El Dragon

Feels like the biggest differential here is consistency of high end TV work. Both have there high ends, and I could even argue Bret’s best stuff is better and it not feel wrong, but Rey was consistently able to get entertaining stuff with guys I never really think about, and Bret was too hit and miss for me to rank there. So yeah, it’s Rey for me. He was my 1 last time, and while he will surely not be my 1 this time, he’s still a top 20 lock and Bret isn’t.

My take is while I’m excited for everyone else’s thoughts on the discussion and would love some good back and forth, at the end of the day, the master list means nothing to me past “this reveal is going to be super fun”. It will mean next to nothing outside our circle, just like how the last one was torn to pieces for not having Undertaker higher by the r/squaredcircle community. The list that matters to me is my own. This is a collective project to expand our views and have us watch new and interesting workers and form our own opinion on things on the matter. It’s a journey we are taking together, and, honestly, the end doesn’t even have to be the end. Make your list for you, not to try to impact the end standings.

I've been trying to figure out why Hero doesn't click with me for a very long time, and during the watch party it finally hit for me: For the early part of his career he always felt like a guy more interested in doing Lucha sequences that looked cool then really trying to be an amazing pro wrestler overall. As time went on he added other influences (the notable Buddy Rose stage of his mid 2000's work), and eventually put it all together in the 2010s as a legitimately incredible performer that still left me cold. I used to think I just had anti-Hero bias still and that was the block. During the party I finally figured it out. Chris Hero breaks wrestling. He is a legitimate 6 foot 4, bulky, incredible athletic worker who can pull off amazing looking strikes and throws at the drop of a hat. He is smart, clever, knows how to work a match like nobody's business, and he also destroys my sense of believability in a lot of his matches because he is all of those things and there is no way a tiny little guy like Fenix, a toothpick like Sabre Jr., and many other indy guys that he is working 50/50 with shouldn't get destroyed by him. He should be indy Brock Lesnar because his skillset basically demands it. But I also don't know how much to blame Hero on that because 50/50 stuff is exactly what his crowd wants to see. I always thought Hero would be a very hard guy to rank. Then I finally figured out why and I find it even harder to know how I'm going to rank him. But I know I am going to rank him.

My description of Orton is he has the good performances over a long time period that he basically is a lock for a top 200 if you are giving him a chance. Put putting him in your top 100 just... looks wrong. I still have him Ultimo personally.

I would just like to point out autocorrect on your phone is a bitch. that is all.

Two all timers, who are really good in there youth before exploding into all timers who could do literally anything in the ring. I’ve been doing preliminary checking through my list and it alarmed me how easy they are to imagine each other as wrestling twins in terms of how there careers progressed. Who do ya like.

If anything, I’d argue that match working so overwhelmingly well and being held up as a classic with the interference makes it more impressive. Brock is a fantastic bully, Eddie is an amazing underdog, and the note that the Spear wasn’t the finish, and that Eddie still had to use his wits, skill, and craftiness to win really adds to it. If the Spear was the finish, it doesn’t work. But Brock powering back up, and Eddie countering the perfect way using his surroundings and skill to find a way to pull it off is perfection. And, also, if it was any other character, it would hurt, but Eddie being Eddie was the perfect guy to win the title via interference and using a weapon.

I like Drew a lot, but Sheamus has 10 years of really strong work, and also was probably the best crowd less worker the WWE had in the dark days.

Cesaro is one of the better wrestlers of this century, an athletic freak who has found fun ways to utilize that to his advantage his entire career. While his offense is something he has a lot of notoriety for, his ability to bring out the best of his opponents is notable. He’s an other worldly base for high fliers, like best in non Lucha history. Plug him in with a random high flier, you will get something really fun. He also works very well in a more “hoss fight” setting, and has real good stuff with the likes of Sheamus and others in his career. He’s a shoo in for my list, no question. Brad Armstrong is… pretty good. I’d give deeper thoughts, but in my watches of Brad he’s never got past that level to me. This is a cakewalk imo.

Oh I know, but the Ambrose match was the most damning.

This is interesting because I’m not super involved in this one. I’m too young to be on the nostalgia train with Barry, but what I have seen makes me think he was significantly over placed in 2016. Not that he wasn’t good, but he finished 25th and I always thought that seemed way too high. As I’m diving deeper maybe I’ll disagree, but he is at present very much not one of my guys. Jericho, on the other hand, has coincided with my fandom almost perfectly. He was a prominent performer having his best years of his career at the apex of my “nostalgia years” But I still like Barry better because Jericho as a performer has so many things that actively leave me cold. Jericho to me can be defined by the phrase “Jericho thinks he’s _____ then he really is”. And there are so many words I can fit into that blank? Smarter is probably the biggest one for me, but all of better, more athletic, and more clever all fit like a glove. He constantly over reaches in a variety of ways, and, for me, it tends to lead me to roll my eyes more often then to think he’s actively great. He’s had some great performances, but as someone who tries to evaluate the wrestler on how well they adjust to things, it’s hard for me to like Jericho much.

Another mid 2000’s Indy peak guy that I think deserves another look. Homicide still works, but it feels like he’s really in the downslope at this time. But he still feels like a really intriguing guy for due to his RoH run, and had strong performances with multiple guys. I doubt he gets any headway, just wanted to push his name forward a bit to see if there is anything worth going out of my way to see recently.

Seth Rollins once, in a match were the focal point was that he had a bad leg going in, then got his leg worked over, would hit a running release powerbomb and deadlift his opponent into a Falcon Arrow. Chris Adams is someone I enjoy but have no real advanced thoughts on him. My advanced thoughts on Seth are very very negative.

This post gave me a good chuckle, and I shake my head in pity in your direction as well. This is an interesting one because one has every tool you could ever want but just doesn’t put it all together as frequently as I’d generally like in Owen. You could attribute that to the environment and probably not be wrong, but I think there is also merit to the idea that Owen tended to just coast. Wrestling was a job to Owen, not a passion, and it shows in his work. I would also note that I don’t blame him for his view, but it also jumps off the screen for me. Punk is the inverse. No natural athleticism, a non elite look, and always struggled with execution. But when he was active he breathed wrestling, and would do anything he could to make whatever he was doing feel important and note worthy through force of character, commitment, and will. From the matches with Joe in RoH, his brawls with Rave and Raven (Punk really didn’t like anyone with the letters “rave” in there names in RoH, did he? Didn’t even like the Special K ravers), to his run in WWE with the Hardy feud, Rey feud, Cena feud, and the Brock match, he always manages to make his moments feel undeniably important and compelling, and none of those matches ever didn’t succeed. He has an incredible ability to make you forget who CM Punk actually is in matches: It was a running joke Punk lining up with Brock would be ridiculous, and there was no way he could look like a legit threat against him. Except he did, and it still might be Brocks best WWE match of the last decade, and that makes zero god damned sense. Punk is almost magic in that regard, because he somehow pulls you in to things that if anyone else in that era tried, they’d fail. Basically, at the end of the day, the ability to pull the viewer into your matches is arguably the most valuable tool a wrestler can have, and Punk was the master of that in a time of large scale indifference. He just clicks in a way hardly anyone does, and connected so strongly in spite of lack of natural physical tools. Give me the guy who does more with less in Punk then a guy who did less with more, which I do think Owen falls into.

6 years since his name was brought up, but I think most would agree it was 6 years of quality, which is starting to really add up. With the Diamond Mine just forming, it feels he has potential to just keep adding quality work for years to come, and might be the last of the mid 2000’s Indy guys still adding significantly to his case. Sucks he’s been stuck with guys like Cole and Fish, but there really hasn’t been a drop off to what Roderick has brought.

Man, just let that stable with with Ciampa, Thatcher, and Lorcan and I’m there.

Hogans AWA run was pretty interesting for me, because I think there is something to say about undeniable his connection the crowd was. He also had some performances I loved (I think the first Hogan-Bock match somehow goes past being a semi squash that still somehow holds up as a great match, and is a great two way performance), and crowd connection is an intangible that I do value, and Hogan has it to an absurd degree. Not sure he’ll rank for me, mostly don’t expect him too, but he’s an intriguing candidate

Feels like Jay got under talked about in 2016, and he’s another super interesting name to me. He’s been working 20 years now, with only a short break in there, and he’s been good-great most of it. Anyone have anything on standout performances in the last 5 years?

Interesting Punks name hasn’t popped up in conversation yet, but I guess it makes sense to the degree that he hasn’t been active in so long. I am curious though if the thought process is for everyone 5 years removed from the last go around. I know for me Punk is a lock for my list still, but with the thought process that he was a great “in the moment” wrestler, I’m wondering if space has knocked him down for anyone?

I personally think Bock needs to be added to this conversation, but, personally, I’ve got Buddy above all of them at present. Not sure if it will hold that way long term, but man do I ever love Buddy Rose. His Portland stuff is outstanding.

While Shawn/Toyota is my "Matchup between 2 people who had tons of great matches but I think they were both my least favorite type of workers" this is the "2 guys whose actual ability as wrestlers is much higher then the number of great matches they had." Luckily for me, I rate the wrestler, and not the matches. And these 2 are fucking gems, and both are almost 100% gonna be in my top 20, both incredible all around talents with amazing versatility. The differential is quite simple: Arn was actively amazing for about a decade and change and Regal was actively amazing for about 2 decades. So, for me, it's Regal. He was my No.4 in 2016. Even with me adding a bunch more names to my knowledge pool, I still think he's a top 5 contender for me, and Arn isn't quite there imo.

Both were, at one point, all world tag workers. I legit think the best face in peril I've ever seen was Michaels in AWA against Rose and Somers. Toyota is a terrific tag worker. I also think both of them are fucking dogshit as singles workers for a good portion of there career, though admitted I've only seen a bit of Toyota. She somehow has no idea how to sell a leg in a promotion that specifically taught people to work the leg in almost every match, and I'm a "I want my wrestling to be logical" person, which means I actively dislike her work. Shawn, while I disliked most of his post retirement work, was a worker who worked well put together, smart matches for most of his prime that I enjoyed. Now, I actively believe that was due to having some damned good road agents because we've seen in recent times what happens when Shawn gets to put together his own stuff *shudder*, I can't argue against the performances. Shawn will make my top 100, though not high, and for me personally, Toyota wouldn't make my top 200.

Possibly the two greatest wrestlers at having there role and that role always working forever and ever. The old narrative is that you could plug Vader anywhere and he’ll still just be Vader but the matches will always be real good always rang true. You could watch him literally anywhere as Vader doing Vader stuff and it’s gonna be an awesome good time and you’ll feel satisfied. And the same, really, could be said about Rey, but the key differences in Reys favor is 1. He was great for much much longer. He’s showing he’s still great in 2021 in the last few months with the stuff with Ziggler & Roode, and now the Reigns feud. He might hit that insane “30 years between great matches on tape” line some time in the non distant future, and that has to be added. And 2. Mixing up how he was great. Yes, he’s only been great as a babyface, but he started great as the actions high flier, and as his speed and athleticism stopped being elite he evolved into an all world “working from underneath” traditional babyface and has excelled in the role. I have to give it on Rey on those 2 notes.

Two workers I enjoy greatly, and who compare with each other very well. I think both were great at having really strong performances with a wide range of people, and up with Muta, 2 of the 3 Japanese wrestlers that were able to use there charisma as a way to be successful and fantastic in the US. As for them as a comparison, I think Asuka has had more opportunities and she genuinely hits on the majority of her chances. Tajiri however had a habit of making something out of things when he wasn’t given the opportunity at all. I think Asuka’s probably has a higher library of good matches, but I don’t think she’s better then Tajiri on a per match basis, and I’m not sure she can hit the different roles quite as well as Tajiri. For me, it’s Tajiri, but it’s a fun comparison.

Honestly kind of loved Brunzell in my AWA watching, to the point he’d be on my list of candidates if we had just a bit more. Obviously a really good tag worker and loved his matches with Adonis and Bock. If only we had some of the Mid-Atlantic work man. If we did my guess is he would be a player for a lot of people.