El Dragon

I think the voting process is fascinating because with so many votes it was very hard to tell what crowds would have major influence. For example, the crazy brawler route seems to have way more support then I thought possible: I had heard the hype for Abby and Dump and what not, but nowhere on my bingo card was Jun Kasai getting top 135 (and honestly it’s cool that he did) or Necro Butcher pushing hard for top 100. I do think the 2 sub groups that have really pushed this time (other then the obvious Joshi push) are the 00’s Indy boom guys and new Japan diehards. The 00’s Indy guys that are left do have something almost nobody from the 80’s have: 15-20 cases of documented good wrestling on tape. Even past those big 4, guys like Roddy, Briscoe, Sami, Owens and Claudio just have tons of great work available out there, so them moving up makes sense. Even Low-Ki I can see moving up due to how easy to access he is (just show someone him the red clip and how can you not want to see more). 2010’s New Japan is a more interesting one. We knew there would be plenty of support for the big 3(Okada, Tanahashi, Omega) and that the tier 2 guys (Naito and Ishii) were likely going to get in, the question was what I perceived as being the tier 3’s: Shibata, Suzuki, Ibushi, Nak. I think all 3 have some decent sized holes in their resumes (Shibata’s highs are great but the match to match consistency is iffy, Nak just spent a decade basically collecting a paycheck, Suzuki I feel is strongest but there are big gaps, and Ibushi is Ibushi, and I don’t know what else to say other then that). But now it looks like all 4 are getting on, when I honestly prefer Goto’s case to 3 of them. It was somewhat predictable, but I personally am a bit bummed about it.

I’ll go Sammartino, ZSJ, Mayu, The Rock, Jay Briscoe, and William Regal as last 6 out. The last 2 purely because if I’m right at least something positive will come of the travesty.

Dammit, Christian falling short again. My #12. Just consistent, quiet great work whenever he’s been around for almost 30 years, all undercut because Vince just decided he didn’t like how his face looked.

Abby, Thesz, Gordy, Williams all kicking around as well, though the last two might be more from japan.

The Martel drop might have broken me from defending the voters completely. The singular best babyface of the 80's for my money.

I was thinking about how reasonable I felt the 150-145 drops were and then in comes Finlay to break my god damned heart.

Well yeah, but my nostalgia is about driving up to Chicago watch RoH shows in the peak of the promotion. Nostalgia isn't an enemy imo, it's just reality. You can try to limit how much it affects you completely, but I don't think it's a bad thing unless your completely closing yourself off to liking things that are modern just because their modern.

Oh, it wasn't aimed at you at all, I thought your observation was pretty clearly just that, was just using your list as a means of explaining why I thought the case didn't hold water. I also don't think Hangman should be top 100 yet by any means, nor did I vote for him. I did vote PAC, but I don't think a 98 vote probably changed too much for him.

Also, Please note, that isn't a justification for the voting itself. RVD beating out Alexander Otsuka is borderline war crime.

I was going to make a large multi-paragraph essay about how some of this "These AEW fans are ruining everything" point is silly, but I'll just simply say this: By my count, there are 26 wrestlers (Matt forgot Ishii) who have contributed to their case in AEW at some point in the last half decade that made the top 200. Out of those workers, I would say, maybe, at most, 8 of them are actually AEW first cases. Six of them (Jericho, Claudio, Danielson, Joe, Punk, and Dustin) made the 2016 list, so they are disqualified because if they made this version of the list before AEW ever existed. New Japan is the primary case for Okada, Omega, Ospreay, Ishii, and Shibata. Christian and Mercedes primary case is obviously there WWE work with other projects tossed in, Rush's best claim to fame is much more his 10 years in CMLL, Sting is god damned Sting, and all of Roddy, Mark, PAC and Kingston have basically been everywhere working long 20 year careers with great work all over the shop. So, taking out clearly the non AEW primary cases, you get some mixed bag cases like Moxley, The Bucks, and Toni Storm, and while AEW work is a big part of their case, they had cases well before AEW started. So, more reasonably, you end up with: Swerve Strickland, MJF, Adam Page, and Darby Allin as the 4 guys who I would say are real AEW cases. Swerve and MJF didn't make the top 150, and I frankly find nothing wrong with their landing spots: Swerve is possibly a little high but he's actually been in major companies between LU and WWE for the vast majority of 12 years, it's not like there isn't footage of him, and MJF has some awesome ceilings. But still it didn't push them into making the list. And, honestly, maybe I'll be proven wrong here, but I don't think Page is making the list either. Just can't see a world were he's 60 something spots ahead of MJF. So all of this griping all because Darby Allin is probably making the top 100, when he's already established himself as one of the better TV workers in recent memory (Admittedly by working every match like it's Wrestlemania, but still) That feels absolutely silly to me. I will also note the idea that "We were more backward leaning in 2016, thus our list is better" is also at least partially just not wanting to admit something that I thought was fairly obvious about the 2016 list: It's not all about being backward leaning, it was the voter base also pretty massively let nostalgia cloud their judgement. Reel used Pillman as an example of a worker who fell, and trying to find a reason for it, when the obvious one was right in front of him: Pillman getting all the way to 72 in 2016 (A rating I've generally held as one of the most confusing in 2016) was just simply way too high. I like Brian Pillman, he was a damn good worker.... for about 4-5 years, at maximum. He was influential, sure, but it's a short peak, and the peak wasn't even that crazy high, he wasn't pulling a Hokuto or something. But still, he got to 72 when a wrestler like Low-Ki, for example had a longer prime already by 2016, and hit higher highs by that point missed the top 100 completely. But nostalgia clouds all judgement, and always will. Pretending otherwise is silly. But that is also why it's going to be hard to have a lot of the old names not get beaten out by new ones as they come in. Because the younger voters, even their ones in their 20's, are also nostalgic for the guys they grew up with. Hell, I'm 37, voted in the last GWE, and I'm incredibly nostalgic for my viewing experiences as a kid, attending my first major shows that will stick with me forever. But the problem is? The guys who I went to see on those shows are still good now. The vast majority of the "modern" candidates that are doing well here have 15 damn years of really good tape. I'm not a Bucks fan, but if you are one, you can easily say "They've been a great tag team for 18 years" and have the footage to back it up. I'm hoping Roderick Strong makes the list, and a big part of that is I think he's been a great worker (With a rough year or two thrown in) since literally 2005. So the younger fans feel nostalgia for the workers who are not only still around, but still really good. Basically, I think the "the young vote are pushing way too many names whose cases aren't made yet" thing just straight up doesn't hold water. I think it barely held water in 2016 for a lot of these guys, and it's outright silly now. Well look at that, I had some paragraphs written after all.

I don’t know if this is a legit thing, but Steven mentioned in passing there is one wrestler who made the top 100 with no top 10 votes, which is crazy. When asked, they said that person’s high vote was 12. I voted Christian 12 and have been unable to stop thinking about it since.

I legitimately do not understand this one at all. Darby is one of the most easy to understand wrestlers of all time. His character is that he’s undersized, but tough as nails and will beat you through a combination of force of will and using anything he can think of to gain the upper hand. To illustrate that, he takes massive bumps that illustrate how tough he is, and uses his own body as a projectile because it’s the best way to do damage when you are under sized as he is. He wrestles in a way that is specifically perfect to get over his character. Almost all the AEW guys in the running for this at this point I have some problems with their cases personally, but Darby is just pretty clearly to me a great underdog babyface that’s building up a hell of a resume of matches on his scoresheet.

I will say, on the No.1 vote case, I largely think the Roman vote was intentionally sarcastic. But maybe I’m giving too much credit. We had silly ballots in 16 too

I mean, I think the Darby case in particular is really legitimate and he’s been adding great performances repeatedly in that stretch, and many of the AEW names still left outside of him had solid resumes coming in. Weekly, it’s up and down depending on the month seemingly. They are on a massive hot streak with Darby’s title run though.

Holy Fuck that DiBiase drop. Damn. That feels extreme

I had ‘Cide in the mid 80’s on my prelim list, and ended up just dropping him off and I feel like an idiot because Cide at 187 would have been so perfext

Darby needs to be strongly in this equation.

No Hunter and Seth even in the top 225 feels like great news to me, especially with this wide of a voting net. Pillman being the first 2016 top 10 to fall tracks with the "90's Influential Juniors are screwed" line we've been seeing, but, to be perfectly honest: he always stuck out like a sore thumb on the 2016 list to me. Real short peak, and even that wasn't all blow away stuff all the time. Just always felt like a "I grew up with him and I really liked him as a kid" case, and a lot of that voter base left and without it, the actual real case for Pillman is just.... fine, I guess?

Dax going before both Bucks makes me quite sad, if not surprised. FTR are a top 2 tag team all time for me, and both being off before 250 feels wrong.

I do love Jay White, a massive personal favorite, and just wish he could stay healthy a bit longer to really kind of "finish" his case. He didn't make my top 100, but I do absolutely adore him, and can't wait for him to get healthy. Ogawa is another one of mine, that rat fuck placed at 63 for me. He's such a shit head, I say affectionately. We need more Ogawa's in the world.

I both knew this was around the time Larry Z would fall and was not prepaired for it. First of my top 50

I can’t believe I’m coming to Abyss’s aid, but Abyss was quite good in his athletic prime. Awesome AJ opponent, and was legitimately pretty fantastic in the Embassy/Generation Next feud in RoH

I’ve always described Adam Cole as this generations RVD. Have a good crowd interaction catchphrase, do the dumbest shit imaginable in the ring but have it be unique, have very few actually good complete matches, but still be beloved. That said, Cole only getting to 350 I think is very encouraging that the silent majority ballots aren’t going to completely torpedo this thing. I was really worried he’d get way higher.

God, we need to get people into WoS something bad.

I feel good for predicting that Junior Heavyweights from the 90's were about to die a death in this, but man, don't feel good about that Sano drop at all.