresh talent ? Sid- already mentioned and eventually signed but he could have been used sooner. Norman- Big fat guy which Vince likes Abdulah the Butcher- Abby was with the NWA in the beginning of 1990. As long as you make sure he doesn't blade he would make a great heel. He would need a manager to speak for him but so what. Bam Bam Bigelow- Never worked heel for Vince up to that point. Curtis Hughes- When was the Mr. Hughes gimmick created. I don't think it was until later on but I think he could have worked despite his brief 93 run. DR. Death Steve Williams- Ron Simmons

OK, before I get to the second half of my post let me say that one reason I didn't notice any drop until after Warrior was on top was because I was only 6 years old in 1989 and I live in the northeast which is wwf country. I lived for the wwf. Seriously, if they advertised a Red Rooster vs Koko B Ware in a rubber chicken on a pole match, I would be begging my parents to buy the ppv for me. Now back on subject. The second half of 89 saw Dusty and Piper both brought in which only added to the depth of babyfaces. With Rude dropping the belt back to Warrior at Summerslam he was then paired up with Piper and you can guess who went over in that feud. Dusty was brought in as a midcard comedy act and paired with Bossman. Dusty would get over more than expected considering his spot on the roster. Since Bossman slid back down the card after Hogan and Rude losing credibility after Piper that takes us to Andre. It's kind of hard for someone the size of Andre to not have credibility as a heel but with his health he was reduced to doing 30 second jobs to Warrior at the end of 89 before being paired up with haku. Dibiase kept his feud with Jake going the whole year until WM6. He was still over but he was stale. The Hogan/Savage feud was still hot in large part thanks to the Zeus angle. The guy was only in 3 matches and he couldn't wrestle but they built that whole angle perfectly. You just couldn't get around the fact that once it was time for an actual match, Zeus couldn't wrestle. So at the end of 89 that leaves us with: 1. Hogan 2. Warrior 3. Piper 4. Beefcake 5. Jake 6. Dusty 7. Duggan All of these guys were over as far as babyfaces. As far as heels go, Barry Windahm was brought in but failed. Hennig finally started getting over imo when he was paired up with the Genuis and put with Hogan. Martel would get over as a midcard heel act but not until late 1990. Earthquake would get over huge but not yet. So the heel side of things would look like this at the end of 89: 1. Savage (quickly losing steam) 2. Rude (needs rebuilding) 3. Dibiase (needs rebuilding) 4. Perfect I can't even come up with 5 heels worth listing to be honest. While having your heels constantly fed to your faces is bad, I think the death of territories really shows here. Even in 89/90 there were not as many places to grab new talent like a few years earlier.

I didn't put this in armchair booking because I saw this as more of a discussion than fantasy booking. As it's been said, Warrior going over Hogan at WMVI is seen by many as the point when business dropped but I've read that things began to fall apart in 1989. What I would like is to look a little deeper into why this happened and get some ideas on how they could have kept things status quo. If you start at WMV and work through 1990 you will see how much the faces went over strong and the decline of credible heels. If you take the top 5 faces/heels in 4/89 it would look something like this: Faces: 1. Hogan 2. Warrior 3. Jake Roberts 4. Duggin 5. Beefcake Heels: 1. Savage 2. Rick Rude 3. Andre 4. Dibiase 5. Bossman Hogan was untouchable at that point and wasn't jobbing to anyone after just getting the belt back. Warrior just dropped the IC belt to Rude via interference but otherwise is kept strong. Jake regularly went over Dibiase in their feud. Duggin was consistently going over in matches against haku at the time. He did jobs but was one of Hogans buddies so he was somewhat protected. Beefcake was Hogans right hand man so while he was jobbing to Savage on house shows, it was always by interference from sherri so he kept his heat. As for the heels, Savage would either go over beefcake with help or job to Hogan. Rude was being kept strong with the IC title. Dibiase jobbed to Jake. Andre was doing dq losses to John Studd on house shows and the Bossman either jobbed to Hogan or wrestled in tag matches with Akeem. Before I get to late 89, I'd like to get some thoughts on what they could have changed at the time. Savage keeping the title might sound good but there was no way Hogan wasn't going over at WM5 after not having the belt for more than a year. Maybe push some new heels or turn someone heel ? There was less new talent being brought in also. Thoughts ?

I completely buy that HTM was in the deepest darkest corner of the doghouse after refusing to job to Savage. The question I have is why wait to job him to Warrior at Summerslam. They just as easily could have given him the Bob Backlund/Wendi Richter treatment on a house show and if they wanted. It didn't have to be to Savage. It could have been to anyone. I love how in one of HTM shoot interviews he made it sound like wwf asked him how he wanted to drop the belt to Warrior and what did he think was the best way to go about it. Seriously, if HTM put up a fight about jobbing at Summerslam, I think we would have seen another phantom title switch.

'] Loss- I think you and a lot more members of this board have a ton more wrestling knowledge than I do but I still have to debate a few things. If it was so matter of fact that they switched from Dibiase to Savage because of Vince being worried about Savage shooting on HTM and just wanting a heel to play placeholder for Hogan until WM5 then how do you explain the 10/87 SNME. That episode was filmed in 9/87 which would suggest there were plans for Hogan/Savage from that point. I don't doubt at all that they promised Dibiase the belt or that HTM refused to job to Savage. It just doesn't seem right that there weren't plans for Hogan/Savage after the SNME from October. I also think Savage was above the IC title by Feb 88. If Dibiase goes over at WM, is Savage the one chasing him through the year with Hogan away ? That would tie up your IC champion in the World title picture and take away your top secondary program. Also, any thoughts on Dibiase going over at WM and dropping it to Savage at Summerslam while having Hogan/Andre in a cage like the wrestlefest card from 7/88. That way Hogan still celebrates with Savage winning the title and they still have the Megapowers angle.

I know this is off topic but can someone make a seperate thread and explain to me the whole bubble popping in 1989 ? This is not the first place I've heard it either. At the time, I felt there was a decline in quality in 1990 and I felt it was a combination of Warrior not being able to carry the company and less fresh talent being brought in. However, I know I've seen it elsewhere that while people talk about the drop in 1990 that the writing was on the wall in 1989. I need that one explained as I didn't see it that way.

I love some of these ideas. I'm intrigued by the booking around this time because there is no clear cut way to book things other than the way it happened. I know Dibiase has said he was promised a run with the belt but is it concrete that HTM was suppose to drop the IC title to Savage or was it just something that came from htm himself ? If Savage was suppose to go over Honky, does he channel Warrior at wm6 and go on to win the wwf title while holding the IC belt at the same time ? If that is the case, you would prabably have to have a tournament for the IC title as well and I can't see them having two tournaments in the same calendar year. Also, was the tourney always the plan for wm4 ? If so then I can only see Hogan or Savage going over. I can't for the life of me see a heel winning the main event match of wrestlemania. This was the wwf in the 80s, not the NWA.

Since there is a lot of Macho Man love on this board, I thought I would throw this out there even though it has been discussed to death. I have never been able to figure out the booking strategy surrounding this ppv. With all of the talk of Dibiase being givin the belt and Honkey refusing to job the IC belt to Savage, things obviously worked out for the best. But what if it didn't work out that way. I will list some points below and maybe I can get some feedback. 1. What if Hogan doesn't need time off for his movie ? Does he keep the belt for the year and then defend it against a heel turned Savage at wmv ? If so, who does Hogan defend against at wm4 ? Where does this leave Dibiase ? 2. Honky agrees to drop the IC belt to Savage at Main Event but Hogan needs the time off for his movie. Does this leave us with Dibiase going over Hogan for the title with maybe Savage defending the IC title against HTM in a rematch ? Would they really end WM4 with the heel going over in the main event over Hulk Hogan ?

Real World Tag League Night 6 1. Hart Foundation over Rougeous in 14 minutes 2. Rock n Roll Express over Rose/Somers in 13 minutes 3. Fantastics over Freebirds in 10 minutes 4. Road Warriors over Midnight Rockers in 4 minutes 5. Midnight Express over Andersons in 15 minutes 6. Dream Team over British Buldogs in 17 minutes 7.UWF TV Title: Savanah Jack over Terry Taylor in 7 minutes 8. AWA Womens Title: Sherri Martel over Kat Leroux in 5 minutes 9. NWA World Title: Ric Flair over Barry Windham in 40 minutes Real World Tag League Standings through Night 6 Road Warriors 12 points Hart Foundation 12 points Midnight Express 9 points British Bulldogs 9 points Dream Team 6 points Andersons 6 points Rock n Roll Express 6 points Fantastics 4 points Freebirds 4 points Rose/Somers 2 points Midnight Rockers 2 points Rougeous 0 points

I'm sure Foley has been discussed to death but I would like some things cleared up for me and maybe it will gather some conversation on the time frame. Vince was never interested in acknowledging someones' background. He always liked for the wwf to exist in its own world. Here are some talking points I will give. 1. What led to the sit down interview with Jim Ross and why did Vince decide to go into Foley's background with other promotions the way he did. What did you think about that at the time. 2. What did you think of the Dude Love character and what was your reaction to the debut of the character with the tag title match. 3. What was your reaction to see them use the Cactus Jack character considering Vince didn't like using gimmicks that were someone else's idea. Also, while it may be beating a dead horse, I didn't have internet access until late 1999 so I have one more question that I am sure must have been covered a ton but... 4. What were the reactions at the time to the KOTR98/Rumble 99 matches. I ordered both of those ppvs at the time. I thought both cage bumps were planned as UT wouldn't just do that but I thought Vince coming out was legit concern and the stretcher was legit until he got up. As for the I Quit match, even before I seen beyond the mat, I thought those chair shots were ugly looking

Real World Tag League Night 5 1. British Buldogs over Fantastics in 14 minutes 2. Midnight Rockers over Rougeous in 10 minutes 3. Dream Team over Rose/Somers in 10 minutes 4. Midnight Express over Freebirds in 14 minutes 5. Hart Foundation over Rock n Roll Express in 20 minutes 6. Road Warriors over Andersons in 10 minutes 7. NWA TV Title: Tully Blanchard over Wahoo Mcdaniel in 9 minutes 8. WWF IC Title: Randy Savage over Tito Santana in 17 minutes 9. AWA World Title: Nick Bockwinkel over Greg Gagne in 15 minutes Real World Tag League Standings through Night 5 Road Warriors 10 points Hart Foundation 10 points British Bulldogs 9 points Midnight Express 7 Points Andersons 6 points Rock n Roll Express 4 points Dream Team 4 points Freebirds 4 points Rose/Somers 2 points Fantastics 2 points Midnight Rockers 2 points Rougeous 0 points

Real World Tag League Night 4 1. Road Warrios over Dream Team in 15 minutes 2. Freebirds over Rougeous in 8 minutes 3. Rose/Somers over Midnight Rockers in 15 minutes 4. Hart Foundation over Andersons in 8 minutes 5. Midnight Express over Fantastics in 20 minutes 6. British Buldogs DRAW Rock n Roll Express in 30 minutes 7. NWA U.S. Title: Nikita Koloff over Rick Rude in 6 minutes 8. Mid South Title: One Man Gang DCO Steve Williams in 7 minutes 9. WWF World Title: Hulk Hogan over Paul Orndorff in 16 minutes Standings after night 4: Road Warriors 8 points Hart Foundation 8 points British Buldogs 7 points Andersons 6 points Midnight Express 5 points Rock n Roll Express 4 points Freebirds 4 points Rose/Somers 2 points Fantastics 2 points Dream Team 2 points Rougeous 0 points Midnight Rockers 0 points

I have a few more questions I will throw out regarding the WMVII main events and the whole moving the ppv to a different location. 1. Assuming they moved the event because of poor advance and assuming they were originally planning Hogan/Warrior 2, was there really any matchup they could have booked that would fill the L.A. Colliseum ? 2. Hogan/Andre filled the Pontiac Silverdome for WMIII and I don't know the exact number but the lowest I have seen was 78,000. Was this a sellout ? Hogan/Warrior drew 67,000. Is this accurate and was it a sellout ? Considering how much Canada loved Hogan that number doesn't surprise me. The point I am trying to get to is this: What made them think they can fill the Colliseum in the first place. 3. Would they have done better business if they put Earthquake in Slaughters role ? Maybe book a tag match at summerslam of Quake/Bravo vs Hogan/Bossman with Bravo taking the fall. Then have Earthquake go over Warrior at Rumble. Then have him drop it to Hogan at WM. I don't think it would make much difference, just throwing it out there.

I am so happy this thread was made because I was thinking about the whole Warrior/Savage/Slaughter/Hogan situation recently. A few questions of my own I will pinpoint that maybe someone can answer. 1. If Slaughter isn't brought in in the summer, what were the plans for Rumble/WM ? 2. Was Hogan/Warrior 2 ever officially planned for WMVII before Slaughter came in ? If so, even though Warrior wasn't drawing, what made them think a Hogan/Slaughter program would draw significantly more ? 3. If Savage/Liz marriage was still intact around the time Vince was looking for him to return, wouldn't unretiring be a reason for the marriage to break ?

Anyone want to pm me some names of who was in the singles titles picture for awa and mid south around the end of 86 ?

Real World Tag League Night 3 1. Andersons over Rose/Somers in 6 minutes 2. Fantastics over Rougeous in 15 minutes 3. Midnight Express over Midnight Rockers in 20 minutes 4. Hart Foundation over Dream Team in 15 minutes 5. British Buldogs over Freebirds in 9 minutes 6. Road Warriors over Rock n Roll Express in 18 minutes 7. UWF TV Title: Savanah Jack over Eddie Gilbert in 7 minutes 8. AWA Womens Title: Sherri Martel over Debbie Combs in 5 minutes 9. NWA World Title: Ric Flair over Ron Garvin in 25 minutes Tag League Standings after day 3: Road Warriors 6 points Hart Foundation 6 points British Buldogs 6 points Andersons 6 points Rock n Roll Express 3 points Midnight Express 3 points Fantastics 2 points Freebirds 2 points Dream Team 2 points Rose/Somers 0 points Rougeous 0 points Midnight Rockers 0 points

Real World Tag League Night 2 1. Road Warriors over Fantastics in 8 minutes 2. Hart Foundation over Rose/Somers in 10 minutes 3. Dream Team over Midnight Rockers in 18 minutes 4. British Buldogs over Rougeous in 15 minutes 5. Andersons over Freebirds in 6 minutes 6. Rock n Roll Express DRAW Midnight Express in 30 minutes 7. WWF IC Title: Randy Savage over George Steele in 5 minutes 8. NWA U.S. Title: Nikita Koloff over Manny Fernandez in 6 minutes 9. AWA World Title: Nick Bockwinkel over Curt Hennig in 27 minutes Standings after day 2 are: Road Warriors- 4 points Hart Foundation- 4 points British Buldogs- 4 points Andersons- 4 points Rock n Roll Express 3 points Freebirds- 2 points Dream Team- 2 points Midnight Express 1 points Fantastics- 0 points Rose/Somers- 0 points Midnight Rockers- 0 Points Rougeous- 0 Points

Dates for the 1986 RWTL are as follow: 11/27 (thanksgiving) 11/29 saturday 11/30 sunday 12/5 friday 12/6 saturday 12/7 sunday 12/13 saturday 12/14 sunday 12/20 saturday 12/21 sunday 12/25 thursday Real World Tag League Opening Night 1. Rock n Roll Express over Rougeous in 19 minutes 2. Freebirds over Dream Team in 10 minutes 3. Hart Foundation over Fantastics in 16 minutes 4. Road Warriors over Rose/Somers in 8 minutes 5. Andersons over Midnight Rockers in 15 minutes 6. British Buldogs over Midnight Express in 18 minutes 7. NWA TV Title: Dusty Rhodes over Tully Blanchard in 12 minutes by dq 8. Mid South Title: One Man Gang over Jim Duggan in 8 minutes 9. WWF Title: Hulk Hogan over Kamala in 10 minutes. STANDINGS after day 1: Road Warriors-2 points Hart Foundation-2 points Rock n Roll Express-2 points British Buldogs-2 points Andersons-2 points Freebirds-2 points Fantastics-0 points Dream Team-0 points Rose/Somers-0 points Rougeous-0 points Midnight Rockers-0 points Midnight Express-0 points I will post day 2 results tomorrow or monday.

I'll second the vote for Schivoni during the BATB96 main event. The best part is the final exchange. Gene: Tony,Bobby,Dusty DAMNIT lets get back to you ! Tony: Alright we have seen the end of hulkamania. For Bobby the brain Heenan, For for Dusty Rhodes. I don't know. I'm Tony Schivoni HULK HOGAN YOU CAN GO TO HELL! WE'RE OUTTA HERE. STRAIGHT TO HELL !!!. (slams headset) end of show. Unlike some of the later nwo stuff where tony goes over the top, I thought this was appropriate and the best possibly response to the biggest heel turn of all time.