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I gotta ask, if someone gets nominated and never gets added to the list, do they count? Can you vote for them or no? We're at half a year and over twenty wrestlers since this was updated.

If you asked me for a superquick definition of what a maestro worker is, I'd say a superlative technician who's always showing off that trait. The kind you associate with must see highspot submission holds. Lots of great mat workers aren't maestro types. But I'm sure everyone has their own definition. I think within the parlance of Mexican wrestling it usually means that a guy is an instructor. I just lump Felino, King and Warrior together in my brain as wrestlers who had everything it took to become all time greats--charisma, mechanical ability, physical skill (plenty of it), a solid push-- and weren't. They ended up as less than the sum of their parts, although Felino had some great matches. It seemed like they could have shelved some showiness for a more cerebral side to their game, but I might simply be searching for a narrative to explain why it never happened with them.

I don't think you have to be rudo to be a maestro worker. Solar wasn't. It was just something that united these four guys. Looking at them one by one: There are a lot of matches in which Panther wrestles like any other worker, but he's also the definitive Mexican technician to a lot of people. Even before he hit the maestro circuit, even before the maestro circuit really existed, Cerebro established himself as a supremely gifted mat worker who really liked showing off that particular skill. Here he is working a long exchange of holds in the third fall of a match (after doing the same in the first fall). And there's the title match with Multifacetico that lasts nineteen minutes, the first twelve of which are on the mat. Maybe he didn't have the reputation in real time, but he probably should have. Virus had a stretch of probably over ten years midcareer when he didn't seem to be wrestling like a maestro often. But from 1996-97 you were almost guaranteed a long stretch of technical work from Damiancito el Guerrero every time out, and then in 2011 you knew that a Virus title match was going to be a throwback to some degree. That to me is a key element of these four workers. You could tell you were going to get something out of them that was just different from the rest of the promotion. Misioneros Navarro, to the extent that he exists on video, doesn't look like he wrestled this way. But old man Navarro is the archetypal maestro worker, the one who more or less invented the throwback/tribute style, and there are probably hundreds of videos of him online versus fewer than twenty for prime Navarro. I'm fine saying that this is who he is, more or less. I don't think Satanico belongs here. Not fluid enough on the ground, not enough flair or creativity. What's the craziest submission you've ever seen Satanico pull? How many widely praised title matches does he have? I'm fine saying that he was a great technical worker, but not a cut above like the other four. He was just as much of a brawler as he was a technician. I don't have a clear image of how Lucero wrestled in his prime, so I don't know if his style as an older worker was an adaptation or a continuation of what he'd been doing.

I couldn't imagine ever voting for him. He can stop a match cold right in the middle, when it had been a competitive encounter to that point, and turn it into an exhibition all of a sudden. I've seen him, in a truly curious decision, drop a hold in the third fall of a title match just to show what a badass he is. And there are times, desperate and sorrowful times, when he and his kids will attempt to make an ENTIRE MATCH out of that spot, creating a whirlpool so strong that it sucks in even great workers like Black Terry and Dr. Cerebro. I've never hated a match from Mexico like I hated that one. Even when he's on his best behavior like against Engendro I don't get a particular sense of intensity or toughness from his matches. Maybe my opinion had been irreparably colored by his indulgent stuff that I'd already seen, but those are the breaks sometimes. At this point I see Negro Navarro's matches as tributes to the talents of Negro Navarro rather than to a disappearing and fascinating style of wrestling. Whereas most wrestlers use what ability they have to try to engage the fans and maybe even tell a little story, Navarro uses his considerable ability to demonstrate that he has considerable ability. Doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment. I guess I could give him points for innovating a style that other wrestlers have gone on to do better.

I never really thought of them as two different entities. He was still the same guy with the same skillset, just more of a heatseeker after he lost the mask.

More or less. Not so much that they can't or don't do much in the ring, and more that ringwork isn't a big part of their identity. All of those guys have great matches to their name. And obviously there are other Mexican superstars. That was just me coughing out a name to categorize a couple of aura-centric wrestlers. I see the similarities with Rayo, but I feel like if you don't buy into his act then you're gonna see him as corny. I can't imagine how someone could call Pierroth corny, even though I'm sure it's happened.

I haven't seen nearly enough of Fuego to know how he wrestles or how he's fared for himself in the CMLL hierarchy. With those guys I was thinking of sequences where the rudos follow along and get left bamboozled with the tecnico hardly touching them. Kato running along the ropes, Kendo's repeated kipups, Super Astro's backflip into his little dance number, that sort of thing.

You're probably right about Brazo de Plata. It was actually kind of stupid that I tried to group him with anyone. He's a unique performer. Maybe there's an alternate universe in which he stays in shape and becomes a beast in 1v1s, but he didn't take his career in that direction. I think wrestling is probably better off the way things turned out. I like the idea of Fuerza as a Mexican Ric Flair. I think he was more comedically inclined than Flair, but maybe I'd see Flair's act differently if I didn't immediately associate him with limousines and jet airplanes, and all I had was the matches.

I think a difference between these guys and the last group is that the last group's comedy is usually done to put over a tecnico (usually--not always). These guys will sometimes do comedy spots just to do them, stuff that might not even involve the tecnico at all. They're a lot wilder, more self aware, and their outlandish persona makes up a bigger part of their image. Fuerza Guerrera is a very well rounded worker, and I don't think anyone who's watched a lot of him would dispute that, but that's not really how's he introduced to new fans, is it? It's more like, "You're not gonna believe this guy." Cota's best matches are the ones with Americo Rocca, but I don't see that as something that distinguishes him from the rest of the group. All of them except Porky have multiple strong title matches to their name. To me that's something about this group that's unique to Mexican wrestling, or at least un-American (feel free to call me out if I'm showing my ignorance here, or at least my lack of wrestling worldliness). Emilio Charles and company were not far off from being Mexican versions of Arn Anderson, but I can't think of an American analog to Fuerza, a man who was taken seriously as a threat and as a champion despite all all of his antics and his stumbling. Maybe the British comedy workers?

I definitely wouldn't say that Emilio Charles had less ability than... well, anyone, really. And you're right that those guys could have any number of great matches we don't know about. But going on what we do have, with the possible exception of Espanto, they don't have the great showcase matches that Mexico's heavy hitters do. To rank them with the country's best, you have to be the kind of maniac who keeps track of supporting performances and random 3v3s, or you have to give a lot of credit to things like ability and consistency, which are a lot harder to pin down than just a simple resume. Personally, I don't see any of them as the type to force greatness, but they could work a great match with a willing and equally capable tecnico. None of these guys is any less than very good, IMO, with Charles and Espanto both genuine greats. That they are tough to imagine working as tecnicos (even guys who actually did like Charles, MS-1 or Hombre Bala) is a good point. I wouldn't worry about it any more than I'd worry about how Lizmark would work as a rudo, but it's another shared characteristic between them.

It's not the classic rudo role but a subset of that. Classic rudos who (more or less) had the ability of a top star, but didn't need to be the center of attention. You'd say Satanico is a classic rudo, right? And Pirata? But those men were natural stars. To me a defining quality of these workers is that they weren't born to be stars, either because they didn't quite have a star's charisma or because it simply wasn't in their personality. Including Satanico and Pirata with them wouldn't be terribly instructive. Part of what I was thinking with these guys came from years of wondering how MS-1 vs Chicana could be an alltime classic, but MS-1 could go the rest of his career without another performance like that. Or how Charles could be such a beast in 1989 and never really put things into that gear again. Or why Bestia never had that one classic match. And then you think about it, and they were all essentially in the same position in the same promotion. The MS-1 role more or less went directly from MS-1 to Charles to Bestia. Why did Charles and Espanto, not really major stars, have sustained rivalries with Atlantis and Santo? What I really hoped to do was to see if putting guys with shared qualities together could help explain things like that to me.

Satanico and Casas are both alphas with great skill who were treated as such, they both had(/are having) long careers and they both had plenty of success even as older wrestlers. In the ring they aren't anything alike, though. You could group them together, but probably best to just acknowledge each of them as a singular performer in the annals of wrestling. Casas has a lot in common with the Fuerza group, but as I see it he isn't really defined by his zany antics the way those guys are. Santo could go in the group with Atlantis and Lizmark. He just has so many qualities that are unique to him--the moves handed down from his father, the formula criticisms, how natural he found it to work as a vicious bastard--that again I'd probably put him by himself. He shares some qualities with the Perro Aguayo group, but he wasn't a brawler first the way they were. Pirata has a lot in common with the entertainers, but his bloodthirsty image would be out of place with those guys. Very funny when he wanted to be, though. My goal wasto find cohesive groups of similar workers where you can sort of see why things turned out that way for them, rather than to find a label for everyone. I tried to err on the side of leaving guys out, but I'm sure you could find guys who don't quite fit. What were your thoughts?

As requested by ohtani's jacket... Mechanics (listed somewhat chronologically) MS-1, Espanto Jr., Hombre Bala, Rambo, Emilio Charles Jr., Bestia Salvaje, Pierrothito Smooth, bumping bruisers with big grins. Generally maskless, tended who have more personality than starpower. Can captain a team, but generally more natural as the #2 or #3 in a match. Often more workmanlike than their talents necessitate, and as such they tend to be better in 3v3 matches than 1v1s. A lot of these workers ended up in longtime rivalries with tecnicos who were much bigger stars (Espanto vs Santo for instance), perhaps because their inring ability and general selflessness made for a great pairing with guys who actually did need to be the center of attention all the time. Once a fairly common type of worker, but now not as much. Maybe the mechanics all have masks now and expressive faces is no longer an important feature for this group. Entertainers Mocho Cota, Fuerza Guerrera, Brazo de Plata, Jerry Estrada, La Parka Charismatic rudos who incorporated a lot of comedy and zany antics into their performances. Quite athletic as well, maybe because they needed to remind the fans that they were for real and not just pure comedians. Equally comfortable leading a team or in a backup role. Parka and Porky both spent most of their career as tecnicos, but with them I see it as their charisma engulfing the rest of their work until they were more charisma than wrestler. Superstars Cien Caras, Pierroth Jr. Dr. Wagner Jr. possibly a third member here. Alpha rudos whose star presence is their defining attribute. Generally understand that match quality isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. Probably not a very common group historically, as you can't rise through the ranks just by acting like a star. No one's going to buy that. Charisma is something that is earned as much as inborn. Pierroth and Wagner both changed their personality after reaching a certain level, and it's not easy to make that kind of stylistic change midcareer. Maestros Blue Panther, Negro Navarro, Dr. Cerebro, Virus Brilliant rudo technicians whose ability is the main feature of their character. These guys can wrestle typical matches, but they clearly work differently from your standard rudo. Longevity is not so much a tendency of this type of wrestler as it is a prerequisite. Speedsters Silver King, Felino Black Warrior another worker I'd lump with these guys. Similar to the maestros, they seemed to define themselves by their speed. That's hard to make into a strong personality trait, and as such they were minor stars who easily shifted between tecnico and rudo. All of these guys came from wrestling families. Maybe defining themselves by workrate is something that happens only with guys who grow up knowing what impresses workers. For someone who comes into wrestling just to make a buck, it might not make sense to make that a dominant attribute. Complete tecnicos Lizmark, Atlantis, Angel Azteca, Ciclon Ramirez, Ultimo Dragon Stunning flyers who could also work the mat. Very common type of masked wrestler. Not big personalities. Lizmark is more or less the father of this group, although he no doubt was inspired by other similar workers beforehand. In general these guys don't have very many mask matches, Atlantis an obvious exception here, and they're much more technical workers than brawlers. This is a type of wrestler that will get over with a strong push but easily gets lost in the shuffle otherwise. Hard to imagine these guys as rudos (although it did happen with Atlantis). Daredevils Mascarita Sagrada, Rey Misterio Jr., Mascarita Dorada Similar to the other masked tecnico group, but with a greater emphasis on flying. These are the guys fans will seek out just to see a particular spot that they did. I don't know if small size is a necessary part of this personality or if it's because it's hard to do those crazy spots with similar sized wrestlers. Dancers Super Astro, Rayo de Jalisco Jr., Kung Fu Kendo and Kato Kung Lee also in this group. Masked workers who, as much as signature moves, have signature sequences that involve a lot of playing along from the rudos. Not as much emphasis on technique as other masked tecnicos, much greater emphasis on comedy. These guys generally have bigger personalities than the other two masked tecnico groups. Rayo aside, they don't usually end up as main eventers, but in contrast to the Lizmark group this is a type of wrestler that thrives in the midcard. Their personalities shine through with everything they do and allow them to stand out even without a push. Kato is the only one of these guys who could do this maskless. Astro remasked, Kendo remasked and Kung Fu worked a different style when he was unmasked. Fairly tight grouping, not a common type of worker and possibly extinct. Everymen Javier Cruz, Texano, Dandy Kind of an unmasked version of the Lizmark group, but these guys are generally more grounded and more likely to brawl. All three spent substantial time as rudos. Previously quite common (Americo Rocca belongs here), but unmasked workers are a lot rarer now. I'm not 100% confident that this is a cohesive group, especially Texano, who was much more muscled than the other two and is remembered more as a rudo Misionero than as a tecnico. Idols Perro Aguayo, Sangre Chicana, Villano III, Black Terry Beloved workers with a penchant for bloody brawls. Spent time as rudos, some even while still beloved. Black Terry seems out of place here, but he mattered as much to his smaller fanbase as Chicana and Aguayo did to theirs. Not really sure modern wrestling supports this kind of worker, although I guess LA Park has matches in the same style. This was focused on workers who were nominated for the GWE poll, because it was linked to something I was doing there. Plenty more to choose from, and of course you also have plenty of guys who defy categorization.

I always spoiler tag my ratings to avoid taking away from discussion of a specific wrestler. The idea of starting a "types of wrestler" thread came to mind, but if it were started by me and opened with a post featuring nothing but Mexican wrestling, it probably wouldn't have gotten much participation. I'll move that post to the Microscope, but I bet if you started a thread for grouping wrestlers like that you'd get some good responses.

Pequeño Pierroth reminds me of a mini Bestia Salvaje. Not a worker with the presence of a star or one who builds matches so that he looks like a star, but he nonetheless has personality and his overall game has no real weaknesses. Bestia was probably the better brawler and Pierrothito probably the better technical worker, which makes sense as twenty-first century CMLL and the minis division aren't environments conducive to brawls. I like how his career quietly shadowed that of Virus. After their great matches as teammates in 1997, Virus went off to become big sized and have the classic title matches in his forties that cemented him as a maestro, and all the while Pierrothito just chugged along, putting in invariably solid efforts with the remaining minis and notching the occasional spotlight performance himself. I wish we had more of him from the mid 2000s. A career that spans the eras: Pierrothito and Virus vs Cicloncito Ramirez and Ultimo Dragoncito Pierrothito, Espectrito and Fire vs Mascarita Sagrada, Shockercito and Tzuki Pierrothito, Demus and Pequeño Warrior vs Astral, Mascarita Dorada and Ultimo Dragoncito (Astral backflipping off Pierrothito in the middle of the ring blew my mind when I saw it) Pierrothito vs Astral (P2) (not a great match, but I respected how he tried to make a believable setup for the always awkward hanging guillotine legdrop) Pierrothito vs Shockercito For this one time I decided to group everyone a bit differently:

I tend to associate the releasing of holds with Negro Navarro rather than Solar. I don't remember it happening in, say, Solar vs Virus but it was all over those Navarros vs Cerebros matches I loved so much. Although it makes sense how the maestros stuff could matter more for Solar's case in people's eyes, given how that period saw him presented as a much bigger deal than in his CMLL/AAA runs, he had an entire career before changing his style for the veterans' circuit. It's actually remarkable how little the CMLL front office thought of him (most of his matches there are against the likes of Supremo II and rudo Mogur), but in AAA he did get a chance to show what he could do, even if it resulted in only one major match. There's plenty of Solar vs Panther to be found and he has good exchanges with random talent like Ice Killer, and he turns out to be one of the best opponents for Angel Azteca of all people. Seriously, that was quality work whenever those two matched up. He probably doesn't appear enough in my list of favorite matches to have a shot at my top hundred, and I do consider him a bit one-dimensional. In the end, though, he was great enough at that one dimension for me to rank him as a legitimate candidate. I think this is gonna be nothing but Solar in AAA: Solar, Angel Azteca and Super Astro vs Blue Panther, Parka and Rambo Solar, Panterita del Ring and Super Astro vs Blue Panther, Ice Killer and Jerry Estrada Solar, Katana and Volador vs Angel Azteca, Misterioso and Winners Solar, Misterioso and Super Calo vs Angel Azteca, Volador and Winners Folkloricos vs Blue Panther, Fuerza Guerrera and Fishman (rare-ish chance to see Solar bleed and brawl)

He went to Japan and worked shootstyle, went to Mexico and was a heavyweight champion, went to the US and quickly grasped what got US workers over at the time. He was a smart guy who could adapt to whatever was in front of him, but he wasn't very smooth (sweet windup bodyslam aside) and his WCW run might actually be the most over and most successful he ever was. Not really the place or the style to produce much in the way of excellent matches, though. It makes sense that someone like that would end up as a longtime trainer. His Wikipedia page says that he's also a vocalist who specializes in Gregorian chant. Somehow I don't expect that revision to last much longer.

Likable, endearing worker who always tries. I just haven't found the matches that would make the foundation of a GWE case for him. There's a spark of greatness in most Demus matches but they never seem to erupt into full fledged greatness. I liked him more as a CMLL mini than as a guy who uses light tubes and tables. But I did like: Demus vs Bam Bam Demus, Pierrothito and Pequeño Violencia vs Electrico, Mascarita Dorada and Pequeño Olimpico Demus vs Pequeño Warrior Demus vs Virus

Hmmm... Brazos vs Infernales was for the newly formed trios titles. Atlantis vs Blue Panther in 1997 was the final of the Copa Victoria. I loved Felino vs Mascara Magica in 1996 even more than those two matches, but I don't get the impression it's thought of on the same level. There are probably others from 2000 and beyond that I've never even heard of. I never really thought about the subgenre of Mexican tourney finals before.

Bestia, Pirata Morgan and Fuerza Guerrera vs Dandy, Guerrero Samurai and Mantuz, 1988-90 Here's a look at Bestia before he became a CMLL fixture and a chance to see elusive Arena Coliseo Guadalajara footage. I can't figure out when this is from or what it's building to. He's feuding with Dandy and their listed matches from around this time all took place in the capital. The uploader cut out most of the first fall, so most of Bestia's offense in the video is just low blows, but he gets good heat and bleeds more than I've ever seen him do. I don't know where or if Bestia registers on the long list of Dandy rivals, but this made me wish we had the whole match and made for a fun watch on its own.

It turns out that the Pierrothito fedora logo I mentioned last week was an Ingobernales logo. Now who looks silly? Demus P2: Demus vs Pierrothito, August 24 2010 This had a little bit of everything. Technical work, high flying, brawling, you name it. Consequently I never really got a sense for what they wanted this to be about. They started slugging it out in the third fall and it looked like the match would erupt into a wild brawl, but it ended shortly after that. The wrestlers displayed a lot of ability but they looked better than the match, if that makes any sense. Demus vs Pequeño Warrior, September 18 2011 Look, I'm not a fan of hair vs hair in post-'90s CMLL. At some point, perhaps because of time restraints, they stopped working the matches by building and building to a big comeback from one of the wrestlers. My favorite Arena Mexico hair match from this millennium is when Casas and Panther attempted to redefine the style. This had most of the trappings of a modern hair match but was just about as good as you could get from that stipulation. They didn't need to fly, but at least they did it with something like a flying senton to the back of the neck. It felt like a fight all the way, and if they couldn't bleed and didn't have masks to shred, they achieved a similar visual effect by tearing each other's pants up. Warrior actually tried to cut Demus off during one of his pointless poses, and then he used his wrist tape to tie Demus to the ropes by the hole in his earlobe. Does he do that all the time, like Octagon, or was that special just for this match? I liked this one a lot. Demus vs Wotan, December 18 2017 The first seven minutes featured some of the wildest brawling you'll ever see in a wrestling ring. The next four minutes were spent setting up a spot involving a board, the ref and like ten chairs. Then it was over. The big spot was not one that was worth spending four minutes to set up, by the way. The turning point in the match came when Wotan went for a tope but flew over Demus's head because Demus was too short. Once a mini, always a mini.

Even in this timeline, though, isn't there a real possibility of Victor Quiñones ending up in a very high ranking position in the WWF? You'd probably get just as much depravity coming from their management if that happens.

Important Cagematch UPDATE: Virus vs Maya I has moved into the top overall spot on their CMLL list. Star rating canon doesn't really have a firm spot for anything from Mexico that I know of, meaning that no highly praised match goes unshit upon. There's no pressure to like anything, even an Observer MOTY like Atlantis-Villano, which is part of what makes lucha interesting in a way. But Virus-Maya, unrated by the Observer AFAIK, has yet to receive a rating below 8, and over half its ratings are 10s. Maybe it's just a small sample size, or maybe it's going down as an unimpeachable classic. Not that it matters for today's post, which is called... Pierrothito goes for the gold: Pierrothito vs Ultimo Dragoncito, October 16 2001 It is very hard to make a three fall title match feel like a big deal in just 12:47 (with replays, even). They pulled it off for three reasons. One, Pierroth was at ringside, acting as if this was the pivotal moment in this history of the Boricuas. He has to be the best second of all time, out here making matches better without even being in them. Two, Dragoncito continued this thread's running storyline of him nearly dying in a match when he sailed over Pierrothito's shoulder on an Asai moonsault. He was out of the ring for almost a full minute, but he pulled himself up out of a pool of his own blood to make sure his longtime dance partner got his moment clean in the middle. And three, even with the frightening miss, they were believable as the two best in the division the whole way. Pierrothito vs Mascarita Dorada, September 23 2008 I found it interesting that Pierrothito treated the much smaller Mascarita as an equal standing up. Yeah, he ragdolled the little guy at points, but MD didn't have to soar through the air or hit an acrobatic counter just to get the advantage. In fact his flying cost him in the second and third falls, when Pierroth hit some nasty looking counters to close things out. They were also competing for the vacant lightweight title instead of the minis belt. Anyway, the match was really good and a lot fuller than the Dragoncito match. Pierrothito vs Shockercito, July 31 2017 I joked about Pierrothito calling himself the pequeño Intocable in a 1997 match, but in 2017 the logo on his jacket still included a G-man fedora, because when you're Intocable, dude, you're Intocable 4 life (Pierrothito was never a member of the Intocables). I liked this match even more than the one with Mascarita Dorada. Pierrothito worked more like a bully, but Shockercito's ability ensured that he still looked like a legitimate champion, so the effect was just that the match had more of a hook. That's how wrestling works, right? Shockercito had some insane counters, more mindblowing than MD's dives, and pretty much everything hit cleanly. Maybe they wanted to finish with the reinera at the end, but if that was a botch than they deserve a bunch of credit for quickly devising something even better on the spot.

I've never been a believer in Barr, even his lost potential in the States. He was small by US standards and wasn't an impossible to overlook athlete like Mysterio, Benoit and Guerrero, and he didn't have an in-ring mind like those three either. He got tons of heat as an anti-Mexico heel in AAA, but what did that prove? It never translated to anything for Ken Timbs. He could be a giant pain in the ass for promoters as well. I think to avoid getting lost in the shuffle he would have needed to demonstrate a knack for creating and refining a memorable character the way that Jericho and Pillman did, and I don't know if I'd bet on him having that ability. Even if he somehow survived 1994 and cleaned up, it would have been fairly likely, IMO, that he'd have ended up going back to AAA trying to recreate his 1993-94 run to diminishing returns every time. Maybe he'd have gotten a shot in the WWF lightheavy division.

The fuckin' Juice, man. I don't have a lot of use for Juvi in AAA. I've never bought that he was the best worker in the States in 1998. I'm not a believer in Guerrera vs Kidman as a classic series of matches. I've never seen his NOAH run. But you have to be a damn sorry worker to be worse than Vampiro, and I don't think Juvi has anything to worry about there.