Strand Peanut

Learn something everyday. Bruno ever talk about this?

He was young still. The Bruno angle had limited legs, especially the way it played. But essentially, it was time for him to travel. There may be some scuttlebutt out there, but that's always seemed most likely to me.

Any promotion that treats wins and losses as unimportant is one that won't last. Some wins, or a loss, are more important and drive the narrative. But not necessarily all. In sport, the less matches, the more narrative you can develop between the match. One win can be monumental in a 16 match league. Not so much with say 116. So it's maximizing how those wins matter. Depends a lot on the setup right?

BattleARTS gym matches also spring to mind. I'm guessing Japan is the only place that comes close to having elements of what's being discussed. Even then, it'd be a stretch to call it minimalism. Like a Beckett play as minimalist theatre. You can give it a go, but it's not really so cut and dry. You have to deal with the audience part.. I've heard and read people making the case that anything "shoot style" isn't even pro wrestling. I'm not making that case. It's not one that's made much anymore, that oxygen went to MMA. But, I do think it's illustrative for this discussion. As in, the closer you move to minimalism, the more the form is questioned. Minimalism is not doing more with less. Full stop. It is doing less. It is deconstruction far past what wrestling will reasonably allow. Empty Arena matches are fascinating to me in this light. How few there are, and how few actually worked. The Saito - Inoki Island Death Match anyone?

Is there footage of the Londos / Carnera draw from that card?

A fun match. Agree that Viann worked great underneath. Byers choke on Viann, while she picked her up into a body slam position, was really nice lil piece of business. Enjoyed the first struggle over Byers hammerlock, and it foreshadowed what was to come nicely. The utter disdain for the ref had me chuckling on the side too.

Nahhh, they'll run it like the Divas show they have on cable. They've had a modicum of success with that one. It'll be their NXT component, perhaps. Was the musical chair thing part of the Divas Search on RAW? Oh the laughter..

Stripping pro wrestling down to it's basic essentials? What are those? This isn't painting, or architecture. The form is broad based, purposefully. There is a sub version of self involved in minimalism that runs opposite of wrestling's core. Countless nameless expressionless armbars. I'm all for getting the avant into pro wrestling, but no one who's being discussed is a minimalist. If they're using less moves. Just say so. The word doesn't apply. It's pretty much what wrestling as we know it.. is not. Kikutaro is the only one I can think of who may have even broached the issue.

A minimalist wrestler is closest to a NJPW young lion. Absolute basics. Even then, it's a stretch. This aesthetic is being forced on them. And they are expected to grow out of it. Minimalism has little place in wrestling. Wrestling is a reactive art form, where the basics and fundamentals of in-ring action are malleable over time and promotion. How can you break something down to it's most bare elements, when those elements are in flux? Working a pro wrestling match with out a lot of variety of moves does not make someone a minimalist. Working like Lou Thesz did, doesn't make you a minimalist. Thesz wasn't a minimalist. The word is obfuscating. A dis service to smart workers and minimalist art thought, both.

Thank you Mad Dog. I'm pretty sure you went to one of the Ohio shows (Arnold Classic?) Are you referring to prices there or the San Jose WM show? I can still taste rubber sole over my previous comments about prices, so just want some clarity.

Reading the tea leaves of the card is always part of wrestling fandom tho. The longer you stay with a promotion, the easier it is to read. If anything, the last year or so of WWE cards hasn't been fairly predictable. I think they've been playing that up a bit at times for the audience. I think there's a philosophy that "un-predictably" was part of the package behind the late 90's boom. And occasionally they try to manufacture it. Just a thought, I have no concrete evidence. I feel like I've seen a bit of subtle stuff along those lines tho..

Ray did WM2, Aretha did WM3, Gladys did WM4, and Run-DMC did WM5. And not a single one of them was a hot act when they did it. Ray, Aretha, and Gladys being booked to sing "America The Beautiful" has a lot more to do with Marvin Gaye's stunning '83 performance of the national anthem.. Or so I've always thought.

Maybe Europe should man up and have better live wrestling? 😘 Waking up early for Liverpool hasn't been a problem for this American over 20 years running. But running a US show for a US audience, and not having it run in primetime EST is never a bright idea. Even outside of wrestling, this is almost never done in the US. The NFL is easily the most popular unifying thing in US culture these days, and they still won't step away from the broadcast philosophy. EST zone sets the pace for the US. To ignore it, is to ignore the majority of the market's desires.

Hogan isn't a minimalist. With those big expressions and hand motions? Is Andre limited or a minimalist at the end of his career? Minimalism isn't the word here. I understand that this is within the context of wrestling, but "limited" vs "minimalism" isn't a proper debate. One is mechanical, the other is stylistic. I suspect the debate is being framed this way for a particular answer. But maybe not! What prompted these thoughts? A particular wrestler or match? Not everyone listens to the audio shows..

I would've gone Magnolia. ha! Sorry, just sticking up for Bob Altman. Was watching 3 Women last night. In a way, they could use this ladder match to start off fueds and direction for their much maligned under card.

How many $100 seats were there? I was going off most of the seats were at $15. If they're moslty selling at indie market prices, that's pretty different.

I'm not sure minimalism really fits in pro wrestling. It's an over the top form. You don't hear about minimalist acting. Are you speaking about a levels of craft within pro wrestling ? Or is this a secret Big Daddy appreciation thread?

Verne didn't see what VKM saw in Hogan. That's the distinction. Hogan did money for Verne. And Verne did offer to put the belt on him. But Verne wasn't going to do with him what Vince did. And Hogan wasn't going to walk away from Japan for what Verne saw. You can throw Stan Hansen in that last category too. Wade comparing Hogan Verne to Vince Bryan got a chuckle out of me. It's like so many myths trying to swallow each other at once. I think for a lot of long time followers the Vince / Verne thing must be irresistible at this point tho..

What on earth does that mean EDIT: Nevermind, I get it now. And you know that's not possible anyways. Even at its absolute height the IC Title was never seen as anywhere close to the world belt. Ambrose should win the ladder royal since the actual story here is supposed to be him chasing after Barrett. Or at least it was, before they turned it into a Robert Altman movie. Do you think the booking for the IC has been worthy of life long praise? Or just hate Robert Altman? 😂

Not sure what they priced the Ohio NXT show at. I only saw secondary market prices. This is the second show out of FL. Nothing else is scheduled out of FL currently. No events for sale past the end of May. House show admission in FL will cost you $10 for GA or $20 for ringside. I think it's $10 GA $15 ringside for their TV at Full Sail, but I'm not certain. If they've charged more at the door for the NXT Specials, I wouldn't be surprised. But I'm not sure what you are referring to as NXT's major shows ? My point being tho, this is easy money. This isn't going on the road and turning a profit. If only because costs arn't being applied appropriately for this show. Also, it is smart. NXT has been positioned well and in plenty of win-win situations. It's brand strengthening not money making at this point. I'm most comfortable thinking of NXT as R&D than anything else. But really NXT's purpose at this point is hard to figure, I'm not sure WWE has a clear direction or idea. It's just a place for a lot of ideas about wrestling, but not connected to the monetary formula that's traditionally driven wrestling. Lucha Underground seems similar, but I'll admit plenty of ignorance on that subject. Only seen some TV and don't really know the nuts and bolts.

Wrestling (like most of America) has no idea how to monetize the internet. You'd think generations of using free content to drive dollars would give wrestling an edge. But nope. Wrestling has typically been at the fore front when it comes new media, so I'm actually hopeful someone will figure it out.

In Japan, at the time? Yes. There are a lot of cicumstances surrounding that match, but the one part Joe had control over.. he failed at. Unless the goal was to be not big in japan. Even outside of mechanics. Take away Misawa. Who was that in that match? I still find it jarring. There wasn't a lot of interest in him in Japan before that. Certainly not in NJPW, but maybe that was Z1 stuff.. ? It has been a while, and it's wrestling, so never say never. But doors can be closed by performances like that.

Joe had a chance. It was a title match with Misawa. The one thing he could do was put on a performance. He failed. NJPW wanting him for NOAH makes more sense. Thanks for the information.

I meant attendance numbers as they related to viewership numbers. ECW had it's own short lived house show circuit. I'm not sure if they used the same buildings as the WWE house show loop. The ECW TV was folded into SD before they stopped running the house shows, at least that's what I remember. But yes, I understand there's a difference in cost. If you've crunched numbers on a proposed touring cost, would you like to share what you've come up with? I don't know what they've trying to figure out. The indie market isn't rocket science. I don't know why WWE would want a piece of it. Or even if they do. (Do the wrestlers know?) I think they're just brand pumping. Be smart, position it well, and give it time and space, to see what is.. NXT. (Aaand I'll show myself the door for that one..)

Philly shows for those NXT dates would be piggy backing on the ROH crowds as well. They're trying to build.. something. NY, and by extension WWE, has always been about bringing in well rounded talent. Cycle em in, cycle em out. Maybe they wanna change that. Or it's the same thing, just as today's wrestling landscape dictates. But as far as who watches NXT and what they could draw, etc.. We kinda already know that. The indie scene is what it is in the US at this point. The question is, what the hell for? These kinds of numbers scared them off the ECW touring project after all.