C.S.

Because Owens is not being presented as "a repackaged indy guy on a WWE b-show." How you perceive Owens vs. his actual character and push are are two wildly different things, apparently.

I didn't mean that particular chant specifically, just the general trend of smark chants like that, which were more or less popularized in ECW. Agreed. That's the exact point I was trying to make. You worded it perfectly.

Not guilty! All of the things Heyman and ECW are being raked over hot coals for in this thread were an absolute necessity at the time. - The brand being the true star: With talent constantly being poached by the big two (mostly WCW), this was quite frankly smart business. - Fans being "a part of the show": At the time, both the WWF and WCW were so sterile and corporate that the fans were kept "at a safe distance." ECW was the antithesis of that. Its shows had a homegrown, grassroots feel, and this was a major part of that. Again, smart business. I hate the "This is Awesome," etc. type of smark bullshit now as much as anyone else, but I understand why it was encouraged at the time. It made ECW different, and that was important. - Hardcore style: Damaging, yes - but ECW also showcased technical wrestling and lucha libre before WCW made the latter a staple on Nitro. Heyman, for better or worse, basically let the wrestlers do what they wanted, and they all wanted to top each other. Saying Credible was "never over" is a gross exaggeration IMO. He had a solid following. Pushing him to the World Title was a mistake, but I think the recognition of that and subsequent backlash only happened in hindsight - pretty immediate hindsight at the time, but still. RVD's push has been covered very well in this thread, so I have nothing to add to that. It's obvious his injury derailed whatever plans were in place for him.

People criticizing Cena's use of the Code Red Fruity Pebble are missing the point entirely. Maybe you don't like the move and/or don't like Cena using "finishers" as random high spots - and that's fair enough - but the story of the match was a desperate Cena doing anything and everything to beat Owens, and that came across perfectly through the move, Cena arguing with the ref, showing frustration, etc. It has nothing to do with "OMG, Cena pulled out an ROH/PWG/whatever move." Yeah, okay, that's "nice," but it means nothing if there's no story or logic behind it, and there was in this case.

Cena is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, it seems. He changed up his style a little bit, and people are blasting him for it, even though it made perfect sense and told a good story in the context of this match.

I got the Sheamus MITB win and Roman/Wyatt "who cares?" brawl spoiled for me on Facebook, so I ended up only watching the final three matches and some other misc. stuff. - Awesome Dusty tributes throughout the show. - Paige's promo before the Divas match wasn't bad at all, especially her mention of Dusty at the end, and the finish with the switcheroo and tissued boobs was funny enough, but I won't lie and say I watched the match itself, because I didn't. - As I mentioned, I skipped the MITB match itself after being spoiled on it. These multi-man ladder match spotfests bore me now. I just don't care about them anymore. Have I officially become an old man? Sheamus winning was a "surprise," yes, but I don't see where they can go with it. Almost no World Title feud/scenario involving him is compelling to me. The Roman/Bray feud also doesn't interest me in the least. Bray Wyatt's act flat out doesn't work for me at the moment. It's not believable. It feels like a person playing a bad over-the-top character. - Cena/Owens wasn't as good as last month (still good though), and the post-match was the same shit he's been doing in NXT. With that said, I loved all of the little touches - such as Cena arguing with the ref, showing frustration, etc. And Cena's Canadian Destroyer Code Red...wow. The Springboard Stunner looked botched in the original camera angle but it looked fine during the replay from a different angle. Anyone who says Cena isn't a good wrestler can shove it. - Prime Time Players vs. New Day was okay...nothing special. The pre-match promo with New Day was fun, but I'm glad PTP won. I thought they should've been pushed two years ago when A.W. was still with them. - The main event wasn't bad, but I was hoping it would end with both of them clutching the belt. That would be new, at least. Kind of surprised they made such a big deal of Rollins - a heel - winning cleanly. Don't see how that helps Ambrose.

He looks pretty good to me now. Yeah, he had drug problems, injuries, etc. But he got out, made positive changes in his life, and is doing pretty well for himself from all accounts. Hard to call that anything other than a success story - especially by wrestling standards. Here's a recap. Seems like more of the same old BS from DeMott and the usual softballs from Chris "Conversation Between Friends" Jericho. http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2015/6/12/8772305/bill-demott-defends-wwe-nxt-training-philosophy-chris-jericho-podcast Agreed! Goldberg and Warrior's subsequent comebacks did nothing for them. Imagine if they'd had just their one big run. Even so, they're still perfect examples of this, and their superstar status remains more or less intact anyway.

I feel the exact same way.

I don't recall exactly what Mero said back then. Was it that bad? I'm suspecting he was out of the "bubble" by then and told the truth people didn't want to hear?

The way "the boys" in general have piled on Mero over the years is something I've always found disgusting and hypocritical. Today, most of them are on drugs, broken down, or worse, while Mero is inspiring people all around the world with his motivational speaking. It seems Mero got out with his health and self-respect intact. I know which set of boots I'd rather be in.

Is Big Johnny really to blame though, or was he just being a meek, mousy yes man giving the boss - Vince - what he wanted? Based on BJ's Japanese background, I find it hard to believe that he'd have a big man fetish. That's a Vince staple through and through. Yes, things are different now with H, but only because H is family and has more leeway to voice his opinions and chart his own direction.

That is a pretty sorry ass collection of trainers. Again, I realize being a top star doesn't necessarily make someone a good wrestler instructor, but Good God, could they have scraped the bottom of the barrel more with those choices?

I'm not sure, but both Goldberg (positively) and Batista (negatively) seemed to refer to Sarge as the main trainer at the Power Plant, so there's that...

With Batista being the most famous example probably. I won't sit here and claim Batista was the second coming of Lou Thesz, but that's a prime example of all the money WCW chased away - just one of the many reasons they're now out of business. Putting a total nobody like Sarge in that kind of position is another head-scratcher to me. Look, I know better than to think only headliners can be good wrestling instructors - I'm aware of many examples, such as Johnny Rodz, who were lower card wrestlers and great trainers - but I'm having a hard time figuring out anything Sarge brought to the table in the ring, as a personality, you name it. Yeah, Goldberg bends over backward to give Sarge credit, but Sarge didn't teach Goldberg's charisma and presence - and he sure as hell didn't teach Goldberg much wrestling either.

Not letting me to add to Watchlist. I hate how clunky and beta test the Network still feels after all this time.

Holy shit... What a shock.

What's wrong with the picture?

From J.R.'s latest blog post: He's not wrong.

I watched the Bloopers thing last night, based on Chief's recommendation. I had fun with it, but it would've been better if the entire show had been filled with bloopers. I don't consider stuff like GTV a blooper. Also, I find it in bad taste to make fun of Mike Adamle because the poor guy has epilepsy, which was the cause of most of his on-air slip-ups. Springer has the charisma of dry toast though, and seems overly rehearsed. Show some excitement, will you? I know he doesn't really care about wrestling, but he could at least fake it. Still, at only 29 minutes, I think it's worth watching because the Gene stuff was gold. I do agree with El-P that all of the censoring took away from the fun though. But that is what you have to expect in a PG environment. I also watched Ready to Rumble last night (not on the Network), but that's another story for another time...

Was Curtis Hughes in the Big Cat role back then or someone else?

Anyone else try watching Rey Mysterio: Life of a Masked Man? It's the newest "Beyond the Ring" on the Network - all of which come from from previous DVDs, of course. It's done in a sitdown interview style with Rey and Matt Striker. I got through about half of it before turning it off. Striker looks like he's in love with Rey for the whole thing (I'm not exaggerating), and he asks the most obvious questions (probably not his fault since this can't exactly be a "shoot interview," I guess), so we learn absolutely nothing new. With that said, I'm surprised Konnan and other people like that were spoken about so favorably on a WWE production. This is the kind of thing that demanded a documentary and footage of Rey going through Mexico and talking about all of the important landmarks in his career - childhood home, uncle's ring, arenas, etc. The sitdown interview format would be great for certain wrestlers, but it doesn't work for Rey at all. Probably doesn't help that Rey's voice is very throaty and scratchy, like a kid going through puberty. Striker is equally as annoying, going out of his way to roll his R's and pronounce the wrestlers' names the same way a native Mexican/Spanish speaker would. It's obnoxious!

I could be wrong, but I don't remember Rusev losing. I remember him squashing Breeze and someone else on the first NXT Takeover special, and then he was on the main roster. As for vacating the title and running a tournament, Vince doesn't like tournaments and WWE has never handled them well. Even the recent NXT tournament was nothing special. There's an easy way for Kevin Owens to lose the title without also losing his credibility. Cena makes a special appearance on NXT, costs Owens the belt, does the "you can't see me" hand motion, and gets booed out of the building. But even that isn't necessary. A straight-up loss to Samoa Joe wouldn't hurt him one bit. Truthfully though, I don't know if I want Joe (or Balor) to be the next champion. Zayn regaining the title would've been perfect, but I'm guessing he's too injured for that. There are no other major babyfaces I can think of, and perish the thought of a stiff like Baron Corbin getting it, but I could see that happening. :\ I'd love a Tyler Breeze reign, but not at the expense of Owens.

Surprised no one has mentioned Cena vs. Angle. Does Cena vs. Zayn count? Might be too soon to tell...

In case anyone wants to see that atrocious angle: BTW, TNA posted an update on the condition of Mickie James. Surprise Surprise, she's not dead. http://www.impactwrestling.com/news/item/6442-Update-on-the-Condition-of-Mickie-James What an embarrassment!

Yeah, that was my point... Unless Owens starts speaking French, he doesn't sound that much different from the average American vs. someone like Cocoa Beach's very own (lol) Rick "The Model" Martel, who has Quebecois stamped all over him.