El Dragon

This post gave me a good chuckle, and I shake my head in pity in your direction as well. This is an interesting one because one has every tool you could ever want but just doesn’t put it all together as frequently as I’d generally like in Owen. You could attribute that to the environment and probably not be wrong, but I think there is also merit to the idea that Owen tended to just coast. Wrestling was a job to Owen, not a passion, and it shows in his work. I would also note that I don’t blame him for his view, but it also jumps off the screen for me. Punk is the inverse. No natural athleticism, a non elite look, and always struggled with execution. But when he was active he breathed wrestling, and would do anything he could to make whatever he was doing feel important and note worthy through force of character, commitment, and will. From the matches with Joe in RoH, his brawls with Rave and Raven (Punk really didn’t like anyone with the letters “rave” in there names in RoH, did he? Didn’t even like the Special K ravers), to his run in WWE with the Hardy feud, Rey feud, Cena feud, and the Brock match, he always manages to make his moments feel undeniably important and compelling, and none of those matches ever didn’t succeed. He has an incredible ability to make you forget who CM Punk actually is in matches: It was a running joke Punk lining up with Brock would be ridiculous, and there was no way he could look like a legit threat against him. Except he did, and it still might be Brocks best WWE match of the last decade, and that makes zero god damned sense. Punk is almost magic in that regard, because he somehow pulls you in to things that if anyone else in that era tried, they’d fail. Basically, at the end of the day, the ability to pull the viewer into your matches is arguably the most valuable tool a wrestler can have, and Punk was the master of that in a time of large scale indifference. He just clicks in a way hardly anyone does, and connected so strongly in spite of lack of natural physical tools. Give me the guy who does more with less in Punk then a guy who did less with more, which I do think Owen falls into.

6 years since his name was brought up, but I think most would agree it was 6 years of quality, which is starting to really add up. With the Diamond Mine just forming, it feels he has potential to just keep adding quality work for years to come, and might be the last of the mid 2000’s Indy guys still adding significantly to his case. Sucks he’s been stuck with guys like Cole and Fish, but there really hasn’t been a drop off to what Roderick has brought.

Man, just let that stable with with Ciampa, Thatcher, and Lorcan and I’m there.

Hogans AWA run was pretty interesting for me, because I think there is something to say about undeniable his connection the crowd was. He also had some performances I loved (I think the first Hogan-Bock match somehow goes past being a semi squash that still somehow holds up as a great match, and is a great two way performance), and crowd connection is an intangible that I do value, and Hogan has it to an absurd degree. Not sure he’ll rank for me, mostly don’t expect him too, but he’s an intriguing candidate

Feels like Jay got under talked about in 2016, and he’s another super interesting name to me. He’s been working 20 years now, with only a short break in there, and he’s been good-great most of it. Anyone have anything on standout performances in the last 5 years?

Interesting Punks name hasn’t popped up in conversation yet, but I guess it makes sense to the degree that he hasn’t been active in so long. I am curious though if the thought process is for everyone 5 years removed from the last go around. I know for me Punk is a lock for my list still, but with the thought process that he was a great “in the moment” wrestler, I’m wondering if space has knocked him down for anyone?

I personally think Bock needs to be added to this conversation, but, personally, I’ve got Buddy above all of them at present. Not sure if it will hold that way long term, but man do I ever love Buddy Rose. His Portland stuff is outstanding.

While Shawn/Toyota is my "Matchup between 2 people who had tons of great matches but I think they were both my least favorite type of workers" this is the "2 guys whose actual ability as wrestlers is much higher then the number of great matches they had." Luckily for me, I rate the wrestler, and not the matches. And these 2 are fucking gems, and both are almost 100% gonna be in my top 20, both incredible all around talents with amazing versatility. The differential is quite simple: Arn was actively amazing for about a decade and change and Regal was actively amazing for about 2 decades. So, for me, it's Regal. He was my No.4 in 2016. Even with me adding a bunch more names to my knowledge pool, I still think he's a top 5 contender for me, and Arn isn't quite there imo.

Both were, at one point, all world tag workers. I legit think the best face in peril I've ever seen was Michaels in AWA against Rose and Somers. Toyota is a terrific tag worker. I also think both of them are fucking dogshit as singles workers for a good portion of there career, though admitted I've only seen a bit of Toyota. She somehow has no idea how to sell a leg in a promotion that specifically taught people to work the leg in almost every match, and I'm a "I want my wrestling to be logical" person, which means I actively dislike her work. Shawn, while I disliked most of his post retirement work, was a worker who worked well put together, smart matches for most of his prime that I enjoyed. Now, I actively believe that was due to having some damned good road agents because we've seen in recent times what happens when Shawn gets to put together his own stuff *shudder*, I can't argue against the performances. Shawn will make my top 100, though not high, and for me personally, Toyota wouldn't make my top 200.

Possibly the two greatest wrestlers at having there role and that role always working forever and ever. The old narrative is that you could plug Vader anywhere and he’ll still just be Vader but the matches will always be real good always rang true. You could watch him literally anywhere as Vader doing Vader stuff and it’s gonna be an awesome good time and you’ll feel satisfied. And the same, really, could be said about Rey, but the key differences in Reys favor is 1. He was great for much much longer. He’s showing he’s still great in 2021 in the last few months with the stuff with Ziggler & Roode, and now the Reigns feud. He might hit that insane “30 years between great matches on tape” line some time in the non distant future, and that has to be added. And 2. Mixing up how he was great. Yes, he’s only been great as a babyface, but he started great as the actions high flier, and as his speed and athleticism stopped being elite he evolved into an all world “working from underneath” traditional babyface and has excelled in the role. I have to give it on Rey on those 2 notes.

Two workers I enjoy greatly, and who compare with each other very well. I think both were great at having really strong performances with a wide range of people, and up with Muta, 2 of the 3 Japanese wrestlers that were able to use there charisma as a way to be successful and fantastic in the US. As for them as a comparison, I think Asuka has had more opportunities and she genuinely hits on the majority of her chances. Tajiri however had a habit of making something out of things when he wasn’t given the opportunity at all. I think Asuka’s probably has a higher library of good matches, but I don’t think she’s better then Tajiri on a per match basis, and I’m not sure she can hit the different roles quite as well as Tajiri. For me, it’s Tajiri, but it’s a fun comparison.

Honestly kind of loved Brunzell in my AWA watching, to the point he’d be on my list of candidates if we had just a bit more. Obviously a really good tag worker and loved his matches with Adonis and Bock. If only we had some of the Mid-Atlantic work man. If we did my guess is he would be a player for a lot of people.

Larry was a defensive highlight of the AWA set and I enjoyed every second I had with him there. The last Bock match was pitch perfect, one of the best performances around. My working assumption is Larry Z makes my list somewhere in the 50-75 range, just have to see it be proven elsewhere.

She's quite good, but I think there are just too many gaps in work in combination with too much time merely just being good instead of great to consider her unless she has an absolutely massive 5 years.

Amusingly, 9/20 was by far my second pick for best Martel/Bockwinkel match. It was the 8/16/84 match that rocked my socks off, finishing 3rd on the AWA set.

Not Matt but I'm pretty sure he means the influence of his style of "big match" in combination with him destroying NXT from the inside in the last 5 years.

Honestly, The Rockers in AWA specifically might be my favorite Tag Team run in the US, and it's largely because I thought Shawn in the AWA was basically perfect as a face in peril. I've made the discussion point in the past with friends I thought his face in peril work in the Rose and Somers feud, as well as his matches against Orton/Adonis and the Original Midnights, was basically just about as good as I've ever seen anyone in the role. Shawn is a man I feel like the highs are too high to leave off my list but the lows probably keep him from my higher tiers. Probably a 50-75 guy.

This is a really great post, and I want to lead with that, because I do have a minor quibble overall, but I love the outline. And this probably should be moved to the “what is your criteria” thread as it’s probably more fitting, especially with my lack of knowledge about Asuka. But I think as you noted as all candidates have a different candidacy, and just like how different wrestlers have a different peak, they also have different declines, and imo, that has to be put in play. You use the Ric Flair comparison, and I actually go the other way on this then Kad. Do I reasonably expect Flair to be good in his 50’s? No. I would have preferred if he actively didn’t suck during that time period and it is a knock against him at the candidates at the top of the list any knock is a knock. And as stated on Asuka, I don’t have the viewings to watch her, but if she was super awful for a run of her career that’s going to be part, especially in cases of someone deep diving a company were she stunk up the joint like Jetlag.

Eh. I disagree with you on this one Elliot, personally. If you are gonna use that argument, then I hope your going to just judge a Kurt Angle on his 2000-2001 as he was all world at that time and not his repetitive fall from grace afterwards. Saying “I’m rating this person on a 4 year run of so and so that is good but ignoring a 4 year run that was awful” sets a precedent that’s going to be pretty damned rough. I haven’t seen hardly any Lioness Asuka to compare, but saying “her run when she was in her 30’s shouldn’t be considered” is an argument I can’t really get behind.

With Tajiri his candidacy is better if you look at the performer and not the great matches, imo. What always strikes me about Tajiri is his ability to A: Always be more over then his push, which tells you he excels at connecting with a crowd well and B: can play genuinely any role with a company and not feel out of place to any degree. He was one main event run in a major promotion away from being a lock for basically everyone, but I don’t need to see it to know he could have been that guy too. Probably the guy who got the most done in the US without speaking English on camera without a regular manager to cover for him( even though he apparently knew English the entire time, which is also hilarious) I was his high voter in 2016. There is no way I don’t vote for him again. Name a style of wrestling I’m pretty sure he’d be fucking great at it, whether it’s a fast paced Junior match or working a Finlay style hard hitting match. I will always value versatility, and he’s basically a Swiss Army knife to me.

You guys say that, but as much as I love Super Dragon, Nate Webb as his replacement wrestling the match of his fucking life is a good end result. Always felt bad Nate never got more RoH bookings after his unreal bumping display in that.

I honestly agree with this take. I legit fucking hated everything in the AJ series outside of maybe the first match. They jump to finisher trading kick out shit so early and I was just fucking over the matches at the time and have no need to revisit. So, yeah, weirdly enough I’ve gone from someone who would defend Cena significantly when hating him was common to now someone not nearly as high on him after his “we accept you now” run. I’m apparently a wrestling hipster.

Gonna throw Daniel Makabe on this list as he’s someone I always enjoy watching work.5 more years of really good output would do wonders.

I went through the AWA set in the last 8 months with the expectation Bockwinkel, Martel, and Hennig would all emerge as true favorites of mine. Bockwinkel met my expectations for him: he’s clearly incredible and a No.1 contender. Rick Martel exceeded my expectations, and I feel is about as picture perfect of a babyface I’ve ever seen. And then there is Hennig. I’ll put it this way on Curt: he was certainly a good wrestler who put up some absolute classics. He had 4 matches in my top 15 on the set (The 60 Minute Draw at No.2, The Hansen match at 15, the Six Man with the Rockers against Rose, Somers, and Smirnoff at 7, and the title change at 15), and he was very good in all of them. But the problems to me centered on a few things: 1st problem is for a guy who appears in the 2nd most matches of any wrestler on the set, he only broke into my top 50 6 times total. Which means only 2 matches featuring him found there way in between my 16-50 spot and, spoiler, they were all matches with Bockwinkel. That kind of alarmed me how feast of famine he was on the set. Point B: is a complete and utter lack of great matches on the set not against Bockwinkel and Hansen. Some will say he didn’t get that many opportunities against other top level opponents, or point to the Lawler match. But I watched other workers elevate guys I wouldn’t expect to greatness multiple times on the set, and Hennig didn’t do it once. As for the Lawler match, I honestly felt like Curt dragged that match into the dumps, as his version of getting heat tended to be largely uninteresting offense in combination with super poor mans Zybysko act on the outside. And as silly as this sounds, that match had my best moment of description for Curt being a Low IQ worker. Lawler takes a big bump to the floor, landing hard on his head. Curt then viciously posts Lawler on the outside, and Jerry is realing. And Curt brings him back in the ring and.... starts working over the midsection? The fuck are you doing Curt! Which leads to the other problem: while he did have some absolute gems with Bockwinkel, not every match of that series was a hit either. A Bockwinkel/Hennig match is also in my bottom 5, and he has a few performances against Nick that left me pretty cold, and it’s generally always been on something Curt did that frustrated me. Comparing that to other guys who that set elevated for me (Blackwell, Zybysko, The Rockers, Rose and Somers, and especially Martel and Bock), even if they are in matches I wasn’t in love with I very very rarely thought those guys gave rough performances. I can’t say that with Curt. I’m still watching through Portland, but I already think there is very little chance Curt breaks my ballot. He didn’t even end up cracking my top 5 workers in the AWA, and he’d have to be incredible in Portland to even have a shot at this point.

Honestly the Vertical Suplex/Jackhammer into Backbreaker is what really got me. Good god damn.