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What's your number one apuestas? Santo/Casas was wrestled so differently from a big blowoff apuestas match that I could never get into it, but almost everyone else loves that match. I'm almost objectively wrong on that one. Santo/Dandy/Casas was on the list at one point but got bumped off. I'm not the biggest fan of legwork in a bloody brawl, but more than anything it's that if one of the wrestlers ends up grousing after the match about the fans not reacting properly then it's probably not an alltime classic. But I like the match a lot. I can't believe all this time there was someone else out there who loved that match. That makes me so happy. To me it's not just a brilliant match but proof that Emilio Charles had it in him to be a Casas or Satanico type of performer. I guess that just wasn't how he liked to do business. Here's Hechicero vs Caifan. I don't know Hechicero's era as well as I know the '90s and haven't really started looking at all of his praised matches yet. So far it's just a couple of Caifan matches, the Charles Lucero matches and a Dr. Cerebro match. That Dandy/Santo match is astonishing for how hard they work in a match contested outside of their home promotions and that they knew going in would have a bunch of ref bullshit and a run in finish. Of course given what Dandy was doing in WCW I'm sure he was excited just to cut loose again.

8. Ciclon Ramirez vs Javier Cruz (June 10 1994, hair vs hair) PWO thread Two guys on the downside of their careers hurl themselves at each other for not much more than pride. Ciclon's dives in this match combine high flying and violent intent better than any aerial performance I've ever seen. The only thing keeping this out of GOAT discussion for me is that the second fall lasts less than a minute. I have this ranked eighth on this list, though, so maybe it is as a GOAT contender after all. 9. Felino vs Mascara Magica (May 21 1996, CMLL welterweight title) PWO thread A good companion match to the much more famous Dandy vs Casas. Two very long title matches that stay on the mat for a while, with first falls that work as their own little matches, before building to a tecnico comeback and big throws in the final fall. Hard to separate. Dandy-Casas isn't as counter crazy down the stretch, but I just like the story of this one a bit more, with Mascara Magica having to overcome every different strategy and tactic that the veteran Felino throws at him in his welcome to the big time. I also prefer Felino's more desperate foul to Casas's. It would be one of the great starmaking performances of all time if Mascara Magica had become a star. 10. Gran Cochisse vs Satanico (September 14 1984, NWA middleweight title) PWO, Cagematch An interesting comparison to the two matches surrounding it. It's another long title match with a lot of submission work, but instead of building to big suplexes in the third they built to even more submissions. The matwork in the third fall was even better than in the first. There was always a threat that Satanico would pull some devious trick, and I'm not sure if I was supposed to interpret some of those third fall spots as fouls, but the postmatch made it look like pure sporting effort from him. 11. Dandy vs Negro Casas (July 3 1992, CMLL middleweight title) PWO, Cagematch This feels like a very 1990s match, with big bombs and shocking kickouts, but it's Dandy and Casas. They managed to keep this rooted in the classic title match style, as they still had to use their ground game to break through each other's defenses before they could get to the big moves. The first fall is maybe the hardest fought opening fall I've seen. 12. Virus vs Guerrero Maya Jr. (October 6 2013, CMLL super lightweight title) Cagematch page (it has a PWO thread but there are no reviews) Virus's title matches from this era were generally worked like 1990s title matches, but with highspots that could thrill 2010s fans. Most people seem to prefer when he fought Guerrero Maya in 2011, but I thought this was the closest any of his challengers came to looking like his equal as a technician. It took more than one fall for them to force each other off the mat, and the finish here was much more fitting for Virus than the one from 2011. 13. Cien Caras, Mascara Año 2000 and Sangre Chicana vs Konnan, Perro Aguayo and Rayo de Jalisco Jr. (March 6 1992) PWO thread One of the great things about these wild brawls is that the fans can actually become part of the match, like here when Chicana tries to drag one back into the match with him. The ring isn't quite as much of an inaccessible alternate universe when that happens. There were a lot of excellent performances, but Chicana was the standout. I still have no idea if that slip off the apron was legitimate. 14. Hijo del Santo vs Blue Panther (April 9 2000, WWA welterweight title) PWO, Cagematch The first two falls felt very complete for as short as they were. Panther actually used his technical ability to seem threatening in this match. I can't understand why he didn't wrestle like that more often. The video appears to come from someone filming their TV. I could see that being a turnoff but for me that just makes this stuff feel like unearthed treasure.

1. Angel Azteca vs El Dandy (June 1 1990, NWA middleweight title) PWO thread, Cagematch page I can't imagine anything knocking this out of the top spot. I was in my early twenties when I first saw it and I'm in my mid-thirties now. Things just don't move you the same at this age. Even if I did see something as good as this, that new match would have to overcome over ten years of goodwill that this one has built up as my personal number one. It seems like it had its time, back when Loss was calling it possibly the best match he'd ever seen, so maybe I'm dating myself a bit by ranking it at the top. This much matwork, and this much lucha matwork especially, might be too much for some to bear. For me, this was completely unlike anything I'd ever seen, even within the subgenre of Mexican title matches, and I can't think of another match that's really similar to it. 2. Espanto Jr. vs Hijo del Santo (April 10 1988, UWA lightweight title) PWO, Cagematch When I was a kid, probably back in middle school, my friend used to drag me to the neighborhood basketball court on the weekends. Sometimes there would be like eight or ten Asian guys, grown men, playing fullcourt pickup, but there were no other adult height rims around so we had to sort of sneak on while they were at the other end, jack up some quick shots and scurry off once the action came back down to our side. They seemed understanding when we (read: I) would miss and fail to retrieve the ball in time, leaving it bouncing in the middle of their game, but they weren't speaking English so they may have been cursing me. Anyway, if pressed, I'd say that I prefer this Santo-Espanto match to the very similar 1992 one because the handshake at the start of the third fall in '92 took some of the edge off Espanto's attack to begin the fall, and the finish in this one is much more of a dagger. But deep down it probably has just as much to do with those little kids trying to be part of something bigger than them and then scrambling back to their seats before it actually happened. 3. MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana (September 23 1983, hair vs hair) PWO, Cagematch One of the few Mexican matches well known enough that there's nothing really to say about it. Chicana's selling is transfixing, something out of a war movie. 4. Brazo de Oro vs Hijo del Santo (January 13 1991, hair vs mask) PWO, Cagematch The preeminent Santo apuestas match in my mind. Maybe it's because the first one I saw. Maybe it's because it's the one that most closely adhered to the formula (hey, it's a good formula). They gave up wrestling for fisticuffs after just a minute or so, which I appreciated. Brazo de Plata running around ringside shrieking hysterically as his brother got busted up by Santo added a lot. 5. Fiera vs Negro Casas (October 1, 1993, hair vs hair) PWO, Cagematch Casas tries to play rough with Fiera and soon finds himself needing to dig deep for a comeback against someone even more well versed in the rudo arts. I remember buying this from a guy in Mexico and then walking to the post office on a beautiful spring day, passing kids chattering on a school playground and people in their stores, their lives in perfect order as I took two or three hours to complete a trip that would have been ten minutes there and ten minutes back if I'd had a car. When I got home I watched old wrestling videos until I passed out at like 5:30 in the afternoon. 6. Atlantis, Dandy and Mascara Sagrada vs MS-1, Emilio Charles Jr. and Tierra Viento y Fuego (November 24 1989) Doesn't have a Cagematch page, and the only post in its PWO thread is by me. You can just read this instead. This match has four really good workers in it, and it's a bloody match from a CMLL hot period. That means that it probably hasn't been overlooked as much as it's been outright rejected as anything special. It's not full of synchronized teamwork or breathtaking offense, and it's not even a wild brawl around the arena, which I assume people hope for from 3v3 classics. For me, I've never seen a match that does as much with the simple concept of pride. Dandy humiliates Charles and runs him right out of Arena Mexico. Charles comes back and you know that he's gotta be thinking vengeance. The announcer chuckles when the crowd laughs at Charles, and when Dandy's blood turns them quiet he somberly admits that Dandy did go looking for this. Soon enough Charles himself has to reckon with the fact that he started a war with Dandy. Eventually Charles finds himself alone with Dandy, the same situation that worked out so poorly for him earlier, and has to answer some questions that he couldn't in the first fall. I can't think of a lot of matches, even 1v1s, with such a well crafted story for one of its wrestlers. 7. Lola Gonzalez vs Pantera Sureña (December 9 1988, hair vs hair) No pages Gonzalez and Pantera tore into each other just like you'd expect from a classic hair match, but with women's wrestling still trying to find its footing in the capital city they worked a third fall where they also showed off what talented wrestlers they were. They put in so much effort that eventually Septien on commentary was calling for both heads of hair to be spared, which you know isn't going to happen. If there's another women's match from Mexico that's anywhere near this, I don't know of it, but I don't think I saw this until like 2017, so it's more than possible that I've overlooked something.

I don't know where to put a thread like this or if the board even does this sort of post anymore. This is something I started last year when I was trying to make top tens for the 1990s, and that ended up evolving into this list. It's pretty biased towards 1990s matches and CMLL matches, but, well, that's all I got. If, for whatever reason, anyone tried to use this as a stepping stone to getting into lucha, most of the top fifty have been vetted by other people, whereas the second fifty are more personal picks plus some stragglers. So maybe take the first fifty more seriously. I'll try to provide links and say something brief about each one over the next few weeks. 1. Angel Azteca vs Dandy (June 1 1990) 2. Espanto Jr. vs Hijo del Santo (April 10 1988) 3. MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana (September 23 1983) 4. Brazo de Oro vs Hijo del Santo (January 13 1991) 5. Fiera vs Negro Casas (September 1 1993) 6. Atlantis, Dandy and Mascara Sagrada vs MS-1, Emilio Charles Jr. and Tierra Viento y Fuego (November 24 1989) 7. Lola Gonzalez vs Pantera Sureña (December 9 1988) 8. Ciclon Ramirez vs Javier Cruz (June 10 1994) 9. Felino vs Mascara Magica (May 21 1996) 10. Gran Cochisse vs Satanico (September 14 1984) 11. Dandy vs Negro Casas (July 3 1992) 12. Virus vs Guerrero Maya Jr. (October 6 2013) 13. Cien Caras, Mascara Año 2000 and Sangre Chicana vs Konnan, Perro Aguayo and Rayo de Jalisco Jr. (March 6 1992) 14. Hijo del Santo vs Blue Panther (April 9 2000) 15. Atlantis vs Villano III (March 17 2000) 16. Dandy, Hector Garza and Negro Casas vs Bestia Salvaje, Hijo del Santo and Scorpio Jr. (November 29 1996) 17. Lizmark vs Jerry Estrada (June 18 1993) 18. Brazo, Brazo de Oro and Brazo de Plata vs Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan and Verdugo (November 3 1989) 19. Escudero Rojo and Reyes Veloz vs Gran Apache and Mestizo (August 31 1993) 20. Dr. Cerebro vs Virus (August 16 2015) 21. Damiancito el Guerrero vs Cicloncito Ramirez (January 7 1997) 22. Atlantis vs Satanico (January 20 1984) 23. Atlantis, Dandy and Pierroth Jr. vs Fiera, Emilio Charles Jr. and Satanico (November 13 1992) 24. Atlantis vs Faraon (March 22 1985) 25. Americo Rocca vs Mocho Cota (January 27 1984) 26. Fuerza Guerrera vs Pantera (May 11 1990) 27. Damiancito el Guerrero and Pierrothito vs Cicloncito Ramirez and Ultimo Dragoncito (March 14 1997) 28. Negro Casas vs Ultimo Dragon (March 26 1993) 29. Espanto Jr. vs Hijo del Santo (August 31 1986) 30. Virus vs Fuego (June 15 2014) 31. Mocho Cota vs Americo Rocca (February 3 1984) 32. Hijo del Santo vs Parka (December 23 2001) 33. Mogur vs Pierroth Jr. (January 12 1990) 34. Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (February 1 1991) 35. Angel Azteca, Atlantis and Ringo Mendoza vs Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan and Verdugo (1988) 36. LA Park vs Rush (March 11 2017) 37. Blue Panther vs Negro Casas (March 2 2012) 38. Perro Aguayo vs Sangre Chicana (February 28 1986) 39. Art Barr and Eddy Guerrero vs Hijo del Santo and Octagon (November 6 1994) 40. Cibernetico (March 22 1996) 41. Fiera vs Jerry Estrada (1991) 42. Fuerza Guerrera, Jerry Estrada, Espanto Jr. and Psicosis vs Hijo del Santo, Octagon, Parka, and Rey Misterio Jr. (July 8 1995) 43. Guerrero Maya Jr. vs Virus (June 7 2011) 44. Dandy vs Emilio Charles Jr. (July 28 1989) 45. Hijo del Santo vs Espanto Jr. (May 14 1992) 46. Dandy vs Pirata Morgan (September 23 1988) 47. Atlantis, Perro Aguayo and Villano III vs Mascara Año 2000, Pierroth Jr. and Shocker (April 28 2000) 48. Dandy and Satanico vs Masakre and MS-1 (August 11 1989) 49. Dandy, Mogur and Popitekus vs MS-1, Pierroth Jr. and Ulises (January 5 1990) 50. Hijo del Santo vs Dr. Cerebro (December 21 2000) 51. Cibernetico (April 18 1997) 52. Atlantis, Faraon and Super Astro vs Blue Panther, Emilio Charles Jr. and Fuerza Guerrera (August 18 1989) 53. Halcon Negro, Virus and Zumbido vs Olimpico, Oriental and Super Kendo (June 23 1998) 54. Atlantis, Dandy and Sangre Chicana vs Satanico, Ulises and Universo 2000 (December 7 1990) 55. Atlantis vs Dr. Wagner Jr. (January 19 2001) 56. Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (May 17 1991) 57. Dr. Cerebro vs Erik Ortiz (August 11 2019) 58. Dandy vs Javier Llanes (February 22 1994) 59. Comando Negro vs Pollo (December 26 2010) 60. Bestia, Felino and Negro Casas vs Ciclon Ramirez, Oro and Ultimo Dragon (March 12 1993) 61. Psicosis vs Rey Misterio Jr. (September 22 1995) 62. Dandy vs Black Warrior (October 15 1996) 63. Rambo vs Villano III (September 24 1993) 64. Atlantis vs Emilio Charles Jr. (August 14 1992) 65. Baby Face, Cien Caras and Pirata Morgan vs Fiera, Lizmark and Rayo de Jalisco Jr. (August 1 1986) 66. Bestia Salvaje, Black Warrior and Satanico vs Bronco, Lizmark and Shocker (July 12 1996) 67. Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (July 17 1987) 68. Black Terry, Cerebro Negro and Dr. Cerebro vs Bombero Infernal, Maldito Jr. and Samot (October 14 2010) 69. Masakre vs Pirata Morgan (February 28 1992) 70. Blue Panther, Fuerza Guerrera and Psicosis vs Hijo del Santo, Octagon and Rey Misterio Jr. (March 17 1995) 71. Mascarita Magica vs Damiancito el Guerrero (February 27 1996) 72. Arkangel, Mogur and Scorpio Jr. vs Mascara Magica, Olimpico and Super Astro (October 4 1996) 73. Black Terry vs Wotan (August 21 2016) 74. Bestia Salvaje, Fiera and Negro Casas vs Dandy, Ringo Mendoza and Ultimo Dragon (July 10 1992) 75. MS-1, Espectro Jr. and Satanico vs Fiera, Mocho Cota and Sangre Chicana (September 30 1983) 76. Americo Rocca vs Kid Guzman (April 27 1999) 77. Eddy Guerrero, Psicosis and Santo Negro vs Hijo del Santo, Octagon and Parka (February 19 1995) 78. Bestia Salvaje, Fiera and Jerry Estrada vs Hijo del Solitario, Blue Demon Jr. and Huracan Sevilla (January 24 1992) 79. Dr. Cerebro vs Multifacetico (June 2 2011) 80. Hijo de Lizmark, Dr. Wagner Jr. and Dos Caras Jr. vs Johnny Stamboli, LA Park, and Marco Corleone (May 19 2006) 81. Comando Ruso, Corsario and Negro Casas vs Gran Hamada, Panterita del Ring and Super Astro (1991) 82. Danny Boy, Lasser and Robin Hood vs Leono, Panthro and Tigro (August 17 1990) 83. Fiera, Emilio Charles Jr. and Fuerza Guerrera vs Hijo del Santo, Mascara Sagrada and Misterioso (November 29 1991) 84. Felino, Shocker and Tony Rivera vs Hijo del Santo, Karloff Lagarde Jr. and Violencia (June 19 1998) 85. Felino vs Hijo del Santo (1998) 86. Cien Caras vs Rayo de Jalisco Jr. (September 21 1990) 87. Americo Rocca, Angel Azteca and Javier Cruz vs Dandy, Chavo Guerrero Jr. and Texano (March 16 1990) 88. Atlantis, Emilio Charles Jr. and Felino vs Black Warrior, Blue Panther and Dr. Wagner Jr. (January 1999) 89. Caifan vs Hechicero (January 31 2009) 90. Bestia Salvaje and Scorpio Jr. vs Hijo del Santo and Negro Casas (March 19 1999) 91. Fuerza Guerrera vs Misterioso (December 6 1991) 92. Atlantis vs Blue Panther (December 5 1997) 93. Ciclon Mackey, Especto de Ultratumba and Fiera vs Ciclon Ramirez, Huracan Sevilla and Jinete (1992) 94. Jerry Estrada, Espanto Jr. and Parka vs Lizmark, Rey Misterio and Rey Misterio Jr. (January 27 1994) 95. Bracito de Oro, Cicloncito Ramirez and Mascarita Magica vs Damiancito el Guerrero, Fierito and Pierrothito (October 3 1997) 96. Power Raiders Azul, Blanco, Negro, Rojo and Verde vs Duende, Halloween, Hijo del Espectro, Karis la Momia and Manicomio (June 30 1995) 97. Gran Hamada, Silver King and Texano vs Negro Casas, Dr. Wagner Jr. and Rambo (February 23 1992) 98. Atlantis, Blue Demon Jr. and Huracan Ramirez II vs Pirata Morgan, Emilio Charles Jr. and Pierroth Jr. (March 17 1989) 99. Cibernetico (December 30 1997) 100. Hijo del Gladiador, Jaque Mate and Tierra Viento y Fuego vs Supremo, Pierroth Jr. and Ulises (April 21 1989) - The only hard and solid rule was that it had to take place in Mexico or be promoted by a Mexican organization. I think there are two matches on the list that happened in the US. - The most represented year is 1992, with ten matches. - Six wrestlers made it onto the list ten times each. Hijo del Santo (twenty), Atlantis (sixteen), Dandy (sixteen), Negro Casas (fourteen), Fiera (ten) and Virus (ten). It doesn't reflect well on me that one guy ended up in twenty percent of the entries. That's hard to take as realistic. - As best as I can tell, the most matches on the list by a wrestler in one year is four, by 1990 Dandy, 1992 Fiera, 1995 Psicosis and 1997 Virus. 1992 Fiera is a big fluke (well...) but the others check out I think. - I counted fifty-six 1v1s and three ciberneticos (I don't know how to categorize them), and then the rest are team matches. That's pretty close to my ideal ratio actually. - Twenty-nine title matches and nineteen apuestas matches? I already forgot what the totals were.

When I think of Eric Bischoff's style of leadership, I think of stuff like taking someone off TV for half a year because they noshowed a TV taping. Firing a worker to stick it to that guy's friends. Keeping someone off PPV for months at a time because they were agitating for a higher spot. Breaking up a tag team to make them less over, for the purpose of diluting their power backstage. Those morale sapping locker room speeches when he would tell the wrestlers that none of them had ever drawn money (Hogan/Savage/Piper excluded), or that whoever wanted to quit was free to do so. Throwing or spilling coffee on a guy, whatever the story was there. Keeping the wrestlers in the dark on storylines as his way of working the boys. Telling someone that if they didn't re-sign right there on the spot that they were losing their title that night. Most of the stories about Bischoff paint him as an imperious leader who had no desire to treat be seen as his employees' equal. He was tight with Hogan, DDP and Ernest Miller, probably some other guys, but I don't know how many ex-WCW workers would cross the street for him today.

El Signo passed away yesterday. He's most famous as a member of the Misioneros de la Muerte, the superstar team that more or less made 3v3 the standard format for multiman matches in Mexico. During the prime of the original group (Signo, Negro Navarro, Texano), he was probably the biggest star of the three, but he's also the least remembered among English speaking wrestling fans today. Texano split off from the group early and had CMLL runs and a memorable team with Silver King, and Navarro had his renaissance as an indy legend, but Signo's career didn't have that kind of second act. Almost none of his prime exists on video (if any does at all), so the clearest representation of his wrestling style comes from the 1992 UWA TV program. He was in the latter half of his thirties by then but he looked like he still ranked with the best guys in the country. Of the founding Misioneros, now only Navarro remains. RIP.

For me it was the tope that made me think that Charles was losing the plot. Even though it landed, commentator Andres Maroñas seized on it as an error, just because it deviated so wildly from the match that the challenger had made to that point. He seemed to think that Charles started to get desperate once Atlantis escaped that long armbar, which I liked as an explanation. Atlantis had defended the belt some thirty times by this point, several against Charles, and eventually it has to take its toll when you can't put the champion away. You start to doubt yourself and your gameplan, and you start to push things more than you need to. For all I know Charles just wanted to transition the match to the finishing stretch, but the way he started taking gambles when he had things under control gave his character the air of a man unsure if he was good enough. I've said that I don't think that Mexican wrestling does the Ric Flair just barely escape with the belt finish well, but after Charles's armbar the only offense Atlantis got was a shoulder to the gut and the winning rollup, and it worked, even as the babyface. Charles had sold how exhausting it was just applying that much pressure, so the fall was more than believable, and Atlantis came off as a true champion. He took everything his challenger threw at him, and he was the one who capitalized when he got an opening. After the match Maroñas said that it had been some time since Atlantis had given such a good match, which I thought was an interesting comment.

Guessing that the Duggan reference is to this.

Sounds like the finish of their match at King of the Ring 1997.

For a long time Mascara Sagrada's reputation was that he was about as bad as it got save for stiffs who were barely trained. In 1989 he was spectacularly awkward and seemed to have no grasp whatsoever of what his limits were. I've complained about Octagon paring his repertoire down to the same stuff every time, but Mascara Sagrada was a guy who probably did need to sit down and figure out what he could do and what was beyond him, and by 1991 he seemed to better understand who he was. In general I think he ended up showing a lot more creativity and effort than Octagon overall. Take a look at his title match with Pirata Morgan, where he hits moves like a perfect moonsault and a soaring plancha. Maybe that was Pirata laying out the match to make sure MS looked good, but I couldn't imagine Octagon trying stuff like that or even attempting to work the mat as long as they did. That clipped mask match with Black Cat got 4.75 stars in the Observer. Anyway, Mascara Sagrada isn't one of the first guys I'd think when naming good tecnico workers but he has a surprising amount of quality matches, especially for someone long considered an outright bad wrestler. For example: Hecatombe and Bestia Salvaje vs Mantuz and Mogur (rare chance to see him working rudo and in his old character) Mascara Sagrada vs Pirata Morgan MS, Heavy Metal and Hijo del Santo vs Jerry Estrada, Parka and Psicosis Haven't done an ordered ranking for a while:

Pros: physical thrill, a beautiful smile, and wonderful muscles too Cons: don't want close calls, don't want dives, just give your matches a body tonight

Thanks, I worry about these things. It's a message board in the year 2024. Sometimes people go away and don't say anything, you know?

Ciclon's story is a lot like Angel Azteca's, wouldn't you say? He started winning belts and moving up the cards in 1992, and then everything went splat when he lost his mask. Unless you think he just didn't have the ability of the other guys. Mogur, Mascara Magica... like you said, a lot of workers like this got a big push before the office (rightly or wrongly) lost interest, and they couldn't stay relevant afterwards. You could group Santo and Solar in with the rest, although to me Solar was more of a mat specialist with a strange career trajectory, and Santo with his bloody brawls and tribute spots feels like a unique entity. I don't know if these guys still have a lineage or if the typical masked tecnico is more inspired by Misterio Jr. nowadays.

I like the comparison to Rocky a lot. I like it because they can both brawl, but when you think of an emotional bloodsoaked war like Chicana vs MS-1 or Santo vs Parka, it's hard to imagine either one in that kind of match. And they're both gifted athletes who can do workrate matches, but when you think of two guys trying to prove who's the most talented wrestler in the world you wouldn't really envision Wags or Rocky working that kind of match either. With both of them I'll watch a match and like it, but afterwards I'll have a hard time remembering any individual sequence of moves that they did. Eventually, though, it becomes hard to overlook that Wagner really did have a lot of really good matches. He doing good work on 1992 UWA TV and as late as 2006 (almost certainly later than that). And it's not like he was being carried. Wagner was too bombastic to let anyone else do the bulk of the work and possibly overshadow him. I'm closer to El McKell here. Wagner's easy to criticize but hard to write off just like that. Wagner matches: Wagner and Espanto Jr. vs Villanos IV and V (one of those matches where you get everything from technical wrestling to brawling) Wagner, Blue Panther and Black Warrior vs Atlantis, Felino and Emilio Charles (one of the last times Charles looked great) Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Atlantis (brawling mano a mano in which Atlantis and Wagner exchange mind games) Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Shocker (2/3 of an excellent title match, with a weak third fall, but Wagner looked like the better worker) Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Shocker (better overall match, and if you stick this third fall onto the 2002 match you have an alltime classic) Dr. Wagner Jr. vs LA Park (more or less what you'd think)

I gotta ask, if someone gets nominated and never gets added to the list, do they count? Can you vote for them or no? We're at half a year and over twenty wrestlers since this was updated.

If you asked me for a superquick definition of what a maestro worker is, I'd say a superlative technician who's always showing off that trait. The kind you associate with must see highspot submission holds. Lots of great mat workers aren't maestro types. But I'm sure everyone has their own definition. I think within the parlance of Mexican wrestling it usually means that a guy is an instructor. I just lump Felino, King and Warrior together in my brain as wrestlers who had everything it took to become all time greats--charisma, mechanical ability, physical skill (plenty of it), a solid push-- and weren't. They ended up as less than the sum of their parts, although Felino had some great matches. It seemed like they could have shelved some showiness for a more cerebral side to their game, but I might simply be searching for a narrative to explain why it never happened with them.

I don't think you have to be rudo to be a maestro worker. Solar wasn't. It was just something that united these four guys. Looking at them one by one: There are a lot of matches in which Panther wrestles like any other worker, but he's also the definitive Mexican technician to a lot of people. Even before he hit the maestro circuit, even before the maestro circuit really existed, Cerebro established himself as a supremely gifted mat worker who really liked showing off that particular skill. Here he is working a long exchange of holds in the third fall of a match (after doing the same in the first fall). And there's the title match with Multifacetico that lasts nineteen minutes, the first twelve of which are on the mat. Maybe he didn't have the reputation in real time, but he probably should have. Virus had a stretch of probably over ten years midcareer when he didn't seem to be wrestling like a maestro often. But from 1996-97 you were almost guaranteed a long stretch of technical work from Damiancito el Guerrero every time out, and then in 2011 you knew that a Virus title match was going to be a throwback to some degree. That to me is a key element of these four workers. You could tell you were going to get something out of them that was just different from the rest of the promotion. Misioneros Navarro, to the extent that he exists on video, doesn't look like he wrestled this way. But old man Navarro is the archetypal maestro worker, the one who more or less invented the throwback/tribute style, and there are probably hundreds of videos of him online versus fewer than twenty for prime Navarro. I'm fine saying that this is who he is, more or less. I don't think Satanico belongs here. Not fluid enough on the ground, not enough flair or creativity. What's the craziest submission you've ever seen Satanico pull? How many widely praised title matches does he have? I'm fine saying that he was a great technical worker, but not a cut above like the other four. He was just as much of a brawler as he was a technician. I don't have a clear image of how Lucero wrestled in his prime, so I don't know if his style as an older worker was an adaptation or a continuation of what he'd been doing.

I couldn't imagine ever voting for him. He can stop a match cold right in the middle, when it had been a competitive encounter to that point, and turn it into an exhibition all of a sudden. I've seen him, in a truly curious decision, drop a hold in the third fall of a title match just to show what a badass he is. And there are times, desperate and sorrowful times, when he and his kids will attempt to make an ENTIRE MATCH out of that spot, creating a whirlpool so strong that it sucks in even great workers like Black Terry and Dr. Cerebro. I've never hated a match from Mexico like I hated that one. Even when he's on his best behavior like against Engendro I don't get a particular sense of intensity or toughness from his matches. Maybe my opinion had been irreparably colored by his indulgent stuff that I'd already seen, but those are the breaks sometimes. At this point I see Negro Navarro's matches as tributes to the talents of Negro Navarro rather than to a disappearing and fascinating style of wrestling. Whereas most wrestlers use what ability they have to try to engage the fans and maybe even tell a little story, Navarro uses his considerable ability to demonstrate that he has considerable ability. Doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment. I guess I could give him points for innovating a style that other wrestlers have gone on to do better.

I never really thought of them as two different entities. He was still the same guy with the same skillset, just more of a heatseeker after he lost the mask.

More or less. Not so much that they can't or don't do much in the ring, and more that ringwork isn't a big part of their identity. All of those guys have great matches to their name. And obviously there are other Mexican superstars. That was just me coughing out a name to categorize a couple of aura-centric wrestlers. I see the similarities with Rayo, but I feel like if you don't buy into his act then you're gonna see him as corny. I can't imagine how someone could call Pierroth corny, even though I'm sure it's happened.

I haven't seen nearly enough of Fuego to know how he wrestles or how he's fared for himself in the CMLL hierarchy. With those guys I was thinking of sequences where the rudos follow along and get left bamboozled with the tecnico hardly touching them. Kato running along the ropes, Kendo's repeated kipups, Super Astro's backflip into his little dance number, that sort of thing.

You're probably right about Brazo de Plata. It was actually kind of stupid that I tried to group him with anyone. He's a unique performer. Maybe there's an alternate universe in which he stays in shape and becomes a beast in 1v1s, but he didn't take his career in that direction. I think wrestling is probably better off the way things turned out. I like the idea of Fuerza as a Mexican Ric Flair. I think he was more comedically inclined than Flair, but maybe I'd see Flair's act differently if I didn't immediately associate him with limousines and jet airplanes, and all I had was the matches.

I think a difference between these guys and the last group is that the last group's comedy is usually done to put over a tecnico (usually--not always). These guys will sometimes do comedy spots just to do them, stuff that might not even involve the tecnico at all. They're a lot wilder, more self aware, and their outlandish persona makes up a bigger part of their image. Fuerza Guerrera is a very well rounded worker, and I don't think anyone who's watched a lot of him would dispute that, but that's not really how's he introduced to new fans, is it? It's more like, "You're not gonna believe this guy." Cota's best matches are the ones with Americo Rocca, but I don't see that as something that distinguishes him from the rest of the group. All of them except Porky have multiple strong title matches to their name. To me that's something about this group that's unique to Mexican wrestling, or at least un-American (feel free to call me out if I'm showing my ignorance here, or at least my lack of wrestling worldliness). Emilio Charles and company were not far off from being Mexican versions of Arn Anderson, but I can't think of an American analog to Fuerza, a man who was taken seriously as a threat and as a champion despite all all of his antics and his stumbling. Maybe the British comedy workers?

I definitely wouldn't say that Emilio Charles had less ability than... well, anyone, really. And you're right that those guys could have any number of great matches we don't know about. But going on what we do have, with the possible exception of Espanto, they don't have the great showcase matches that Mexico's heavy hitters do. To rank them with the country's best, you have to be the kind of maniac who keeps track of supporting performances and random 3v3s, or you have to give a lot of credit to things like ability and consistency, which are a lot harder to pin down than just a simple resume. Personally, I don't see any of them as the type to force greatness, but they could work a great match with a willing and equally capable tecnico. None of these guys is any less than very good, IMO, with Charles and Espanto both genuine greats. That they are tough to imagine working as tecnicos (even guys who actually did like Charles, MS-1 or Hombre Bala) is a good point. I wouldn't worry about it any more than I'd worry about how Lizmark would work as a rudo, but it's another shared characteristic between them.

It's not the classic rudo role but a subset of that. Classic rudos who (more or less) had the ability of a top star, but didn't need to be the center of attention. You'd say Satanico is a classic rudo, right? And Pirata? But those men were natural stars. To me a defining quality of these workers is that they weren't born to be stars, either because they didn't quite have a star's charisma or because it simply wasn't in their personality. Including Satanico and Pirata with them wouldn't be terribly instructive. Part of what I was thinking with these guys came from years of wondering how MS-1 vs Chicana could be an alltime classic, but MS-1 could go the rest of his career without another performance like that. Or how Charles could be such a beast in 1989 and never really put things into that gear again. Or why Bestia never had that one classic match. And then you think about it, and they were all essentially in the same position in the same promotion. The MS-1 role more or less went directly from MS-1 to Charles to Bestia. Why did Charles and Espanto, not really major stars, have sustained rivalries with Atlantis and Santo? What I really hoped to do was to see if putting guys with shared qualities together could help explain things like that to me.