BrianB

They're still there under the old podcast name, I think. CBS had that show.

IMO, Dave always protected Pillman more than he did Ric.

All I have to say is....SummerSlam 1992! Okay, I slightly lied. What a fucking show. A great deep dive and some emails. Anybody who wants in on the lunacy of the harts and Diana Hart's commentary should listen to this most recent show.

Having grown up in Greenville, SC, I can add maybe a bit of context and perspective. Anybody else from there probably has a more informed idea, though, than me, since I was 11 at the time. And, unfortunately, I didn't see this Nitro in person because it was a school night and my parents were kinda strict. It still kills me a little to this day. Some of my friends went, so I got lots of second-hand opinions and I watched this show at least 3x when I was still in the 5th grade. Anyway, this show was one of the first shows at the recently opened BiLo Center. They'd blown up the Memorial Auditorum about a year earlier, and shut it down completely a months before that. So local fans were really dying to see wrestling live again. Obviously, I didn't know that many older at the time, but from what I remember lots of people were more excited that Greenville would start getting bigger acts and shows, and for wrestling that meant possibly more Nitros and PPVs, and by extension likely better (or higher profile) matches and angles, since the roughly 7,000 seat Auditorum wasn't going to cut it for those kinds of acts. Greenville's proximity to Anderson, Clemson (lots of Clemson signs at this show), Spartanburg, Simpsonville, Asheville, etc. likely played a big role, especially since that's fertile ground for Flair county. I might be projecting some since I was young, but I suspect that local fans having missed out on a lot of big momentous stuff while WCW started to kick into it's boom and bigger cultural period in 1997 had felt left out of the loop because of getting fewer major shows, as well as how as Kris has talked about the perception that WCW was distancing itself from it's southern roots. Flair was both a comeback story that fed into the regions idea of restoration, and he was associated with the area, as well as just being a guy with massive cultural clout from all his years in JCP, NWA, and WCW. I suspect that the confluence of those factors really helped feed into that reaction that night, especially since it was executed so damn well. BTW, I got a massive laugh out of Bix's repeated attempts to pronounce Mauldin. Locally, there's way less emphasis on the U--it's a bit more like mall--din or mawl-din--but keep in mind since we're in the south the 'a' is dragged out. As a general rule, southerners let their vowels go on and on. Greenville the city is pretty small because so many municipalities and cities have separated themselves because they didn't want the tax rates or whatever, and I'm not sure why exactly but the city hasn't really been successful annexing nearby municiplaities. The county is much larger. Spartanburg might be part of the larger area, but locally Spartanburg is considered different. It's basically been the longtime rival city that Greenville has now surpassed, but it has it own separate county that bears it's name just like Greenville has Greenville County. Off the top of my head, the Nitro after Havoc 1998 when Nitro re-aired DDP vs. Goldberg from the PPV might have beaten RAW in the ratings. Not sure how many more there were after that. Fantastic btw.

looking forward to the rest of this show. just got early into the actual clash recap.

Fantastic show, and some major episodes the past weeks since the end of the Starrcade memorial journey, and this show has kicked off. Lots of wrestling pods have upped their game since TLF came onto the scene. But, imo, nobody has come close to maintaining the consistent quality that they do for each episode when you consider the time allotted. (I'll give a shoutout to Between The Sheets, though, as they're awesome and all the 3+ hour pods they dish out, but Jack and JP consistently are going 6, 7...even up to 9+ hour eps.) Here's the recent episode list so far. -SummerSlam 1992 -Royal Rumble 1998 -Royal Rumble 2000 -Thunder in Paradise -Saturday Night's Main Event - 10/14/89 catch-up on i-tunes or on soundcloud. https://soundcloud.com/thelapsedfan plus, in the interim, after starracade and before patreon request series 2, there was the Uncensored 1995 cast as well as the all-time episode of Over The Edge 1999. SummerSlam 1992 has been especially exemplary. inb4 we got a cuppa haters.

Those WCW family feuds are hilarious. Here's a link to the one played during the ep: They even managed to film one while Kevin Nash was still a Master Blaster, not sure if his partner had already run out and WCW hadn't jettisoned moving on from the idea, which is a real keeper since Sid is also on that ep. Anybody got the full version? I could only find the highlights on youtube. COFFEE! What Kris said^ It's monthly, but it's up to you for how long to keep donating. There is no time frame commitment, so you can back out at any month before the billing period, which is typically at the beginning of the following month (e.g. if you pledge $25 today, it won't be drawn until early October, usually the first weekday.)

I'd agree with almost everyone else in the thread. Devon is good. He adds some unique angles and takes everytime out. I don't know if he is consciously working to do that or not, but I notice it and it adds to the shows. I'll also give Johnny props. I don't always agree with his opinions or analysis, but he really brought a strong improv chemistry and dynamism to the show and lots of money moments. He always does that every show really, but this was one stood out to me as I was listening because he seemed really on his game. (To be fair, I listened to this show over multiple different locations, so I might have noticed it more this go around. In short, you did awesome, Mr. Sorrow.) They are - https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-place-to-be-podcast/id500883402?mt=2 We do not cross post them to the PWO-PTBN feed because both This Week in Wrestling and Between the Sheets are Monday AM drops. This took me awhile to figure out sadly, but I'm very glad I did a month or so ago.

Historical significance? I'll consider it if I know it. I tend to look at that, but it's got limits in terms of impacting how I'll think about the match on some star rating scale. Piper-Hogan's PPV matches in WCW in 1996 and 1997 might be historically significant because of the numbers they drew for those shows, the whole context of the Hogan-Piper feud from the 80s that was monumental for the wrestling business but never had a decisive finish, etc. But....that's not going to work me into a shoot of awarding any of those matches 3 stars (or probably even 2). Same with Hogan and Andre, which you mentioned. Let's take some other examples: how does significance of knowing that Hogan-Warrior WM6 didn't result fullly pass the torch ,and that Hogan would be back at WM7 in the main event without Warrior impact assessing the match to me? Not much, if we're just talking star ratings. I understand it differently. And that's important to me from a historical and fan perspective, but it's attenuated enough to be a separate factor from evaluating the match. Similarly, Bret and Austin at WM13, while a poor business show by WM standards and an on-off feud, is a pivotal match in the arc of Steve Austin vs. the Hart Foundation and Steve Austin becoming one of the biggest stars in wrestling history. So it adds some resonance to the greatness of the match, and maybe boosts it a bit? It's hard to say, since I grew up watching that period so that might cloud my assessment. IMO, there's a delicate balance between considering historical significance and the bigger storylines when you look at a match and venturing too far into hindsight bias, imo. For instance, I think Goldberg vs. Nash at Starrcade 1998 is fine to good as a match. But it's historical significance and bad storytelling with the terrible follow-up and the fingerpoke of doom afterwards is partly why it's hated. IMO, that's sort of sloppy analysis clouded by hindsight. Personally, as a viewer, my preference is for matches that stand out as great singular viewing experiences, where maybe if you got the functional equivalent to good, quick promo package hyping the match for contextualizing the match and/or the program, you'd be able to appreciate at least 90% of it. I'm usually interested to hear about crazy backstage stuff that might play into it, or some extra biographical or past programs, styles, etc. that it builds on, but at a certain point, imo, it's like a film or a book. Is the text/match good, effective, interesting, and sturdy enough as a work to sustain being elevated by those additional or other ways of looking at it? (Other ways being context, subtext, and inter-text.) This may be getting sidetracked a bit, but I think looking more at the product itself to evaluate it makes the most sense because wrestling is a form of mass entertainment and is more or less a traveling carnival show. It's not something like a Faulkner novel where it's more defensible to justify as a critic to call the novel as a classic because of various deep interpretative layers, even if the characters, their interpersonal dynamic, the plot, and page to page readability (I guess that's a word?) is a slog. Digesting and mulling over a match, how its worked, how it builds is awesome. But I'm less likely to suddenly consider a match I thought sucked a 4.5-5 star classic, unless I was just really young or completely uneducated and with the wrong expectations, than I am to completely 180 on a novel or, to a lesser extent, a movie. I guess my ultimate answer to your question is that I consider storylines and promos to help me understand the context of the match and program that can sway my rating some, not a ton by themselves but some. And historical significance can color or change my rating slightly, but less than storylines and promos when looking at afterwards, although it could have an indirect impact since lots of historically significant matches and programs are ones where the crowds go absolutely mental and crowd participation can really elevate a match.

Technically the main event was Gilbert and Rick Steiner vs. Sullivan and Spivey....5 stars? But did you mean Flair-Steamer and then the post-match angle with Flair-Funk? 1 star for Flair and Funk and the table piledriver? Yeah, that would be a singular opinion... Surely you've seen enough wrestling to know that the main event isn't always the last match. For decades in the WWF, the main events (and they were announced as such) went in the middle of the card. Exact same thing as WrestleWar '89. I know. I was being cheeky. I'm glad you brought that match up though, as I'd agree it's a case where the match is distinct from the angle immediately following it.

I like it. Interaction usually makes things better and more interesting. The risk is if things becoming too tired or meandering. And also showing the downsides, like the nWo did later too, where if there aren't enough changes, developments, and payoffs over time, you start getting a sour taste.

Technically the main event was Gilbert and Rick Steiner vs. Sullivan and Spivey....5 stars? But did you mean Flair-Steamer and then the post-match angle with Flair-Funk? 1 star for Flair and Funk and the table piledriver? Yeah, that would be a singular opinion... That's also a good example of something where I'd agree that the match and then the Funk-Flair stuff after the match have to be considered separately. IMO, separately awesome, but clearly distinct. One is literally the conclusion of a big feud, and the other launches the next feud, even if Flair never went back through the curtain before the Funk sheenanigans started.

No. You get too far down that road, that's just fantasy booking and letting that overly impact your expectations and standards, imo. However, the overall product would have been better if there was better continuity and pay off down the line. FWIW, I'm not one of the people who hated that finish to that match, however.

The bell might as well be a spot or transition in the match. Unless its clearly broken up with something else occurring beforehand, I'm usually inclined to treat it at all as part of the match. I'm kind of inclined to take this approach sometimes, but I'm not sure that works as a hard and fast rule. Some run-in DQ finishes seem like they could be tricky, especially depending on how they unfold. Sometimes that's a way to transition over or back to telling a different story, and sometimes it'll develop into a such a beatdown or angle (e.g. Flair breaking Dusty's leg) that it becomes more a post-match angle than part of the match.

It's important. It doesn't have to be the best part of a match, but a poorly executed or lackluster finish definitely makes it difficult for a match to be an all-time 5 star classic, for me anyway. I think that can elevate a match. I don't have a hard and fast rule on it, but sometimes the post-match is pivotal to the storytelling. Two of the biggest high-profile examples, imo, would be 1. Austin-Bret at WM13 and 2. Savage/Warrior at WM7. For WM13, finish itself is quite good, but the post-match with Bret attacking Austin, backing down from Shamrock, and Austin refusing help is for me what completes the double turn and makes it my favorite wrestlemania match of all time. WM7, the finish was fine to good for the match but a bit much (5 fucking elbows!?!!?), however the whole post-match reunion between Liz and Macho is one of the most touching moments I've seen in wrestling. It got me as a kid and it still gets me to this day. Brilliant storytelling. I think that factors into evaluating that match as well because the storytelling continues after the bell. Ultimately, it's subjective, but I think I try to approach it by looking at the storytelling. If the post-match doesn't advance or bear much on the story, then I'll tend to look and think about the quality of the match a little more bell to bell only. I prefer the Flair/Funk GAB 89 match to their outstanding I Quit match at the Clash later that year. I also love the beatdown and brawl after the bell rings between Flair, Funk, Muta, and Sting.. But I don't look at it as part of the match, although maybe you could make an argument it should be. You've got to have a dividing line somewhere. I guess for some that's when both guys are through the curtain. For others, it's when the bell rings. I'd have to think more about it, but my hunch is that I'm probably more in the middle.

It's always fun having Jordan on these shows. Great as always so far. The underrated part, besides no internet, for why we get all these weird rumors either about PoP and the Road Warriors or Texas Tornado and the Ultimate Warrior, I think also goes some to how bad of quality most TV broadcasts and TVs that people watched these shows on were. Also, did PoP ever travel with the Road Warriors? I also thought Kerry and Hellwig sometimes traveling together somehow may have played into that rumor, whether it's just people being bad with faces or some guy spotting one at the gas station, telling his pals and maybe they show up and see the other one, and not everybody is going to have a camera with them to pose and document everything. I hope that will be broached next show! Most likely after Brooks has just been TKO'd or choked out the night before.

Maybe throw a Frankensteiner or two in there too right?I didn't mind the finish but the post match was really weak. I got no sense that it was the end of a long feud because they didn't shake hands afterwards or start crying and take bows to the crowd.First time around the finish did take me a bit off guard and it is a little abrupt. But expecting definitive finishers in 1983 just wasn't how they tended to work. For example, the blow off to the epic Bruno vs. Larry feud is just Bruno walking out of the cage. What's the finish of Final Conflict? Kernodle has Youngblood covered and Sarge is tied up with the ref while Steamer goes over and rolls Youngblood on top. The finish isn't really what you remember, it's the massive bump from Sarge and the huge amounts of blood, Here the finish isn't what you remember, it's them laying in shots on their knees, and again the colour. Magnum vs Tully has a really memorable finish, but I can't really recall off-hand finishes for Sarge vs. Patterson or Sarge vs. Sheik. Doesn't Sarge just whack him with a boot one last time or something like that? The idea of attritional damage and being exhausted / worn down through brutality was bigger in the early 80s than it would be later when it's all about the impact of one big move. I agree with almost all of that. However, the match still would have been stronger with a more solid finish. I'm a little leery of calling that ahistorical aesthetic criticism because it's also not like most old school wrestlers didn't put a lot of importance on properly working the finish. Plus, this is a big match booked with a clear finish, rather than a non-finish or a screwy finish. I will say that everyone saying it's just a whipping a guy face first into the cage, to me that seems a little bit wrong. Really, it's picking him up and doing that 2x. And it's 2x after Rich gets advantage after Sawyer's failed crossbody and a couple other face first throws into the cage. (I liked this aspect because I'm so tired of the WWE standard routine of...omg shocked face! he kicked out!? stall or let other guy get his offense coming back, instead Rich is just going to keep fighting through exhaustion and do it again!) I liked the finish for helping to play into the major idea for the match of playing into the attrition and exhaustion aspect of the match. However, even on a few re-watches, it strikes me as a minute or two too soon for that, even considering all the blood gushing and how yes, guys will gas out very quickly in a real fight. I think the crowd, while satisfied, was ready for either more or a more definitive stamp moment to it. Along those lines, and finally, I think they could have tried to work something out to make that final blow into the cage more impactful looking because everyone probably will remember that missed crossbody that kicked off the prior nearfall sequence more. Maybe even something like Sawyer barely getting a shoulder up and an exhausted Rich, who can hardly stand, just gets a mount type position on him, hits him a couple times, and headbutts him a few times before almost collapsing into the final pin. With all the blood and Rich's hair, I think that might have been more impactful. -Re: Sawyer and Rich and the arm. Somewhat. But it is awful fast, even for wrestling logic. Sawyer definitely stops being as focused on it, which makes sense, because he wants to beat Rich's ass, bash his skull in, and bite his face off, so that makes sense psychology-wise. Especially since in Rich's desperation to protect his arm (it's his only strong punching arm ), he ball shots Sawyer early in the match. That attack focus shift is ultimately to turtle belly Sawyer's detriment because Rich has more gas in the tank and enough dog in the fight to outlast him in a brutal man-o-man brawl. I liked that psychology of the match. I also was impressed with the Ole match. I wouldn't put it above the cage match, but it was an awesome bonus of similar quality.

Enjoyed the match. I'd go ****1/4 atm. I'll watch again a few more times this week. I also liked the opportunistic arm work early that fed into Sawyer's cage slamming offense. I wasn't as crazy about how Rich stopped selling the arm as much by the end, and the finish seemed a bit too soon or possibly just not quite a hard enough head bash into the cage? But both guys really convinced me of the core thing they needed to for this match that it was a brutal, bloody fight where both wanted to win and keep going hard after each other but becoming beat down and exhausted by the end. I prefer Tully/Magnum from Starrcade 85 but I think the two matches are worked a bit differently given the given personalities involved.

During one of his post-Benoit media appearances, Luger said he was on the gas the whole time he was in the WWF. Which isn't exactly surprising now that we know Warrior tested positive in all of his 1992 tests and wasn't punished. Thanks! Finished the episode earlier this morning. Great stuff. On the Shockmaster reactions tip, I'm glad you both pointed Sid is the one who "saved" this and got the segment back on track, albeit in a a very Sid yelling way. Also, if you listen very carefully, Davey isn't the only one who curses on live TV. It sounds like either Stevie Ray or Booker T says "look at this, motherfucker." Harlem Heat and live TV in WCW, a sometimes not kid friendly combination ya'll. (around 3:46) edit: also a great reminder that Bischoff didn't even get to executive VP until 2/3rds of the way into 1993, which for some reason I always have trouble remembering, maybe since WCW from the Turner purchase until Bischoff ascendancy is just such a merri-go-round cluster. I may need to go back listening to some past BTS 1994 shows, but I think Bischoff doesn't really become the full WCW de facto head honcho until that year, since Bill Shaw doesn't get the axe until then?

massively hyped for this show, only got about 20 minutes in. I'm sure you'll keep delivering, as always. edit: Where did Luger admit that he was still doing steroids in WWF around SummerSlam 1993? His book? I watched a kayfabe commentaries timeline of WWF 1993, and I think he claimed he wasn't taking steroids then and talked a lot about how intense the drug testing was so his attitude was that because he was so much more naturally gifted than anybody else, he wasn't insecure about not taking them since if nobody was on steroids he'd still be the stand out physique .

I always enjoy these 80s episodes. First because it's a period without much online backup on the big sites, and second because it's often a very interesting time in the business as we get the transition toward the big 2 as more and more places die off but still have interesting stuff and talent lurking around. It might have been a feature of this week but kind of strange WWF seems to get so little attention. I know it's often largely a function of how much of a mess WCW is, especially after JCP goes belly up, but still kind of strange considering how WWF was still red hot at this point. I'm going to go back in to listen to usa east and west stuff, especially since Kris' amazing episode on CWF got me jazzed up to seek out that footage. Props to both Kris and Bix for consistently churning out content and it being high level. I'm running out of space on my phone, and it's always a bitch to decide which podcast I should delete and just save for future streaming because so many of them are just so good. x2 on Made in Georgia.

True. But him putting over AA is further proof that he's not exactly a heel commentator. I don't know if he's really getting them over either, though we'll have to wait and see.

Who does JBL actually successfully put over on commentary? The guy has almost stopped being the heel commentator for a good 1-2 years now. He still does it occasionally, but it's more like he's supposed to Vince's mouthpiece or trolling some fans with comments that they think Vince is telling him to say like his whole "Big Match John" schtick. I do like his Legends segments on the network, but as with almost all pro-wrestling interviews, I wish the guys were less leading. More of the 5Ws, how, explain, describe, tell me about...questions would be a good move.

Tremendous show. I'm definitely going to seek out some of that Butch Reed and Buddy Landel stuff now.

Nice 2008 list. Seconded on it being a great show. I'll give some thoughts on that possible 1988 tournament. Personally, I think Bad News Brown might very likely turn out to be the Dr. Death exposed guy from this tournament. He did have the judo background, but his knees seemed completely shot at this time. He hardly ever bumped and every time he went down, he frequently looked just strained getting up, beyond selling. Plus, even in this WWF era, he's got that gut. Vince might have protected him because Bad News was the heel touring with Savage and Hogan in 1988. Orndorff was a great call for a sleeper pick. If his arm was still in good enough shape then and his nerve injuries weren't too bad, he'd be my pick as well. Rude would be the sleeper pick if Orndorff was too beat up. Haku and Barbarian would probably be the two favorites, but good call on amateur wrestler Bret. Dynamite surely would've thrown his hat in the ring and unless he got Bradshaw or Droz level match-making, he'd probably get his ego crushed fairly early.