El Dragon

Larry was a defensive highlight of the AWA set and I enjoyed every second I had with him there. The last Bock match was pitch perfect, one of the best performances around. My working assumption is Larry Z makes my list somewhere in the 50-75 range, just have to see it be proven elsewhere.

She's quite good, but I think there are just too many gaps in work in combination with too much time merely just being good instead of great to consider her unless she has an absolutely massive 5 years.

Amusingly, 9/20 was by far my second pick for best Martel/Bockwinkel match. It was the 8/16/84 match that rocked my socks off, finishing 3rd on the AWA set.

Not Matt but I'm pretty sure he means the influence of his style of "big match" in combination with him destroying NXT from the inside in the last 5 years.

Honestly, The Rockers in AWA specifically might be my favorite Tag Team run in the US, and it's largely because I thought Shawn in the AWA was basically perfect as a face in peril. I've made the discussion point in the past with friends I thought his face in peril work in the Rose and Somers feud, as well as his matches against Orton/Adonis and the Original Midnights, was basically just about as good as I've ever seen anyone in the role. Shawn is a man I feel like the highs are too high to leave off my list but the lows probably keep him from my higher tiers. Probably a 50-75 guy.

This is a really great post, and I want to lead with that, because I do have a minor quibble overall, but I love the outline. And this probably should be moved to the “what is your criteria” thread as it’s probably more fitting, especially with my lack of knowledge about Asuka. But I think as you noted as all candidates have a different candidacy, and just like how different wrestlers have a different peak, they also have different declines, and imo, that has to be put in play. You use the Ric Flair comparison, and I actually go the other way on this then Kad. Do I reasonably expect Flair to be good in his 50’s? No. I would have preferred if he actively didn’t suck during that time period and it is a knock against him at the candidates at the top of the list any knock is a knock. And as stated on Asuka, I don’t have the viewings to watch her, but if she was super awful for a run of her career that’s going to be part, especially in cases of someone deep diving a company were she stunk up the joint like Jetlag.

Eh. I disagree with you on this one Elliot, personally. If you are gonna use that argument, then I hope your going to just judge a Kurt Angle on his 2000-2001 as he was all world at that time and not his repetitive fall from grace afterwards. Saying “I’m rating this person on a 4 year run of so and so that is good but ignoring a 4 year run that was awful” sets a precedent that’s going to be pretty damned rough. I haven’t seen hardly any Lioness Asuka to compare, but saying “her run when she was in her 30’s shouldn’t be considered” is an argument I can’t really get behind.

With Tajiri his candidacy is better if you look at the performer and not the great matches, imo. What always strikes me about Tajiri is his ability to A: Always be more over then his push, which tells you he excels at connecting with a crowd well and B: can play genuinely any role with a company and not feel out of place to any degree. He was one main event run in a major promotion away from being a lock for basically everyone, but I don’t need to see it to know he could have been that guy too. Probably the guy who got the most done in the US without speaking English on camera without a regular manager to cover for him( even though he apparently knew English the entire time, which is also hilarious) I was his high voter in 2016. There is no way I don’t vote for him again. Name a style of wrestling I’m pretty sure he’d be fucking great at it, whether it’s a fast paced Junior match or working a Finlay style hard hitting match. I will always value versatility, and he’s basically a Swiss Army knife to me.

You guys say that, but as much as I love Super Dragon, Nate Webb as his replacement wrestling the match of his fucking life is a good end result. Always felt bad Nate never got more RoH bookings after his unreal bumping display in that.

I honestly agree with this take. I legit fucking hated everything in the AJ series outside of maybe the first match. They jump to finisher trading kick out shit so early and I was just fucking over the matches at the time and have no need to revisit. So, yeah, weirdly enough I’ve gone from someone who would defend Cena significantly when hating him was common to now someone not nearly as high on him after his “we accept you now” run. I’m apparently a wrestling hipster.

Gonna throw Daniel Makabe on this list as he’s someone I always enjoy watching work.5 more years of really good output would do wonders.

I went through the AWA set in the last 8 months with the expectation Bockwinkel, Martel, and Hennig would all emerge as true favorites of mine. Bockwinkel met my expectations for him: he’s clearly incredible and a No.1 contender. Rick Martel exceeded my expectations, and I feel is about as picture perfect of a babyface I’ve ever seen. And then there is Hennig. I’ll put it this way on Curt: he was certainly a good wrestler who put up some absolute classics. He had 4 matches in my top 15 on the set (The 60 Minute Draw at No.2, The Hansen match at 15, the Six Man with the Rockers against Rose, Somers, and Smirnoff at 7, and the title change at 15), and he was very good in all of them. But the problems to me centered on a few things: 1st problem is for a guy who appears in the 2nd most matches of any wrestler on the set, he only broke into my top 50 6 times total. Which means only 2 matches featuring him found there way in between my 16-50 spot and, spoiler, they were all matches with Bockwinkel. That kind of alarmed me how feast of famine he was on the set. Point B: is a complete and utter lack of great matches on the set not against Bockwinkel and Hansen. Some will say he didn’t get that many opportunities against other top level opponents, or point to the Lawler match. But I watched other workers elevate guys I wouldn’t expect to greatness multiple times on the set, and Hennig didn’t do it once. As for the Lawler match, I honestly felt like Curt dragged that match into the dumps, as his version of getting heat tended to be largely uninteresting offense in combination with super poor mans Zybysko act on the outside. And as silly as this sounds, that match had my best moment of description for Curt being a Low IQ worker. Lawler takes a big bump to the floor, landing hard on his head. Curt then viciously posts Lawler on the outside, and Jerry is realing. And Curt brings him back in the ring and.... starts working over the midsection? The fuck are you doing Curt! Which leads to the other problem: while he did have some absolute gems with Bockwinkel, not every match of that series was a hit either. A Bockwinkel/Hennig match is also in my bottom 5, and he has a few performances against Nick that left me pretty cold, and it’s generally always been on something Curt did that frustrated me. Comparing that to other guys who that set elevated for me (Blackwell, Zybysko, The Rockers, Rose and Somers, and especially Martel and Bock), even if they are in matches I wasn’t in love with I very very rarely thought those guys gave rough performances. I can’t say that with Curt. I’m still watching through Portland, but I already think there is very little chance Curt breaks my ballot. He didn’t even end up cracking my top 5 workers in the AWA, and he’d have to be incredible in Portland to even have a shot at this point.

Honestly the Vertical Suplex/Jackhammer into Backbreaker is what really got me. Good god damn.

Christian is in the all time “Input over Output” Mount Rushmore to me. If you are just ranking this by pure high end matches, Christian has no case to be made. He has the Orton series with is arguably the best thing Randy was ever part of, the Title Loss to Swagger, and and a bunch of good not great. But if you were watching him week to week during his ECW title run, you understand just how good he was. And if he can stay healthy for a run, he’ll remind you again. There is no worker I’m more convinced can still be good as his body breaks down then Christian, because his greatest asset is his brain. Mixing his spots up in clever ways that never feel scripted, building interesting dynamics match to match, all stuff I value significantly, and Christian is a fucking master at it. I need to deep dive his ECW Title run to illustrate how great he was at his element. A complete lock for my ballet, and hopefully we can get him just a few spots higher to that top 100 spot instead of just short.

So, the first watch party was pretty eye opening for Jaguar, and she has quickly became someone I’d be shocked if she doesn’t make my list. Just from the six matches we watched, I’m pretty sure there are a lot of wrestlers who made the list in 2016 who didn’t have 5 performances better then her performances on those matches. Need to watch more to see how high, but she’s a shoe in foe the list, and if she has a lot more on top of that, she’s a top 50 player. And to think we got robbed of her 26-35 career by a silly rule at the time.

I agree with this take honestly, even as someone not super high on Flair. My problem as stated is he has habits I don't care for (Primarily having multiple defensive spots), and I appreciate elements of him, but pretending he wasn't great is kind of silly to a certain degree. I just don't think he hit that highest level for me personally as much as he did for everyone else it seems.

Amusingly I think Ikeda is one of the people from the bottom 10 last go around most likely to retain a spot, and it’s largely due to the early start. One good weekend of Ikeda is possibly enough to strong consider him as an option to retain.

Flair is one of those weird guys who I can both acknowledge is really really great but feel no passion about due to a variety of factors that are pet peeves of mine personally. One I’ve talked about with friends is that I general despise defensive spots, and Flair has a lot of them. The over the turnbuckle into apron walk, the face plant and what not tends to take me out of his matches and is a hinderance for me, which is a big one when it comes down to the truest top end top tier wrestlers of all time. And while god knows there have been debates about this for god knows how long, I kind of dislike how he can fall into his formula to an extent. I don’t mind formula in wrestling, I just personally never really cared much for Flairs formula specifically. Add in I’m very much an input over output type of voter, and I don’t think Flair has much of a chance of cracking my top 10 or 15, and will be more likely somewhere in the 20-40 range. Where as the guys I hold as the true top end heels of the 80’s on input (Bockwinkel and Rose) are basically locks for my top 20, and most likely top 10 guys for me.

The 143st best wrestler by this listing is Villano III, and if you asked me if I’d like to watch a bunch more Villano III my answer would be “unquestionably yes”

I think you can even push this back to around 200 or so and the list still continues to be of interesting wrestlers whose careers are fascinating to look into in depth. Using the “We should do lists of only 20-30” completely misses how many great workers there actually are.

Have we discussed the possibility of sending in ballots with more then just 100 names yet and if they would have any value that way? I'm not sure on my opinion on the matter, but I know if I watch all I want to too the ballet space will get super tight.

Feels odd this one hasn’t been bumped up, as she has to be a high contender for wrestlers who the last 5 years in WWE has been a major net positive. Whenever she’s been put in a major role it feels like she’s succeeded at doing something cool, and she had a solid career predating her WWE run too. I had her on my list last time and I’d be very surprised if she isn’t on it again.

I am dumping this one up because of the absolutely fascinating rise and fall of Gargano in the last 5 years. His evolution from tag team ace in the best tag team feud the WWE ever produced, to Sami Zayn level NXT pure babyface, his outstanding match with Andrade, his huge first match with Ciampa had many singing his praises. He felt unarguable. And then he completely, imo, fell off a cliff since then. The Ciampa feud fell off the rails, he got absorbed in the seeming Hunter/HBK style of mindless epics that fall flat, and how he’s just kind of the king of the midcard guy. I have never had a wrestler go from one of my favorites to least favorites so horrifically quickly based just on in ring work. He has the highs to make the case but I just don’t see it as present.

For me personally, while I do wish wrestling had a cleaner past, it simply doesn’t and there isn’t a great way to differentiate and draw a line past what makes me uncomfortable to watch. And it’s not always as straight forward as “these are awful people” for me. For me personally when you decide you are going to deep dive into old wrestling footage you are signing a big of a social agreement that you are going to be watching people who were probably awful entertain you, no matter what style or company you are watching. I was able to watch Buck Zumhofe matches and outside of some off hand comments about how much I’d like to see someone stiff the shit out of him, I got through the match fine. There are only 2 wrestlers I think I’m completely eliminating due to person shit: Benoit (because every time I watch him I feel like I’m watching a new concussion that helped led to what happened happening) and Quackenbush (Which is personal as one of the people vocal about Quack during speaking out happened to be my best friend of 15 years)

Bumping this one up because I’m curious if there is anything that’s really popped up for him post Lucha Underground that’s been standout. He made my list last time but I haven’t followed him much since.