cad

Probably just means he paid attention to the WWF in the late 1980s.

Some unorganized thoughts on pre-WCW Parka. It's considered pre-prime for him, and I don't want to rate him in full without seeing a decent amount of his work this century, but I might run out of time. - There's not much footage of him before he becomes La Parka. Most of it is outside of his home base of Monterrey, meaning that he's not performing in front of crowds that he's formed a connection with, which makes it a bit tricky to extrapolate anything from. At the same time I feel okay saying that he got better once he joined AAA. Whether he was on the rise in general or if something just clicked after Antonio Peña told him to wrestle as a dancing skeleton I don't know. - IMO he passes Negro Casas as the best worker in Mexico in mid-1993. I still have Casas as the country's top worker overall for the year in full, but around the time spring turned to summer Parka was giving good performances more consistently than Casas. I think Parka stayed number one throughout 1994. His resume that year is nothing special, but he put in a good effort and made his match better almost every time out, making matchups with the likes of Mascara Sagrada into something special. Despite wrestling's(/AAA's) popularity at that stage, no one really had a typical number one quality year. Parka kept going strong into 1995 but Santo had clearly jumped past him by the time he started working Arena Mexico. - Strengths in this time frame are charisma, athleticism, bumping, comedy, versatility and work ethic. His biggest weakness is that most of his big matches involve some type of gimmicky crap. That's partly on AAA, but I think their style aligned pretty well with his preferences. As a technical wrestler, he was in the Sangre Chicana class of having some ability, but not really excelling at it or seeing it as a terribly exciting way to work. Obviously he could brawl, but it wasn't a big part of his game in AAA.

I could go on about Fiera for an entire page, but who would want to read that? (Not that this logic has ever stopped me before.) Instead I'll just quote alexoblivion's post from seven years ago, which sums Fiera up better and more succinctly than I ever could. The man had a borderline great match with maskless 1996 Kahoz. Imagine finding that VK Wallstreet had a low end WCW MOTYC on some random Nitro around that same time. This is the magnitude of achievement I'm talking about here. Give Kahoz his attaboys for a good performance but like AO said Fiera was definitely the center of attention. A long list of Fiera matches that I like: Fiera, 32 and Cobarde II vs Dos Caras, Eddy Guerrero and Cinta de Oro (IIRC this was Juarez territory footage) Fiera, Herodes and Pirata Morgan vs Dandy, Konnan and Vampiro Fiera, Jerry Estrada and Bestia Salvaje vs Huracan Sevilla, Blue Demon Jr. and Hijo del Solitario Fiera vs Atlantis Fiera vs Black Magic (these last two matches maybe not all time classics but Fiera is fascinating just to watch in both of them) Fiera vs Ultimo Dragon/P2 (the best Dragon vs Mexican wrestler in Japan match) Fiera, Supremo and Negro Casas vs Dandy, Pierroth Jr. and Ultimo Dragon Fiera, Sangre Chicana and Gran Markus Jr. vs Dandy, Pierroth Jr. and Atlantis Fiera vs Negro Casas (his best match, IMO) Fiera, Vampiro and Atlantis vs Negro Casas, Black Magic and Mano Negra Fiera vs Kahoz Fiera, Ringo Mendoza, Mascara Magica and Olimpico vs Felino, Black Warrior, Scorpio Jr. and Karloff Lagarde Jr. Fiera, Negro Casas and Dandy vs Black Warrior, Felino and Scorpio Jr.

What a thread Kung Fu has. I feel bad ruining it. For a long time I wasn't a fan. I was looking through CMLL matches for enthralling technical work, intense brawling and freakish athleticism, and none of that was in Kung Fu's game. Now with entire catalogs online I can appreciate stuff like Kung Fu dumping something in Atlantis' eyes and milking a controversy out of it for weeks, or the ref checking him for his nunchucks and stripping him down to his drawers to wolf whistles from the crowd. He did his own thing, and he did bring some serious fire out of Atlantis in their famous feud. Maybe some day we'll get video of his title reigns and he'll surprise me.

What happened to this guy? Most of the favorites from the early days of tape traders expanding into Mexican wrestling, guys like Casas, Fuerza and Pirata, still enjoy that status. Jerry Estrada was in that group too, but over thirty years later all he has is KB8 shouting into the wind (I've been there). Overall he finished fourth among Jerries. Canek finished above him last time, and have you SEEN the Canek thread? So was it a decrease in appreciation for wild bumping? The fallen reputation of the match with Javier Cruz? Estrada had more to him than just the bumps. He was a member of the Fuerza Guerrera clade of workers, athletic rudos who placed a strong emphasis on comedy, and when you see a Jerry Estrada comedy spot it's hard to imagine someone else pulling it off or even attempting it. Here's one that he characteristically just thought up on the spot. This one is probably his most famous, and not only did he have the guts to do it deep in the third fall of a big hair match, but it actually fit perfectly for a tired, bloodied wrestler to have happen. And, uh, here he tries his best in a dance contest with Latin Lover but loses anyway. Estrada wasn't as consistent or solid as Fuerza. He could be fantastic and terrible all in the same match. His case could probably use a few more great 1 vs 1 matches. But overall I don't think KB8's rating was wildly high at all. Even the Cruz match had more good than bad for me, especially after the first fall. I liked these: Estrada, Emilio Charles Jr. and Pirata Morgan vs Villano III, Satanico and Atlantis Estrada, Espanto Jr. and La Parka vs Lizmark, Rey Misterio Sr. and Rey Misterio Jr. Estrada, Pentagon, Fuerza Guerrera and Psicosis vs La Parka, Hijo del Santo, Rey Misterio Jr. and Octagon

Those first two items there aren't really new, are they? Wrestlers have fought tooth and nail to protect their spots for just about as long as wrestling has existed. I agree with you on the last one, though. I have no idea why fans would want to rate wrestlers by their influences, but that's what's happening and naturally guys are going to push their inspirations as hard as they can. I remember Sasha Banks talking about how she was watching some Eddy Guerrero in preparation for some big match she had and thinking it was the lamest thing ever. She knew what she was doing I guess.

Llanes peaked in 1994 when he came out of the CMLL front office to have an excellent NWA middleweight title feud that ended with him getting the belt. Other than that, the highlight of his in ring career may have been when he was the fourth ranked member of a trio called Los Javieres. He could work, but besides that one brief run it looks like his biggest professional success came backstage and as an announcer.

A scrappy worker with stubby little legs and a high, thick head of hair, Cruz doesn't seem to have stood out in the eyes of the voters here. It wasn't for lack of trying or lack of talent. Look at him bust out these Rey Misterio Jr. spots before anyone had ever heard of Rey Misterio Jr. Maybe it was just his lot to be the other guy in memorable matches. Like, when Ciclon Ramirez speared that guy into oblivion, that was Cruz. When Jerry Estrada gave the world the quintessential Jerry Estrada performance, he had Cruz in the ring with him. And Cruz was in so many of those 1990 CMLL gateway matches with Angel Azteca and Atlantis. Eventually even the front office agreed that Cruz was a bit too plain to cut it as one of their tecnico stars, so he got a (very) brief makeover with a mask and bodysuit before they decided to just keep him as Javier Cruz but turn him rudo. It wasn't his natural role and he wasn't as consistent in it, but he still managed to contribute to some good matches and create an identifiable rudo persona, as the grumpy dude who refused to fight on anything but his terms. In 1994 he had one of the best years of his career through sheer willpower. It wasn't classic after classic or even good match after good match, but he brought it every time out and made the most out of some uninspiring situations. And that's before even getting to the Ciclon Ramirez match I mentioned earlier. To me that's a masterpiece, remembered for Ciclon producing the most violent series of dives you'll ever see, but just as crucial were things like Cruz breaking a pinfall with a shot to the kidneys, or desperately throwing a kick from his back, or just that shot of him after that final tope, slumped in the front row looking like a corpse. Naturally that just about signaled the end for Javier Cruz's case. He was barely on TV in 1995, and after that all we get is the occasional late career match from his home state of Jalisco. I liked Cruz vs Cavernario, even if Cruz still tried to wrestle the same way he had in his prime. Cruz matches: Cruz, Mogur and Kato Kung Lee vs Tony Arce, Vulcano and Sultan Gargola Cruz, Negro Casas and Felino vs Oro, Kato Kung Lee and Ultimo Dragon Cruz, Cachorro Mendoza and Mogur vs Felino, Arkangel and Halcon Negro Cruz, Cachorro Mendoza and Mogur vs Felino, Arkangel and Halcon Negro (rematch) Javier Cruz vs Ciclon Ramirez Javier Cruz vs Barbaro Cavernario

Excellent journeyman type worker. He had the skills to make a feud or a 1 vs 1 match work, but where he really shone was with a team. If you wanted him to be a caveman he could be a caveman, and if you wanted him to be a pirate he could be a pirate. That's the flip side to not having much star power. You can fit in with whatever. Los Bucaneros were like the EMLL version of Los Brazos except geared more toward workrate, and he took some of those three man comedy routines with him to Los Cavernicolas, getting something fun out of an undercard act featuring three heavy guys in their late thirties. If you value tag team wrestling, and not just the ability to have great multiman matches but to actually fit in as part of a team, give this guy a look. Matches: HB, Pirata Morgan and Emilio Charles Jr. vs Super Muñeco, Ciclon Ramirez and Huracan Ramirez (Sevilla) Hombre Bala vs Javier Cruz Los Bucaneros vs Los Brazos Los Cavernicolas vs Los Metalicos (not their most famous match, but this is online and that one isn't, and this one's pretty good too) A-H rankings (partial):

Herodes has a reputation among some oldtime fans as a fantastic worker. I've never really seen that sort of ability from him. He was a fun big man bumper, but you could say the same thing about Sultan Gargola, and I'm not sure that Sultan Gargola has ever been mentioned in the lifetime of this site. (Okay, I looked it up, and he has. I can see two references to him, in 2008 and 2021.) Even against Tony Salazar, Salazar's blood and selling made the match more than anything that Herodes did. Maybe I'm down on him because I'm a '90s guy and instinctively think of him from when he was past his prime, maybe we don't have enough from his heyday, or maybe his greatness is wasted on me. I'm glad he was nominated. He had an interesting career, bringing Northern guys to the capital and taking shots in Europe.

Canek provided perhaps the only documented instance of someone trying to shoot on Haku in the middle of a match. The man had gumption the likes of which none of us could ever imagine.

That match with Pantera, already listed several times in this thread, was when everything clicked for me with Fuerza. Yeah, he was a great entertainer who could make things happen with limited workers, but he really did have as much talent as anyone. If he'd wanted to, he could have presented himself as a technical genius and a physical beast and pulled it off. That just wasn't how he saw wrestling or his own place in that world. Instead he worked this brash comedic style that constantly teetered on the edge of falling into farce but never quite did. Here he takes a meaningless comedy bump in the middle of a match and then makes a fan at ringside flinch. A couple of minutes later he's arguing with Virginia Aguilera, who isn't flinching for anybody. This is all while the most famous match in his career is going on around him. There was something compelling about him that made his battles matter even if he himself tried to look inept. And he was such a bumbler and so charming that no one could really hate him. Fuerza finished 155th last time. I was surprised by that then and I'm surprised by it now. I thought that he was one of the Mexican workers whose reputation preceded them and that he'd get votes even from people who weren't big lucha fans. For me the big question with him is whether his self effacing style would work in a big match against a great like Hijo del Santo. There was that match with Negro Casas from LA. That was pretty good. I'm leaning toward yes, that he was a genius and could find a way to make it happen. At his peak he was one of the best in the country, the second best CMLL worker in 1990 and number one in 1991. They had him all over TV in this period, asking him to do gutsy stuff like feud with two guys at once, or turn Misterioso into a somebody, or make a mask match with a retired guy an event that anyone would want to see. He's famous for his time in AAA, but Peña didn't put him in starring roles his first few years there, and though still great AAA Fuerza was more showman than the well rounded worker of 1990-91. Eventually all the travel, and managing his outside business, and his turn at promoting shows himself, and years of dealing with the juicy one probably did wear him down. He's pushing seventy now, and people were still salivating at the thought of a Fuerza mask match, this potential one against an opponent who just turned sixty. Like I said, the man has a compelling presence to him. Fuerza sampling: FG, Al Rojo Vivo and Talisman vs Javier Cruz, Hombre Bala and Aguila Solitaria FG, Pierroth and Blue Panther vs Angel Azteca, Atlantis and Super Astro FG, Fiera and Emilio Charles vs Hijo del Santo, Misterioso and Mascara Sagrada FG, Emilio Charles and Blue Panther vs Misterioso, Volador and Blue Demon Jr. FG, Jerry Estrada and Psicosis vs Mexicano, Villano III and Mascara Sagrada (if you ever wanted to see a match carried by Fuerza's personality, this is it) FG, Juventud Guerrera and Misterioso vs Los Destructores (rudos vs rudos with Fuerza Guerrera trying to get babyface sympathy, believe it or not)

Probably my biggest gainer in the last six years. If you'd asked me last time, I'd have said that Felino was all flash, or the Jan Brady of the Casas family, or a worker who knew no subtlety but only big bombs, or the architect of a disappointing series of matches against Hijo del Santo, or a guy who tried his hardest to look fast while wrestling methodically, or a dumbass furry, or the man who sent Ciclon Ramirez's career into a swandive, something along those lines. It's not like I've been entirely disabused of these opinions since then. When you think of the defining Felino moment, it's gotta be the 1997 cibernetico when he eliminates five men in a row to win. Even there they'd done something similar back in 1989, with Angel Azteca and a two on one deficit, which worked about as well. It just required a bit of elegance to make it seem like a superhuman comeback, rather than a genuinely superhuman effort that needed some thought in order to seem vaguely realistic. Felino always preferred to turn his matches all the way up to ten though. Between 2016 and now someone uploaded Felino vs Santo from Monterrey to Youtube, and I thought, okay, maybe that feud wasn't a waste. And Felino vs Dr. Cerebro showed up, another excellent title match. What really did it for me was when his match with Mascara Magica appeared. That one ran four falls and thirty five minutes, a tough proposition under any circumstances and especially with an opponent wrestling the first big match of his career. Felino more or less lost three of those falls, but instead of sulking or trying to save face he guided MM through the ups and downs of a title match, putting the young tecnico in position to show off the things that he did well and making him look like the better man throughout. That's one of the hardest things to do in wrestling, to have the skill and dramatic presence to work a captivating technical match, and after I got that Felino was capable of it, I went into his matches with a little more respect for his ability. And instead of looking for hammy acting I looked for things that impressed me, and once I started to look for them I began to find them. Now I have Felino as a dark horse candidate for the best worker in 1996 CMLL, and I'm more interested in him than in his older brother for the back half of the '90s. Does this make him one of the 100 best wrestlers ever? I don't know. He's the best wrestler ever to pantomime kicking kitty litter over a beaten opponent. Matches: Felino, Halcon Negro and Arkangel vs Los Rebeldes de Jalisco (rudos vs rudos with a fired up comeback from Felino) Felino vs Mascara Magica (this is his magnum opus, IMO) Felino, Scorpio Jr. and Black Warrior vs Fiera, Dandy and Negro Casas (you get to see Felino's sense of humor and rudo nastiness) Felino vs El Hijo del Santo (1998) Felino vs Dr. Cerebro (not actually online as far as I know)

No wrestler has ever done a better job of leaving me wanting more. There are plenty of Espanto matches out there, far more than many other wish-we-had-more candidates have, but I still dream about all of those missing ones. Espanto was one of the slickest wrestlers you'll ever see, and it wasn't because he was following the textbook to the letter. I loved the little twists he'd put on stuff, like his bellyup slides out of the ring on armdrags, his flipping bumps off catapults and his unique powerbomb applications. A joy to watch. Espanto got a decent amount of action on the dying UWA's TV, and one nice thing about that is that the UWA ran a lot of inconsequential 2 vs 2 matches. Sometimes you get a clearer picture when a guy has to share ringtime with only one teammate. 1 on 1, he has three great matches out of four total matches, which must be one of the best ratios out there. Espanto Jr. matches: Espanto Jr. vs El Hijo del Santo (mask vs mask) Espanto Jr. vs El Hijo del Santo (lightweight championship) EJ and Negro Casas vs Super Pinocho and Halcon 78 (an interesting match for comparison's sake, as Casas was one of the best in the world at this point) EJ and Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Villanos IV and V EJ (as Santo Negro), Eddy Guerrero and Psicosis vs Octagon, Hijo del Santo and La Parka

So in the link I posted above, Emilio Charles was a twenty-nine year old undersized heavyweight tecnico whose career highlight may have been winning the citywide HW championship (it's not clear if he actually did), all of which is a rather benign way of saying that his career was on the slow train to nowhere. At some point he must have looked at similar sized wrestlers like Lizmark, Satanico and Atlantis and the success they were having in the lower weight divisions and said to himself, "Well, I'm as good as any of them, I just need to lose a little weight." Anyone can think that sort of thing, but Charles went out and did cut down to middleweight and did prove that he belonged in that class of wrestler. His first big shot came when he joined the Destructores, and before long he outgrew them and was ready to make it alone. Consistent EMLL footage starts shortly after that, in 1989, with Emilio Charles as world middleweight champion and one of the promotion's top rudos. To see him at this stage you'd think he was one of the giants of Mexican wrestling. He was technically excellent and a picture perfect bumper with the best right hand in the country, and he delivered in his big matches, but that wasn't what made him special. It was moments like this, when he had old men loosening their ties, or the last two falls of this match, when the crowd couldn't take their eyes off him, turning a three on three match into one on one, with four other guys in the background. I'd rate him as the best worker in the country that year. Then all of a sudden he stopped wrestling like that, instead working like he wanted to be the world's best good hand. That's no mean feat, to be the world's best good hand, but there are plenty of brilliant looking matchups for 1990s Charles that end up being solid, slightly formulaic 3-3.5 star matches. I don't know whether it was the booking, or if he finally felt content in his position, but there was a definite shift. From there he declined by an imperceptible amount each year, the changes noticeable only over three years or so. In 1992 he was still great, but not really in the running for best worker in the promotion. In 1995 he was a solid veteran rudo with no real great matches to his name. In 1998 he turned tecnico, huffing and puffing as he tried to work rudos through the same sequences that had been done to him so many times in years before. In 2001 he was getting by on his charisma and his outstanding record in apuestas matches. In 2004 he was a comedy worker. You want to know where Emilio Charles finished in 2016? 193rd. Even among his fellow luchadores he didn't do that well. I see that Owen Hart finished 58th, and he seems to me an excellent comparison to Charles, both excellent physical talents and heels that the fans loved to hate, and both gifted enough to have good matches in cruise control, to their benefit and detriment. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a whole lot between them. Down here I usually try to list some good matches that simply showcase what I like about a particular wrestler, but with Emilio I'll try to list his best ones, IMO: ECJ, Pierroth and Pirata Morgan vs Atlantis, Blue Demon Jr. and Huracan Ramirez (Sevilla) Emilio Charles Jr. vs Dandy (hair vs hair 1989) ECJ, MS-1 and Tierra Viento y Fuego vs Dandy, Mascara Sagrada and Atlantis ECJ, Jerry Estrada and Pirata Morgan vs Angel Azteca, Atlantis and Satanico ECJ, Fuerza Guerrera and Fiera vs Misterioso, Hijo del Santo and Mascara Sagrada (Emilio is a sidekick in this one) ECJ, Bestia Salvaje and Negro Casas vs Ultimo Dragon, Atlantis and Lizmark (the only Charles match to get **** in the Observer) Emilio Charles Jr. vs Atlantis (not as smooth as their usual match, but much more dramatic) ECJ, Fiera and Satanico vs Dandy, Pierroth and Atlantis (another sidekick performance)

Okay. So at some point Satanico emerged as an alternative to Santo/Casas as the best Mexican worker, and you could probably say that it's a push that presents him as the thinking man's number one candidate. It's nice that lucha discussion can move beyond the same two guys jockeying for the top rank, but I'm not sure how much serious analysis has been done of his case, not just the good but also the bad. It's not as his career left no opportunity for criticism. Satanico has some dogs and some disappointments to his name, but you don't really see any attempts to understand what those poor performances say about him. Usually it's just something like the booking was all wrong, or the opponent must have been a bum, which are easy answers that won't do anything to interrupt the narrative of Satanico as the GOAT. Ric Flair got stick here for an inconsequential match with George South that was too good. Satanico tanked a high profile hair match with Hector Garza and no one cares. My personal opinion of Satanico is that he was great in the mid-1980s. Against Atlantis he was a genius, switching from bully to coward on a dime, multiple times over, taking the match wherever he wanted and making his raw opponent look like a future star to be reckoned with while still keeping him as the underdog the whole way. That Satanico I can imagine bringing the best out of anyone he faced on the roster. In the '90s, though, I can't see it. His individual performances didn't change that much. He still made the same faces and still pounded his chest, so I can see fans still loving it, but he wasn't really going out there with the mindset of making his guy look as good as possible, which to me is a key quality for a rudo to have. Satanico vs Garza or Satanico vs Octagon could have been comparable to Satanico vs Atlantis, he just wasn't interested. Even against good workers I don't see him as anyone's top matchup. I realize that opinion is an outlier to an extent, so I don't expect to convince anyone of anything, but at the same time I don't think I'm wrong to wonder why some of his outright poor performances have gone largely unquestioned. I'm not the guy to go to for excellent Satanico performances, but I liked these: Satanico vs Atlantis Satanico, Ulises and Universo 2000 vs Dandy, Sangre Chicana and Atlantis Satanico, Mano Negra and Felino vs Atlantis, Pantera and Ciclon Ramirez (no classic, but I liked his matchup with Pantera) Satanico vs Lizmark (this is my favorite '90s Satanico match, for whatever that's worth)

Satanico, Gran Markus Jr. and Super Halcon vs Dandy, Atlantis and Mogur, April 28 1989 To my eye this one week setup for a Dandy-Satanico title match was a lot more personal than most of their 1990s matches. Halcon had packed a big house earlier in the week and Markus was the CMLL version of Kane, but here they were excellent as Satanico's goons, picking off the other tecnicos and holding Dandy up for some free shots from their captain, leaving no question what this match was about. At the end of the first fall, Dandy spat in the eye of a shittalking Satanico and slipped free from the goons to get a couple of shots in, which led to Satanico going berserk and simply pummeling Dandy until he quit. Not often you see a submission without a hold. The second fall had some nimble movement from Dandy to evade a punch, some blood and some biting, and finally a nice technical showdown at the end won by Satanico. It wasn't the most dramatic or fast paced match, but I thought it was pretty solid with some classic Satanico-Dandy moments slipped in throughout. Postmatch saw Armando Gaitan, in one of his earliest wrestling appearances, declare that Satanico had demanded a title shot from... Mogur! Satanico had to set him straight there. Satanico, Pirata Morgan and MS-1 vs Dandy, Atlantis and Ultimo Dragon, September 11 1992 A lot like that 1989 match, but everything was bigger and livelier. Like, yes, Markus and Halcon were on point there, but they aren't going to be able to beat MS-1 and Pirata Morgan. That match didn't have anything to compare to Satanico holding up a helpless, bloodied Dandy while proclaiming himself the man, as the women in the front row pleaded and demanded that he let Dandy go. I liked Dandy's dazed clambering of the ropes and his fired up headbutts on the comeback too. The one on one at the end wasn't quite as smooth as the one from 1989, but I'll take the hotter overall match. For some reason Satanico finished things up with the Atlantida. I guess my thoughts on this feud are that they're a good matchup, two guys whose personalities play well against each other, and very fondly remembered rivals from the TV boom. As far as the matches, I don't think that Satanico plus Dandy was always a guarantee of something quality, as they didn't always jump to the forefront of their matches and sometimes it seemed like they overthought things and tried to do too much, trying to show that they were great wrestlers and then also ready to go to war. I don't think they were as consistently electric as Dandy was with Casas, Angel Azteca, and Emilio Charles. For Satanico feuds, I guess this might be his best one represented on video. There's Lizmark... maybe Sangre Chicana?

Satanico, MS-1 and Pirata Morgan vs Dandy, Konnan and Octagon, November 15 1991 One fall match from the championship tournament in which nothing got a chance to breathe but everyone, even Konnan, looked excellent. That tecnico team might look like a mishmash on paper, but they could have been a proper team. Miguel Linares described them as Konnan with the power, Octagon with the spectacular moves, and Dandy with the technique. This wasn't really a Satanico vs Dandy match, with only brief teases of it to begin the feud. I thought they matched up better here than in a lot of their 1990 stuff though. Satanico, MS-1 and Pirata Morgan vs Dandy, Rayo de Jalisco Jr. and Konnan, November 29 1991 This is universally listed as the Infernales defending their titles a week after winning them, but the belts weren't on the line. This was the opposite of the match from two weeks ago, as instead of a fifteen minute sprint this had the length and pace of something from AAA. It even had a ref storyline. I thought everyone looked better in the first match. Konnan was still trying to be a worker, so good for him, but that was some of the most awkward bumping I've ever seen. I'm pretty much objectively wrong on this, because the crowd was way into it, but Satanico vs Dandy just didn't hook me as a deeply personal feud this time around. I can't really say what they did wrong, but I'm wracking my brain for highlights and coming up empty. Pepe Casas made his debut as a ref, and him calling out Roberto Rangel (the feud Arena Mexico was dying to see) was the focus of the postmatch. Dandy disappeared into the background.

Satanico, Herodes and Giant Kamala vs Dandy, Rayo de Jalisco Jr. and Atlantis, November 30 1990 Satanico and Dandy started off fairly hot in the first fall, and then as the match wore on (and on) it became more about Kamala vs Rayo without building to any kind of climax. I can't totally blame them for being overshadowed, but on the other hand they're not rising above their surroundings either. I kind of thought that Dandy vs Kamala and Satanico vs Atlantis provided more interesting moments than Satanico vs Dandy in this one. Satanico, Ulises and Universo 2000 vs Dandy, Atlantis and Sangre Chicana, December 7 1990 This was the one I remembered as the best match of the build. If anything I liked it more on this watch. Dandy was a man possessed, showing more fire than in any other outing from this series, constantly lunging at Satanico and often paying the price. It was also the most badass he'd looked, as even in the bloody match a few weeks before he didn't take it to Satanico like this. Nice, but what really made this special was that it was probably the first time in the whole feud that the interplay between the two featured moments that could happen only when you had Satanico up against El Dandy. Satanico winning a fall on a faked foul and bursting into a wicked grin on the outside of the ring is classic Satanico. Dandy's furious response of, "Okay, you want to see a foul?" was the type of thing that separated him from the other tecnico personalities. Of course it hurt even more for him to get outwrestled and pinned in the second fall, and this time he snapped and went even farther over the line. He really sold it with his frustrated headbutt of the turnbuckle, another touch I wouldn't expect from anyone else. This was what I wanted from this feud, plenty of hatred but also mind games with each man getting in the other's head. No blood, but they didn't need it. One of the best EMLL matches of the year.

Satanico, Pirata Morgan and Mascara Año 2000 vs Dandy, Sangre Chicana and Faraon, November 2 1990 Another match that Satanico and Dandy didn't take over and make their own. It wasn't even that they had to step back for Faraon/Pirata, because it's not like those guys dominated the action either. There was nothing wrong with the work itself, but even though Dandy bladed this was hardly an interesting or dramatic match. With the second double pin finish so far between Satanico and Dandy, this at times feels like less of a blood feud and more like a competitive rivalry over a title. Satanico, Emilio Charles Jr. and Jerry Estrada vs Dandy, Sangre Chicana and Lizmark, November 9 1990 At last we have a match that is booked to be about Dandy and Satanico. The results were mixed. It should be the easiest match in the world. Satanico refuses to give Dandy a fair fight and beats on him, Dandy storms back into the match, and finally they settle things one on one and Satanico steals it. Instead of building heat they worked these herky jerky back and forth swings of momentum where no one was in control for long and nothing was as dramatic as it could have been. I didn't think Dandy came out of this looking great despite getting the pin at the end. With the tecnicos in control, Satanico simply outwrestled him one on one to win the first fall. Dandy went for a backslide and a comedic headbutt to the groin rather than anything violent for his big comeback. And every time he hit something big, Satanico would fire right back with something even bigger. I bet a lot of people would enjoy Satanico biting Dandy's fingers to escape a predicament, but if he'd rolled out of the ring and sold it might have helped Dandy out. The best and most telling spot of the match was when Dandy and Charles tore through a quick sequence that saw Dandy send Charles flying to the floor. Satanico came in and demanded the crowd applaud Dandy's brilliant wrestling, with Dandy not knowing how to react, before Charles slid in from behind with a cheapshot. That was a clever bit of interplay from all three, but I couldn't help but notice how Dandy looked better in that one spot with Charles than in any exchange with Satanico so far in these matches. Satanico, Fabuloso Bondy and MS-1 vs Dandy, Ringo Mendoza and Sangre Chicana, November 16 1990 And we're back to Satanico and Dandy having to fight for the spotlight. No one talks about how often this feud positioned them as secondary characters rather than leads. This time they actually were able to make their issue seem like a big deal, but the way they did it still felt somewhat off. One minute they were trading armdrags, and the next they were both busted open and slugging it out. It's hard to have a match turn on a dime like that, and the start of the third fall is a little late to suddenly make things that violent. I'll give them credit, though, because their brawling in the third fall was a lot more personal than anything I'd seen them do to that point. Ringo vs Blondy couldn't match up to that, and Chicana vs MS-1 didn't hearken back to their 1983 match. At this point Emilio Charles was much better in the typical MS-1 role.

How often do you hear anything about this feud besides the two big matches from 1990? It was a long one, but I really can't recall any of the buildup matches getting much praise or any notable discussion, really. Dandy accidentally slapped Satanico at the anniversary show to precipitate the turn, and the next week Satanico spent the whole match beating Dandy up when they were programmed as teammates again. Getting into things with their first match as opponents... Satanico, Emilio Charles Jr. and Kung Fu vs Dandy, Atlantis and Octagon, October 5 1990 This was a good start. Dandy and Satanico found ways to shine despite not being the main story of the match, with Dandy trying to force the action and Satanico willing to fight only on his terms, namely after someone else had already hurt Dandy. Then he'd strut around the ring like he lived there. He absolutely destroyed Dandy with one headbutt in particular, this after getting in his face and berating him. It wasn't perfect. The tecnicos had already made their comeback, but Satanico wouldn't let Dandy take control until Atlantis came over and bailed him out, which was a little weak. Dandy left the ring on a stretcher, but on a countered plancha rather than a brutal beatdown. It was good TV either way. Kung Fu made a fun little heel, pecking away and getting heat by pouring something into Atlantis' eyes. Alfonso Morales later determined that it was ginseng extract that had blinded Atlantis. Odd choice but whatever. Satanico, Emilio Charles Jr. and Kung Fu vs Dandy, Atlantis and Octagon, October 12 1990 Atlantis isn't really a guy I think of as an intense, fired up babyface, but Kung Fu must have really pissed him off. He yanked Kung Fu's mask off almost immediately, costing the tecnicos the fall but sending Kung Fu scurrying to the back. He was still gone when the whistle sounded for the second fall, but the two on three disadvantage meant nothing to Satanico. No one needs to see you fend off Dandy and Atlantis at the same time, Lopez. Things got better when Satanico flung Dandy halfway across the ring with a front suplex and Dandy used all his strength to crawl over and pop Satanico in the face in return. Later on he gobbed in Satanico's eye and got flattened by a right hand for it. Kung Fu raced back in a balaclava and tried to put his mask back on, but Atlantis just tore it off again. It was a DQ the first time, but I guess if you have a ski mask on under it then it's fine. Kung Fu got some HEAT here. Morales informed us that after last week's match Atlantis had suffered vision problems for two days. Knowing what we do about ginseng attacks, it could have been a lot worse. Satanico, Kung Fu and Perro Aguayo vs Dandy, Atlantis and Ringo Mendoza, October 19 1990 We finally got some closure to the ginseng controversy in the prematch interview, when Arturo Rivera asked Kung Fu what kind of liquid he'd poured in Atlantis' eyes, and Kung Fu explained that as a ninja he was not at liberty to discuss what it was. That didn't clear anything up at all, actually. Atlantis responded by telling Kung Fu that attacking with liquid like that is prohibited in wrestling. The show moved back to Arena Mexico this week, but the match didn't feel any bigger. With Kung Fu feuding with Atlantis, and big personalities like Aguayo and Mendoza in the ring, Satanico and Dandy had trouble just getting their foot in the door to pair off. Dandy did a neat dip and dive sequence to evade Satanico's punches, but Satanico nailed him anyway, which kind of defeated the point. He did crush Dandy with a senton to the floor, and this would have been a better place to insert a stretcher job into the feud, IMO. The wrestlers didn't do anything wrong, but even though Atlantis bled and had his mask torn up this wasn't really exciting.

Hijo del Santo's been firmly established as a formula worker in this thread, and I realize that no one's really using it to tear him down, but there are a couple of things I wanted to say about that. Santo matches don't stifle or pigeonhole his opponents. They're showcases for what the likes of Espanto Jr. could do rather than carryjobs. The formula itself is a lot more similar to a babyface having a signature comeback than it is to contrived setups that happen every match like with Ultimo Guerrero (exception being the somersault tope onto one opponent followed by the tope through the ropes). His spots were to an extent essential to his character, moves that established himself as carrying on the Santo legacy, rather than just things that he reused because they always got pops. And I think he has enough efforts that don't conform to the idea of a Santo formula that it's clear that it wasn't a crutch and he didn't need it to be a great wrestler. My biggest criticism of Santo is that he isn't very fun. He has a long, long list of great matches, but non-great Santo efforts usually aren't that memorable to me. It probably makes them seem more disappointing than they should. He ranked #29 last time, which was second best of anyone from Mexico. On the other hand, it represented a drop of nine slots from the 2006 list, and he made fewer than a hundred ballots, so he could easily do better percentage wise this time around. He got one number one vote, and to me he's as good a choice for number one as anybody. Some Hijo del Santo matches not yet mentioned: Santo, Mascara Sagrada and Misterioso vs Fuerza Guerrera, Fiera and Emilio Charles Jr. Santo, Blue Panther and Black Warrior vs Fiera, Atlantis and Felino Santo, Octagon and Parka vs Santo Negro, Eddy Guerrero and Psicosis

I don't know if these are the three you were talking about, but this is what I found. Faraon vs Chicana in Arena Mexico, purportedly from 1982 (not sure if I'm buying it), had a lot of bullshit. I knew there were DQs and copout finishes back then, but this had ref intervention and dick pointing and an absurdly convenient DQ finish. Chicana looked like his '90s self rather than the legend from his '80s stuff. Faraon outworked him. The Arena Coliseo match, listed as from 1982 but likely this one, was not bullshit. Chicana looked like a badass and Faraon did the veteran boxer trick of using the ref to wipe the blood out of his eyes. He put the fear of death in Chicana when he made his comeback and despite the introduction of broken bottles the match never went off the rails. Well, not in what was shown. There was a lot clipped out. But my opinion of Faraon went up from watching this. And then there was a triangle match, which again was described as being from 1982 but was instead from the week before the big Chicana vs Perro Aguayo hair match. Faraon was the forgotten man here, as he was in the match most of the way and the crowd spent all match calling for Chicana, waiting outside the ring, to ruin Perro. It kind of supported my point that Faraon didn't quite have the personality of his contemporaries who were pushed at the same level. He could brawl with them, though. I'm slightly more comfortable in thinking that extensive footage of '80s Faraon would make him a strong pick.

Faraon was in maybe the earliest CMLL match on video in 1980 and was a fantastic tecnico. As a rudo, he looked brilliant on the mat in crafting a terrific title match with young Atlantis in 1985. I love his realistic selling and his tope, which always looked out of control but always connected perfectly. And for some reason I'm never all that excited when I see his name in a match. Part of it is that about half of his matches are from the late 1980s and early 1990s, when he was 40 years old and semiretired, but even then he managed a very famous and revered match with Pirata Morgan. The bigger deal for me is that I don't have a solid grip on what he was all about. He just didn't have a very big personality, and with his career on video split about evenly between tecnico and rudo runs, it makes it hard to envision what all of those forever unseen Faraon matches looked like. Hard to say whether that's on him for not being more of a character or on me for lacking imagination. I do wish he had more technically based performances like that one against Atlantis, though. Matches: Faraon and Rayo de Jalisco Jr. vs Asesino Negro and Indio Jeronimo Faraon and Egipcio vs Lizmark and Atlantis Faraon vs Atlantis

Did you know that Dandy has a Youtube playlist called "Favorite Matches"? It's mostly just a catalog of his own matches that have been uploaded to the site, but scattered throughout are some others that will give you a sense of the kind of wrestling that moves him, including some PWO favorites. For some reason that makes me happy. Dandy has plenty of reasons to be cynical about wrestling at this point, but instead he still has some enthusiasm for it and the things he did in it. I know that it shouldn't count for anything and I know that some people prefer for their wrestlers to be detached from their accomplishments in a worked sport. Me, I like that when I watch his matches it's hard not to think that he believed in what he was doing. Some Dandy matches: Dandy, Mascara Sagrada and Atlantis vs MS-1, Emilio Charles Jr. and Tierra Viento y Fuego Dandy, Texano and Chavo Guerrero vs Angel Azteca, Americo Rocca and Javier Cruz Dandy and Angel Azteca vs Javier Cruz and Emilio Charles El Dandy vs Angel Azteca (It's been listed multiple times, and in fact this thread features a debate about whether it's even a good match, but to me this is an alltime classic) Dandy, Ringo Mendoza and Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas, Bestia Salvaje and Fiera Dandy, Pierroth Jr. and Atlantis vs Fiera, Emilio Charles Jr. and Satanico March 1996 Cibernetico (okay, it's not online, but Dandy was the MVP of this match)