BrianB

Those definitely qualify as against the grain. I think you're holding how Rude shaved the stache at the end of 1992 pretty heavily against him. The last 3-4 months of Rude's WCW 1992 weren't strong though.

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I'm still working my way through the episode. It's been stellar so far. Great listener and what if segments this week. On that worst managers tip, not sure I'd put him number one, but here's one WWF manager I think you may (or maybe not?) have overlooked...

I'll try to get a timestamp later today. But definitely part of the segment where you pulled off the final reading with romantic music backdrop of Shawn's letter to Diesel about how he made him more of man. BTS ep. 39, April 12-18, 1996.

What he did in WCW was very recognizable as him. But the extent and degree was also not what happened in the WWF. So, it's a bit generous to even extend him that label, in addition to what Loss said.

That's true. Though at WCW his contract gave him bonuses based on the TV ratings, so from a narrow self-interested POV, which I think is ultimately all he cares about, it made sense for him chase ratings. Unfortunately, he killed house show business under his first run, even if the ratings were largely steady (a similar thing happened to WCW in 1993, I believe.) Nevertheless, this seems to go back to him never bothering to learn from his mistakes, as he kept doing the same things.

Yep. Or ever learning from his mistakes. He booked himself to win the world title after the Arquette disaster. He also continues to defend that move despite how it earned a small blip of publicity on USA Today, almost all negative publicity, and it cratered business numbers. (Which was easily foreseeable to anybody who remotely is familiar with the business or knows how longterm fans look at it.) It's pretty clear if you ever hear enough of Russo talking that he didn't understand wrestling fans at all, or the psychology of why they watch and what they like, and most of his philosophy is largely contradictory to what he actually does or says about what he did. It's all about him just doing what he wanted to do and what he thought was entertaining. If it was more than that, his approach wouldn't be so easily identifable and such a contanst barrage over the years of the same old drek.

It's certainly strange. I'd guess part of it had to be that Benoit was very popular with die-hard hardcore fans and sheet readers. But part of me wonders how much he just loved the whole shoot, but also worked shoot, aspect to the Nancy, Sullivan, and Benoit angles, matches, and, of course, the affair and the chatter around that. Additionally, Chris' contract was coming up, and people in the company wanted him to re-sign. Not being able to talk certainly didn't stop David Flair...

Creatively, Russo is the one I hate the most. For all the reasons others have listed. The TV was just hot garbage full of nonsensical swerves, no continuity (which makes me laugh everytime he tries to argue he's all about logic and storytelling), misogyny, lame gimmicks, fake insider BS, and going in and out of kayfabe with screwjobs and worked shoots galore. Kevin Nash's tenure in WCW was really bad too. That maybe gets overlooked in these discussions just because Russo crash TV stands out more.

Great work on the show this week. There's definitely some old school, regional territory thinking, especially about TV jobs, at play. But Bad News still strikes me as one of the worst guys about this, at least for the WWF, because, unlike Duggan, he was a heel. And looking back through what's up on profigthdb isn't doing much to alter that impression. I might just be holding it more against him because his matches were usually not entertaining or good, even if he was a legit asskicker in real life. He lost much more it Japan it seems. I think his only clean pinfall loss on TV in the US was losing to Hogan--which everyone did, except for Piper.

Yeah, entered a shortlist. No problem. I love these pods. Finally finished this one right before the 4th as I was cleaning up my apartment; another whooper of a show with way more interesting news than I'd have expected.

Just starting the show, is Jeff from the same area as Vince Gilligan? His voice and accent sound remarkably similar. No surprise Bret and Bad News went to a draw...how many times did Bad News job to anybody? Dude seemed like a Piper level douche in that regard, except less talented (maybe some of his stuff just doesn't date well...but I hate seeing this guy when re-watching this period, outside of the craziness of SNME when he faced Hogan). I guess like Piper it kind of worked out for him, since didn't he work programs with Savage later in 88?

Anybody interested in more of the surrounding circumstances and big narratives of this fight, as well as some juicy details, be sure to check out longtime MMA journalist Josh Gross' recently released book on this fight and the event. I haven't finished it yet, but it's extremely well written. It's available on amazon.

When is the next episode coming?

Nice. Any thoughts on the recent post-Starrcade batch?

Awesome guest this week. I'm early into the show, but I've got a couple thoughts for the discussions. I'm a little over an hour in and great stuff so far. Regarding the Invasion PPV, I do think a big chunk of the PPV buys for that PPV were WCW getting interested enough to check out the show. I grew up and lived in South Carolina at the time, firmly in WCW country, I was a big WCW for most of the monday night wars, but gradually converted over to the WWF more during 1999, though I still watched some periods of WCW until it's demise. Kids and people in my area were definitely interested in the Invasion show at first, even people that stopped watching, just to see what the deal was. Pretty soon I became much more on an island as a wrestling fans because that PPV and some of the TVs, especially Stephanie and the ECW/WCW alliance, but also some of DDP and Booker's handling and no big WCW stars, just killed the interest for most fans. And while I enjoyed the creative of Austin as a heel, most kids I knew were pissed off and just stopped watching. They didn't want to see the badass playing a guitar, acting second fiddle to HHH before the quad injury, and then ass-kissing Vince and Kurt. But at least where I lived, while Austin teasing a return to going back babyface was part of people's interest for the show, the big lure that got people to buy the show was the whole Invasion angle, and people in my area wondering if it'd be like the nWo invasion or an even bigger hostile company takeover type of thing. I think some of them figured that the bigger stars like Goldberg, Sting, Flair, Hogan, etc. might make a surprise debut at the PPV, then were very pissed off that that didn't happen and the PPV wasn't that good. Anyways, regarding, DDP. I do recall the Kimberly vs. Sara chatter at the time. I wasn't big into the boards or most sites at the time, though I read some and heard it there. I certainly thought that was one component in a bad storyline to debut DDP and my friends who used to watch WCW and saw Sara and either saw the angle or a subsequent part of the TV, most of them scoffed at it. (We were all teenagers at the time too. So I guess I've got the double story of WCW fans dropping off from watching wrestling and people my age getting much less into wrestling.) To me, the biggest issue was that DDP was just presented as a joke. When you thought about the stalking angle, yes, it didn't make much sense because of DDP's wife, but the rest of that promo he gave...it was all about how DDP was challenging the biggest dog in the yard and daring him to "make him famous." I hated it, yes it all fit what Undertaker said at the time and fit his gimmick and throwing his own words back at him, but at the same time, it just sent the message that DDP wasn't famous, was bush league, and needed to fight this guy to prove he belonged. And, of course, he got emasculated and constantly made to look terrible. The only people who got crushed worse were Kronik, and they arguably deserved it. BTW, wow that Stacy and Vince scoop! I'd never heard that before. Those tidbits just thrown in are part of why this show is a must-listen.

Can a mod re-name this thread now that the Starrcade tour has wrapped? Anybody else on the board still listen to these? Seems like the chatter really slowed down after some people took offense to how Jack and JP ruthlessly went at some criticism from these boards--criticism I didn't agree with and some of which, imo, was trolling--but that's neither here nor there. Over the Edge 1999 was a great pod. Excellent stuff with the Martha book excerpts, and Jack and JP really struck the right tonal balance for the show. Much more class rather than half class, half crass. I just wrapped up the Survivor Series 1991 pod, and it's another good show. The PPV not so much--I think they might have been a bit generous seeing as this is in their nostalgia sweet spot--but they're right about how a lot of the interviews are quite good, and one example of how "it used to be better." There's also some good stuff about how developed and character driven Undertaker was at this point, although that would continue to grow and improve. If I didn't live in a big city with longer commutes, between this pod and between the sheets, I'd have a really hard time listening to everything while also having a life and enjoying pro wrestling too.

Vince was probably still steaming Vader wanted to be Vader, and not the Mastodon!

Almost through the WWF segment, when was Sid's car wreck? Right after this? I thought the injuries from that and how it was more serious than they initially thought contributed to how he missed so much of 1997 WWF. (edit: just checked, the car wreck was later in June.) Before that I think Sid had some back injury, but not sure how serious that was vs. one of those injuries he played up for softball or whatever. Couldn't Vince have put the title on Vader in 1996, if he wanted to punish Shawn, and then put the world title on his new top babyface, possibly a returning Bret, at either Survivor Series or the Rumble?

The commandments section needle drop was amazing. I won't spoil the song. Les seemed to tone down as the show went along.

This is definitely one of those pods that makes me go back and watch lots of old shows. Interesting Bix mentioned heel Nash in late 1995-1996 as arguably a top 3 promo. I'll have to go back and re-visit that WWF period at some point, as I haven't re-watched it in probably....15 years? Maybe I've just got heavy nostalgia but I enjoyed Savage and Flair's promos from the start Nitro era through most of 1996, which coincides with a lot of that heel Nash period. Here's one of the standouts: Definitely. They've also worked hard not to rest on their laurels and add things to the shows, the needle drop songs, audio clips, and sound effects being one of the most notable, which they've gotten better and better at incorporating.

Great interview. Thanks for sharing.

"Exposed"? That would imply that nobody else has ever complained about any of that at any point in the past two decades. Not really, that's not what that word necessarily entails, but I take your point.

Yeah, he's not very interesting. I imagine Simmons will eventually change his mind on him. He was with Grantland from almost the start, and he has an "Art Director, The Ringer" byline, so I'm sure we'll continue to hear from him on a semi-regular basis. You may be right. It'll be unforuntate if it holds true. I know Simmons' kids are really into the product, so assuming Simmons watches too...he seems fairly discerning so I assume he';d disagree with Shoemaker a lot. If not, I imagine the traffic will eventually get him to realize that Shoemaker ever should be discarded or should be completed by someone more critical and with a stronger viewpoint. @Bix, I don't see an issue with the piece. Yes, it is completely deriative and compiliational, but if all credit is properly dished out, then it's no different than a student properly citing in a term paper. Plus, it's got the added benefit of how Shoemaker's own insight is usually not very noteworthy, so a quote compilation is more compelling.

Yeah, he's not very interesting. I imagine Simmons will eventually change his mind on him.