Parties

You obv. have a very complete view of Jumbo - certainly more than what I've seen. But you need to watch past mid-'83 to have the full view of Fujinami. So much of his best work is in: the seven big 5-on-5 tags that happened between '84-'88, the UWF-NJ feud (to this day still the best feud in wrestling history for match quality), the '88 and '89 Vader matches, the '87 Kimura matches (though if you don't consider their 9/25/80 match to be four stars or higher, you may not agree), the '85 tag tournament teaming w/ Kimura. I genuinely like every performance he had on that set, so I'm a mark on the guy, but even something that did comparatively poor in the final voting - like the singles against Hogan in '85 - feels revelatory and fresh in today's climate. Fujinami has as much high-end variety as Lawler does. They both have the same "most disappointing match of the 80s": against each other in '89. Lawler could have his match with any big lug and did. I have such a soft spot for 80s New Japan bringing in the world's best to work their top stars that I even love the most questionable of the Sayama and/or Fujinami vs. Lucha and/or British Greats stuff. Jumbo-Mascaras '80 is much better than Sayama-Villano III, but I've been in a place for the last few years where I'd rather watch old NJ than AJ. The tide's turning a bit: the passing of Bockwinkel sort of thawed out my heart to that heavyweight style, and coming into the home stretch I do want to watch more of that Jumbo/Bock/Martel/Flair/Robinson "Tokyo by way of Minneapolis" approach. Also, I genuinely don't know who to vote for in this poll and agree that it's a major question. Flair is less deniable than I initially thought when you really add up his resume. Fujinami has higher peaks. Lawler has more week-to-week gems wherein some unheralded TV match proves surprisingly excellent. But I can't pretend that Flair doesn't have an amazing run. I'm as guilty as anyone of taking him for granted, or judging other guys by their finest hour rather than judging Flair by his consistency. And if I'm saying that Flair had a better 80s run than Lawler or Hansen, are their post-80s performances really enough to rank them above Flair (as I have on my own list)? Hansen's entirely dependent on All Japan '90-93, while Lawler's case is more dependent on long-term endurance. Overall this feels like a question I won't be able to answer for myself until I watch/rewatch the guys on my list to get their final rankings. I could see Jumbo going way up if we fall in love all over again. I've spent a lot of time (too much) in this nomination period figuring out who's gonna barely sneak onto my #85-100: it's time to start validating my #1-15. Two final things: Who the hell refers to "the 80s" as 81-90? Am I misunderstanding this? Shouldn't the 80s be 1/1/80 to 12/31/89? Flair's ranking as a career performer for me is greatly enhanced by his amazing late 70s stuff and his very underrated run in '90-'95. His singles with Arn, Regal, Vader, and Eddy are some of his most fun and fresh material.

By my count, the WM32 deadline is ten weeks from today. Royal Rumble Sunday felt like a good day for me to have a finalized 100 so that I could spend the rest of the time taking 1-2 people on my list daily and watch (or rewatch) as much of their stuff as possible to validate their current ranking. If I had to go with the 100 that I have now, I'd be happy with it and it'd be fine. I do have about 30 more unranked workers who I want to look into to see if they have a case, but time's winding down and at some point I'll have to concede that you can't see everything by everyone. Joshi and 90s Lucha are the two areas where I feel like I'm trying to cram a bunch of new unseen stuff in.

They're both top 35 - I've had Breaks higher but need to watch more Grey.

By ace I only mean "top star", but I suppose that was really Inoki during the 80s? With Fujinami as "Workhorse #2/#1A guy"? If people have character aspects that comprise an ace that they think Jumbo better embodied as "the man", that's fine. I just mean that I was more impressed with his showing on his 80s set than I am by the 80s Tsuruta I've seen. The biggest Jumbo fans are also factoring his mid-70s and early 90s stuff into the assessment. Late 70s/early 90s Fujinami is underrated: Fujinami 78-79 is better than Jumbo at the same time, but Jumbo '90-'91 is better than what I've seen of Fujinami at that time. TL;DR: Fujinami's currently my #3, Tsuruta's my #24.

Rewatched the Muta Scale and Akiyama matches for the first time in years. What an awesome bastard this guy was, and his subsequent life afterwards is unreal to consider. Can you imagine a politico-wrestling scenario wherein like, John Kerry was biting and stabbing a few pints of blood out of Bret Hart's forehead circa '92? The Muta match was a good reminder of how great Muta was during that 3-4 year peak from the NWA run onward. He's sort of the ultimate test of what I was saying in the Kengo Kimura thread about not holding late-career garbage against a guy with great highlights. 2000s Mutoh is one of the most boring, haphazard, worthless guys in the business, but if I'm thinking optimistically then I have to remember the good times. The Akiyama match is absolutely great and I barely remembered a moment of it. Hase's amateur-style footwork in this was fantastic. The chop exchanges in this felt very Flair-Steamboat, with Hase at times showing shades of both guys. And Cesaro via the Giant Swing. Really liked Akiyama trying to viciously dropkick Hase in the knee several times to set up the figure-four. If you need a favorable, positive instance of "workrate", look at what Hase is doing while stuck in Akiyama's leglock. Selling vigorously, trying to literally tear Akiyama's kneepad in half to release tension from the hold, screaming at the ref, rotating at all angles in search of an escape. Then once he does get out, he hits a Northern Lights suplex, but can't hold the bridge because his knee quits on him. Just an incredible performance.

Great longevity - I have him as more of a top 70 guy as I'm not as high on the early 90s WCW run as some, but he's had periods from 2008 on where he's been the best worker in WWE, which is really impressive given who that covers. Rhodes Brothers tag team is sorely needed right now.

Aoki now looking like Pequeno Rusev was weird. Don't buy him at all a shoot-style wannabe and found him much more fun when he was a Dynamite Kid wannabe ten years ago. That said, I'm a Fujiwara completest and this was good-hearted amusement. Aside from maybe wXw-era Johnny Saint, has there been a better 66-year old wrestler than Fujiwara? Some of the matwork stumbled, but a lot of it was solid and the headbutt exchange alone makes this worth watching.

I've seen little of his work after '90, but his stuff on the 80s set was phenomenal. I've said this in other threads of other workers, but I rarely fault someone for late-career slumps. Almost everyone drops off eventually, especially if their push is over. No one ever says, "Jordan would be the greatest of all time, but that run with the Wizards was unforgivable." Kimura was such a revelation on the DVDVR set that I have him above Choshu on my list. Which is probably crazy, but I thought he was a genuine phenom in his best matches with Fujinami, Fujiwara, Saito, and everyone in the multi-mans. I should seek out some more of his 90s work (I've seen him in at least one mid-90s WAR multi-man with Koshinaka's gang), but even if he comes off as a guy phoning it in or losing his way, I don't typically dock points or think that it negates past greatness.

Fujinami > Jumbo is pervasive thinking post-DVDVR New Japan/All Japan 80s sets. Side by side Fujinami emerged as the better ace with better matches and more variety. Flair rankings will be all over the map based on conversations here. I'll have Fujinami narrowly above Flair, but both are top 10 all-time and I expect Flair will rank considerably higher than Fujinami in the final totals. Flair will do well on everyone's list, unless you're really contrarian about his work (I think Grimmas is the prime example here if memory serves?). It strikes me as more interesting to debate Fujinami on his own merits rather than making everything a conversation about one's relation to Jumbo/Flair/old chestnuts, but c'est la vie. Fujinami's a guy I could see people underselling, or dismissing entirely if '78-'90 New Japan isn't their scene.

Atlantis vs. Blue Panther (8/9/91): This was great, but Panther is the story here. Great bridges and matwork in the first fall. I actually liked the brevity of the second fall here as it’s played in a way where Panther almost can’t believe he’s won and Pierroth is going crazy in the corner. Worked intelligently throughout as Panther is this thorn in Atlantis’ side hitting counters. Absolutely tremendous third fall with great trading of submissions and counters. Best match I’ve seen in a while. Atlantis vs. Blue Panther (12/5/97): This had less heat and felt more like a series of spots. Still really well executed, but almost more of a maestros match. Almost everything - even armbars and whatnot - felt like a potential finisher. On one hand that’s really impressive as it shows the intensity they were bringing. But it also made it seem less well-paced than the ’91 match in building to big moments. Good stuff, but this was starting to feel like Atlantis overload. Atlantis vs. La Fiera (4/3/92): Goddamn do I love Fiera’s gimmick here of Rapidly Aging Leopard-Scarved Fonzie accompanied by two busted airline stewardess valets. This was one of the more impressive Atlantis performances as he hits some really impressive dives off the top and seems to be guiding the match. Fiera initially looks like he’s suffering from Jerry Estrada Syndrome, but he soon gets some awesome air on his bumps to the floor and off a monkey flip. Some really good selling from Atlantis as a Fiera plancha looks to have dislocated his shoulder, which then gets worked over the rest of the match. Loved Pierroth pulling a limp Fiera (post back body drop) out of the ring to avoid a pin. Atlantis vs. Satanico (1984): Wow, this was great. Need to switch my focus to 80s Atlantis, as this was the agile young technico people talk about, and he was fantastic at taking a beating and springing off the ropes. Had genuine sympathy with me for the way he was getting clubbered. Satanico was a complete maniac in this era. Vicious bloody brawl that improves Atlantis’ stature from his early days, and certifies Satanico as a legit top 10 contender.

Atlantis-Perrito ’06 was good. Kind of a much better version of the two Taker-Michaels matches from Mania. Veteran doing way-back punches and then high-fiving the crowd felt different from recent lucha I’ve seen in a fun way. It’s also a drag watching this and knowing Perrito never worked WWE. Him against ’07 Cena could have been incredible. Atlantis’ shirt-ripping was a fun inversion of mask ripping, and I really liked the big tease-counter of Atlantida. Atlantis-Sombra was okay. First fall was too Americanized for my taste, but the times are a-changin’. Second fall is way too short, but that too is sort of common in present lucha: rush through two falls to get to the third. The post-match festivities were tremendous and I really thought Sombra brought it in the third fall in a go-for-broke Loser Leaves Town performance. Atlantis vs. Kung Fu (Mask vs. Mask, 10/26/90) was slow at times but had a lot of great frantic brawling. Worked the way you’d expect a mask match to be worked as a shoot, in that both guys seemed to drop all auspice of civility and start trying to gouge eyes and crack each others skulls against the ring posts. Atlantis goes for some dirtbag pins in this, and it ends rather abruptly, but good stuff all told. Trio Fantasticos have looked really good whenever I’ve seen them. Atlantis vs. Mano Negra (Mask vs. Mask, 10/1/93): This kinda sucked, actually. Negra was uncoordinated to the point of being almost uncooperative. He suffers from "Ox Baker stance". Atlantis hits awesome backbreakers that save this from being dull as dishwater. Negra improves as things progress, but the falls here are way too short and uneventful. Even the deceptive rudo kick in the balls is lackluster. Atlantis vs. Silver Fox (Mask vs. Mask, 6/18/00): Fun scuzzy Arena Coliseo brawl, and the best of these five matches that I watched. Crowd behind fence, the workers brawling into the crowd, Atlantis bleeding within the first couple minutes. I don’t know much about Silver Fox, but this felt like when one of the more dirtbag undercarders in NOAH would get to work a title or anniversary match with Misawa. Or Bret vs. Jean-Pierre Lafitte. The Ace vs. guy who’s beneath him but has been built up as a one-night tomato can contender. Fox takes a brilliant back body drop bump to the floor here. There’s also an awesome riotous brawl that breaks out through the stands between both guys’ groups of cornermen. The atmosphere is what makes this match. Silver Fox alternates between seeming gassed and then suddenly hitting these beautiful pins. Third fall’s kind of a spot-fest and this ends abruptly in much the same way other Atlantis matches seem to, but this was good stuff.

Does anyone have a 5-10 match list of the must-see Atlantis performances? His career is so massive at this point that I often feel like I don't know what to focus on with him. I've seen the mask matches with V3 (classic) and UG (less great but still excellent), but the rest of what i know about him was from when I was watching week-to-week CMLL back in '08-'10. He's a weird blind spot in my viewing, in that when I watch present day performances from him I always think that he's solid, but that I'm clearly watching a guy at the end of his career and that I'm not getting the full picture. If you were making an Atlantis comp, what's on it?

1) Comparatively speaking, lucha's been widely ignored by the IWC, which is odd given that at its best it is the peak of wrestling-as-art. Meltzer watches it sporadically and never talks about it nowadays, unless it's to discuss Triplemania's audio issues or Ricochet donning a mask. Getting the other prominent sites and hosts to discuss it is a joke. Maybe the Young Bucks can go to AAA and it'll all suddenly be relevant again. Dave's followers would care about lucha if he cared about lucha, but Dave seems to (or at least I'll say nowadays to play it safe) follow/prefer companies he views as financially thriving. If business is bad somewhere, or he views it as "in a slump" as he has with CMLL since Mistico first left, he doesn't talk about it on audio. And to be fair, he has given Lucha Underground its due early and often. 2) People are sometimes lacking in their analysis of lucha because they either genuinely don't understand its nuances/structure/traditions/culture, or they think they don't. For whatever weird sub-cultural reasons, internet fans and tape traders have always been more entrenched in Japan's wrestling culture than they are in Mexico's. My guess is that in the 80s it was a footage issue, but I could be really BS-ing you there. I've sort of speculated that lucha would be as big as Japanese wrestling online if we had more/higher quality tape of the 80s/early 90s. There are probably some subliminal class/race issues at play as well, but that's too big a rabbit hole to go down at this moment. As of now, you only have a select few people writing in English about lucha in a week-to-week/historically rich way that can thread the needle in explaining characters/storylines/why matches happened the way that they did. (I certainly don't purport to be one of them, and feel quite ignorant about lucha past and present - even the stuff I love.) My own top 100 contenders, as of now: Yes (19): Black Terry, Blue Panther, Cassandro, El Dandy, Espanto Jr., La Fiera, Fuerza Guerrera, Hijo del Santo, LA Park, Mascarita Sagrada, Mocho Cota, Negro Casas, Negro Navarro, Pirata Morgan, Sangre Chicana, Satanico, Solar I, Villano III, Virus. Probably: Super Astro. Maybe: Dr. Cerebro, Chavo Sr., Mascarita Dorada, Perro Aguayo, Psicosis. Probably not, but such a sentimental favorite of mine that he gets his own category: Trauma II. TBD (need to watch more): Atlantis, Bestia Salvaje, all three Brazos, Espectrito, Hombre Bala, Javier Llanes, MS-1, Olimpico, Pierroth Jr., Ringo Mendoza. No (nominees with their own threads who won't make my list): Angel Azteca, Art Barr, Barbaro Cavernario, El Bracero, Chavo Jr., Ciclon Ramirez, Cien Caras, Demus 3:16, Dos Caras, Dr. Wagner, Jr., El Faroan, Felino, Hector Garza, Hector Guerrero, Lizmark, Javier Cruz, Jerry Estrada, Juventud, El Mesias, Octagon, Perro Jr., Pimpinella Escarlata, Rayo Jr., Rey Hechicero, Ricky Santana, Silver King, Super Crazy.

The Burke-Invader boxing match with Macho Camacho alone is enough to get Burke on lists. Great approach to bumping and striking. Mostly a comedy guy, but one who knew enough heel tricks to be dastardly and the sort you'd want to see get their comeuppance. Kind of a lot like Murdoch in his approach, actually. Maybe some traces of Arn Anderson in there too. Yet in total he moves in the ring unlike anyone I've ever seen, let alone any bald paunchy guy. A textbook example of it is the Savio title change in '90. He's a stooge, but kind of a real bastard of a stooge.

Anything with Black Terry, or the team of Los Terrible Cerebros (Terry/Dr. Cerebro/Cerebro Negro). Anything with Navarro working with his sons Trauma I and Trauma II, commonly called Dinestia Navarro. Lots should still be available via Segunda Caida. There's 7-10 mins of an awesome '08 Terry-Navarro singles for some NWA title out there. Solar/Mano Negra vs Negro Navarro/Black Terry (2007) Solar/Dos Caras Jr./Heavy Metal v. Villano IV/Villano V/Negro Navarro (2006) Misioneros vs. Space Cadets (2005) I like Navarro-Tiger Mask (Sayama) from that New Japan period where they just brought in all the best juniors in the world to face TM. Navarro/Panther vs. Satanico/Solar (Lucha Festival, 2011) The bloody Villanos-Misioneros trios from the decadas80s90s2000 YT page Navarro vs. Mando Guerrero from the 80s is fun weirdness vs. Virus (2014) vs. Solar (AULL, 2015 - there were two of these last year, but they've had several over the years that are available online)

The 7/26/08 trios would be up there with Atlantis-V3 and the best of Hashimoto, Samoa Joe, and Regal/Benoit/Finlay as the best stuff of the 2000s. I've called elsewhere the best match to occur since 2005 when I started reading the Wrestling Internet, and that might still be true. But that trios was truly exceptional as the height of shoot style in a "low dishonest decade" that could have used more of it. The '05 Ishikawa-Ikeda match is good too. I was kind of surprised to hear Bix say that he didn't like their matches and that Otsuka (who will make my list) and Minoru Fujita (who won't) were the darlings of the fed in its first '96-'01 run. Graham's writeup of Ishikawa's career is quite good, and I've always enjoyed the legend of him moving to Canada to work for Santino, which sounds like something out of the last season of Breaking Bad.

Nitro also did a lot from a presentation standpoint to mix it up and come off like a live, semi-spontaneous sporting event. People don't object to watching a three hour baseball/basketball/football/hockey game. Aside from having true variety in their roster and matches, (at it's best) Nitro's mix of different announce teams, live promos, backstage segments, remotes, recaps, and previews for future shows did a lot to pass the time and make tuning in the following week seem appealing. RAW is incredibly repetitive in its format and has been for about a decade. It's a show that at once feels too rigid and yet somehow also too arbitrary: it never strays from a certain lazy status quo.

It would be worth it just for a Lemmy imitator en espanol. "Tiempo para jugar el juego..."

I like him and he has several good matches (the MNM series with Rey being outright great). If this was Top 100 Most Charismatic 21st Century Workers, he'd be there. But I don't see how he's close to Top 100 all-time.

Announced Rumble entrants (13): The Big Show, Braun Strowman, Bray Wyatt, Brock Lesnar, Curtis Axel, Chris Jericho, Dolph Ziggler, Erick Rowan, Luke Harper, Roman Reigns, Ryback, Sheamus, Stardust. Presumed Rumble entrants (12): Alberto del Rio, Dean Ambrose, The Dudleys (I’d pick them to win the pre-show even though they’re the worst choice), HHH, Kalisto, Kevin Owens, The New Day, The Usos. So who are the 5 surprises? Feels like they might throw the last 3 remaining Social Outcasts in there (Slater, Dallas, Rose) just so they can embarrass them some more. But then you’ve got room for That Guy Who Everyone Expects to Debut and one more. I’d guess one Friend of Hunter, or one NXT guy? Maybe like Road Dawg, or Corbin if they wanna premiere him as a monster who gets to eliminate a couple guys? Or they pull the trigger on Joe, even if it’s one night only? This match/show needs such a shot in the arm that I’d just use the Outcasts as Axel’s lackeys on the outside and find three interesting outsiders/nostalgia acts. The days of bringing in the modern-day equiv. of Mascaras or Tenryu for one show are long over, but just for people you have standing around backstage, you could get some good crowd pops for some mix of Apollo Crews, Sami Zayn, Zack Ryder, Albert, Finlay, Lita, IRS, or X-Pac. Weird to think that anyone pre-Attitude Era (like Rotundo) would be met w/ confused apathy by most kids in their teens or younger.

He had taped singles matches in the 2005 G1 against Nishimura, Kawada, and Minoru Suzuki, but I've seen none of them. Him and Nishimura had a match in '07 NOAH against Misawa/Shiozaki that I've watched but remember finding somewhat disappointing for the people involved. Misawa was not really up for treating it as an interpromotional war.

The roster is genuinely the best that it's been since about '97. The writing/booking (outside NXT) is as bad as it's ever been. 2007 had some lame workers on top and RAW often sucked, but it was generally more exciting and felt higher stakes than what they do now. 2008 was regressive, but often redeemed by guys like Rey, Bourne, Hardy, Henry, Mayweather, Punk, Finlay, etc. 2009 was bad, as HHH burying Legacy was the year's big storyline and there were no great feuds aside from Rey trying to save every show and Christian-Swagger on ECW. Rey-Jericho was actually excellent. And Jeff Hardy-Punk if that was your thing. 2010-2012 was actually more boring from a booking perspective. But today's TV is more frustrating because it feels like a much more pivotal moment in company history, and that they're shooting themselves in the foot during a real make-or-break moment of figuring out whether the first NXT generation will succeed or fail.

Aside from occasionally being preempted for Yankees games, yes: it was always on.

I'm still not voting for him and I'd argue that it's more like the third or fourth best Mania match, but it is nearly perfect and Big Show deserves the credit for it.

I said this in a different Tenta thread recently (something in the Microscope), but the idea that Earthquake is working hard in that Summerslam match with Hogan - while Hogan is working some easy-does-it coasting on his gimmick? - is just wrong. I re-watched that match a month ago because I wanted to see what everyone was talking about in praising Tenta. Because I too wanted to like him. But here's the thing. Everyone else in that match - from Hogan to cornerman Big Boss Man to Jimmy Hart to 1990 musclebound Dino Bravo - everyone in that match is working like crazy to make Earthquake look good. And to me he still looks like a sad, ineffective oaf who's not nearly as threatening as some make him out to be. His execution of basic moves is mediocre and at times outright weak, especially for a supposed giant. Yes, he was a big guy working a big man gimmick. But he's a big guy in the same way that Comic Book Guy is working a big man gimmick. Tenta is genuinely bad in that match, and I don't know if I can ever recall seeing Hogan work so hard to get somebody over. I say that as someone who currently loathes Hogan. It's genuinely one of his most selfless performances, as every performer in the match is sweating buckets to whip that crowd into a frenzy. They succeed: the crowd loved it. (But to be honest, I couldn't tell you from memory if the reaction is better/worse/same than most WWF PPV main events of that time, as I haven't seen many others of late: my guess is it was pretty par for the course. The '88-'89 Mega-Powers stuff I've seen recently seemed more over?) This is where we get into the territory of people seeing what they want to see. Having totally different reactions to the same actions, the same footage. Earlier Matt writes: I've watched dozens of Tenta matches, including several recently. I've never seen anything that approximates what's described above. At some point I'm happy to say "Different strokes, dude." More power to you. It's not as if anyone's wrong to see those things in Tenta. If you do, great. You sincerely win, because you get to enjoy it more than I do. But boy oh boy do I not see those things in Tenta. And that's where a lot of these "anti-workrate" appraisals to me after a while start to sound like vague, rhetorical musings about the nature of wrestling and "complexities" that go untested and unexplained. Which to me isn't as compelling - let alone as inviting of conversation - as watching a match together and commenting on what's physically happening. Not some jazz philosophies about "the notes he's not playing, man", but to instead judge the wrestlers on their wrestling. But I'm sure that to some, that approach sounds all too "workrate".