PeteF3

I have no idea. It was Stephen Fry's show-closing quote on an episode of QI and there was no further context (other than it was Mae West speaking about All In Wrestling.) QI is not 100% infallible but I trust Mr. Fry.

I can't think of any match-up that personifies classical European technical wrestling more. I'd put this in the Holy Grails thread but "holy grail" doesn't do this justice. But really, 1988 Germany appears to be a bit of a dead zone (neither cagematch nor wrestlingdata have results for either Magee nor Kamala working Europe in '88, and I had no idea Magee worked any non-WWF places after he was done in Stampede and All-Japan). I'm anxious to see what else is on this tape. Landy uncovered Mile Zrno vs. Dave Morgan on the same card that had Wanz-Haystacks, I'm hoping for something similar here.

"If it's All In, why wrestle?" --Mae West, supposedly.

I'm not sure anyone was ever as bred to be any specific job as Sid was to be a pro wrestler. The kind of which that doesn't really exist anymore--probably for the better, to be sure, but I can't think of anyone who's come along since who has that vibe of somebody who will kill you if you look at him wrong. There's a compelling appeal in that. Oh, and he was the one guy who even attempted to try to hold things together after the Shockmaster entrance. He deserves kudos just for that.

Of course you can. There are crap pinfall finishes, crap submission finishes, and good DQ/countout/KO finishes. This was none of the above. It was a bad KO finish as opposed to a good one. Even leaving aside the question of whether or not we should evaluate it by what the rematch may have drawn, the actual physical finish was simply not executed competently.

Yeah, that finish is terrible. Maybe if Dennison had actually stuck Kwango's foot into the beam himself, a la Finlay's antics with the ring apron in his later years, it might have worked, but here it just looks like a fluke and doesn't do anything for anybody. Dennison didn't even do anything clever so I don't get the Flair comparisons. Knockout finishes are not created equal. There's a difference between two guys and a promoter lawyering with the rulebook to come up with a bullshit finish, and Pat Roach knocking a guy unconscious with the big boot or Brummagem Bump. I don't know if the throw out to the floor was supposed to look like that but either way it was also badly executed.

Let me break down the perception of British accents from the perspective of an American. There are 3 British accents, and they are: "British" - Received Pronunciation. The Queen's English, all that. David Attenborough, Christopher Hitchens, Stephen Fry...y'know, sophisticated people. "Liverpool" - Where everyone talks like the Beatles. "Cockney" - Any accent that is not one of the other two. PAC, Rowan Atkinson, Sarah Millican, and Ross Noble? Cockney. The Gallaghers? Cockney. Ozzy Osbourne, Victoria Beckham, William Regal's "out-of-character" voice? The guys in those Guy Ritchie movies who speak without using any consonants? See above. That's it. That's the final word on the subject, with exceptions for "Scrooge McDuck" and "Lucky Charms mascot" that apply to England-adjacent countries (note: the UK, Great Britain, and England are all the same thing). Wales, as best we can tell, is a myth, akin to Narnia or Brigadoon, and not subject to further discussion.

Possibly dumb but serious question: would the average German be able to pick up on the difference? I know I and pretty much every American here couldn't possibly begin to differentiate between a German, a Swiss, and an Austrian accent...but then, there's more American (and British) media getting seen in other countries than other countries' media getting seen in the U.S. and U.K. (And I guess I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth because I've watched enough lucha and WWC and remembered enough Spanish from high school that I can pretty much tell between a Mexican and Puerto Rican accent.)

And if you look at the programs on the Catchfans Facebook page you'll find quite a few oddball countries of origin for the foreign talent in Germany/Austria. Haystacks was usually billed as an American and I swear I remember the US being listed as the home for Pat Roach as well, among others.

Goulet was always intro'd from Nice in the WWF. Why, I don't know, because 99% of shoot or worked French guys in the Americas were billed from Paris or the generic "France." The only exceptions I can recall were Goulet, Andre, and Jean-Paul Leveque in WCW who for some reason was billed from Saint-Pierre-Église which is not only relatively off the radar but a fucking mouthful to say even for the multilingual Gary Cappetta. (And there were plenty of lousy opponents that Backlund was saddled with, but Killer Khan was a student of Karl Gotch and could fucking go in an environment that allowed him to. Backlund had high praise for Khan as an opponent in his autobio, particularly how we was able to go up for the German suplex finish. It wasn't Khan, it was the WWF setting.)

I would assume that King of Prussia, Pennsylvania's favorite son Mr. Barbie was booked through Andre the Giant, since he was one of Andre's road caretakers/bodyguards.

Obviously you still need a guy who can at least meet Saint halfway on the style, which Brody can't/won't. I wouldn't want to see Saint against Haystacks or Klaus Kauroff or even Pat Roach, either. But the contrast I talked about isn't on display here--Saint's taking on a role that Jim Powers could have filled.

It's a cute Eddie Guerrero-style finish...except Walton pretty much blows the call of both the finish itself and the aftermath. "Not the way Saint would like to win it..." Kent, dude, he literally fainted to deliberately frame McManus and he's pointing to his head afterward! If he didn't care to win that way, then why'd he do it and why is he celebrating? (And it's not put over as "Saint has had enough of Mick's tactics and is going this way as an absolute last resort," either. Saint saw an opening and took it.) Believe me, I'm all for rules mattering and am of the belief that a DQ can be either a satisfying result (the heel gets what he deserves) or be the good kind of unsatisfying, the kind that leaves you desperately wanting to see a rematch, maybe with a gimmick stip attached. I don't think AEW or WWE do that kind of booking enough and tend to just skip straight to the gimmick match portion all too often. I think a total aversion to DQs really only works in an '80s UWF/'90s All-Japan-type environment where there's pretty much no gaga or interference or cheating or bullshit at all and everything is clean. Wrestling with gaga and bullshit *and* nothing but pinfalls and submissions is kind of the worst of all worlds. That said, there are plenty of occasions in all walks of wrestling all over the world where DQs are just used as a crutch because the bookers put themselves into a corner and don't want to actually job anybody and have no real intention of setting up a job to come later.

One can showcase technical skills without falling into a samey, exhibiton-y nature that Saint can be prone to. Steve Grey and Keith Haward matches never felt exhibiton-y. Sometimes with Saint I half-expect Michael Cole to leap in and seize the mic from Kent and declare, "He loves to have fun in there!" I don't want to knock Saint--on an influence basis I'm a strong advocate for him to get into the Observer Hall of Fame--Kidd may have pioneered the style but Saint is the guy whose tapes are studied. But whenever a guy is annointed as the Unquestioned King of the Style--any style--my "Oh, really?" instincts kick in and I start looking for holes in that argument. Saint's commitment to a clean counterwrestling style, to me, is contrasted and drawn out more when he's in with an actual foil.

One can showcase technical skills without falling into a samey, exhibiton-y nature that Saint can be prone to. Steve Grey and Keith Haward matches never felt exhibiton-y. Sometimes with Saint I half-expect Michael Cole to leap in and seize the mic from Kent and declare, "He loves to have fun in there!" I don't want to knock Saint--on an influence basis I'm a strong advocate for him to get into the Observer Hall of Fame--Kidd may have pioneered the style but Saint is the guy whose tapes are studied. But whenever a guy is annointed as the Unquestioned King of the Style--any style--my "Oh, really?" instincts kick in and I start looking for holes in that argument. Saint's commitment to a clean counterwrestling style, to me, is contrasted and drawn out more when he's in with an actual foil.

The late Dean Rasmussen of the Death Valley Driver Video Review went over that one way back in 2002 before the Wrestling Channel was even a thing. Obviously there are some assumptions and misunderstandings here but there was no pre-indies British wrestling authority that was immediately accessible over the Web in those days: "The mysterious Fit Finaly Indian Maiden is present in full effect. People get all warm and runny talking about Johnny Saint and God knows I love the old guy, but he was basically a Greatest Possible Matwork-based Combination of Edge and Rob Van Dam in that he is a good wrestler but he has these five or six hokey spots that he HAS to stick in every match. That out of the way, lemme say that this is the best Johnny Saint match I've ever seen, and that includes every match on the Best of Johnny Saint tape that Yohe so generously made for Schneider - as Yohe truly is a mysterious and benevolent God. THAT out of the way, let me say that Saint as face needs a strong-as-hell old style heel like Finlay to make crowd give a shit in a REAL wrestling fans giving a shit about someone getting their ass-kicked by somebody good and just kind of way. That out of the way, lemme discuss the particulars of the match. Finlay starts out of a wristlock that they both trade fun Brit-based reversals on. Fit doesn't give you a break clean, he won't shake your hand, he won't give you the indie hug. That's why Fit Finlay rules and everybody else in the wrestling world sucks. I'm banking on the fact that Dick Murdock never gave anyone a postmatch indie hug. Fit switches to an ankle lock and Saint is nifty reversing out of it - as Fit is really great at making this a match that is more than a match Saint's Edge-like Offensive spots - as Fit makes them work in context and makes the crowd pop like freaks when they would usually kinda politely applaud after Saint and his opponent get back to a vertical base and shake hands. Finlay will get the heel heat that keeps the crowd involved and helps Saint's offense pop out - it's beautifully old school, really. It isn't maturbatory scientific matwork, it becomes Saint assuming the role of the honorable alternative to the base and unscientific brawling of Finlay. Finlay sells each move like it means something - Saint's techinico tricked out offense is neater because Finlay is the British Fuerza Guererra and Finlay puts the screws to Saint to make the crowd get behind Saint and gives Saint a reason to struggle and be intense. It isn't math, it's a fucking fight. Saint avoids 1993 Rey Misterio spotmachine status by actually being masterful in his psychological end once the psychology of the match is established - looking inquisitive before reversing into his own somersaulting wristlock as if he had to find a way to counter the hold and thatto do so would require Saint to weigh a few options at hand. Second round, Fit doesn't give a fuck about trying to match wits with the technician and just starts pounding the fuck out of the old fella. The crowd goes apeshit as Finlay gets his first warning for rough tactics from the ref and Saint sells the EVIL like a king and gets the crowd squarely behind himself by taking it to Fit with a series of backdrops and Irish Whips into the corner. Fit reverses a Backdrop into a Samoan Slam for the first fall. (Indian gal talks shit to Saint between falls.) Crowd is Chanting "Johnny" so Fit realizes that they will get completely frothing if he REALLY starts beating the shit out of the babyface. This is Johnny Valentine level psychology and it works like a motherfucker here. Saint does a series of standing dropkicks to transition and hits an armbar into a roll-up for the pin. The crowd is MOLTEN as Johnny gives Fit a TASTE OF THE SPOILER by punching him in the face postfall after Finlay is all up in Saint's shit after the flashpin. Saint gives the ref the really great, "Fuck you, get him out of my face" look when the ref admonishes the face for his rough behaviour. Fit can't keep his squaw in line as she is giving him the business after the fall and Finlay would have been the greatest Memphis heel ever. Third fall is Saint completely highflying and Fit begs off with full Flair handshake offer and everything. Fit uses the stalling to get a keylock and punch to the kidneys. Saint rolls to counter but Fit makes the ropes. Fit with hyperbolic Tony Atlas chops and Saint dodges and Fit bumps like a fucking FREAK to the floor. Saint and Finlay go at it after the bell for the round sounds and the crowd is going apeshit as Finlay throws Saint over the toprope to the floor after they have a scuffle trying to make it back to their corners. When Johnny crawls back in devastated from the bump to the floor, allowing Fit to procure the armbar for the submission and Fit gets the tainted victory to loud displeasure of the crowd. Postmatch, Fit talks shit to the rubes and it's great. Fit fucking rocks. Fit vs Saint REALLY Rocks. I'm assuming they wrestled 1,000 times and I want all 1,000." On either the old 1stop or britishwrestlingarchive board, some British old-timers took a dimmer view of this match because of the contrast in weight classes beyond a simple catchweight contest where wrestlers a few pounds apart are in separate weight classes on a technicality but are essentially the same size. To them it seemed every bit as ridiculous as Conor MacGregor fighting Stipe Miocic or Floyd Mayweather fighting Tyson Fury. Saint is great but I agree with Dean and some others that some of his matches can come across as exhibition-y. The Brookside match is incredible the first time you see it but looks less and less like an actual match the more Saint you see as it's just Saint going through his routines one by one. I don't think Saint needed a strong Finlay/Breaks-level heel every single time but it's good to see him get out of his comfort zone. Rock vs. paper and rock vs. scissors are usually more interesting than rock vs. rock.

That's fine, but they don't need to be a major focus on television if they're not ready. *Fresh* talent is in some ways better than simply young talent.

It wasn't the problem, or even part of the problem. But it wasn't the solution, either.

Even within Peel's own devoted audience there eventually grew a bit of a divide between the DJ and the listener, with Peel's complaints about the 1988 Festive Fifty being filled with "white boys with guitars." I can only imagine that divide was greater in the latter days of WoS/Professional Wrestling.

Also, Bret and Shawn didn't and couldn't replace Hogan and the Warrior. They kept the lights on, and that's not nothing, but their size worked against them even in 1996. It worked, to some degree, against Benoit and Eddy in 2003. The likes of Bryan Danielson or Kenny Omega as anything remotely resembling a top guy in any company on the planet were another 20 years away. And I don't think the British and the Americans are so different in that glitz, hype, production values, a compelling story, and larger-than-life characters draw more than "workrate" (or whatever rough equivalent term one would care to use). It was true then, it was true with NJPW compared to AJPW in the '90s, and AEW's finding out that fact now. This is the farthest thing from trying to start another tired "wrestling vs. story" debate as if those two concepts are mutually exclusive, and I'd rather watch AEW than WWE, '90s AJPW than '90s NJPW, and World of Sport over its contemporary WWF equivalent at least before 1985-86 or so. But this forum is a niche of a niche--the pattern with the general public is pretty clear and consistent.

Hayes actually did French commentary in the New Generation era--I'm not sure if it was French or Quebecois--so he was fluent.

That closing segment was the best AEW angle in months, possibly the best since Starks laid out Steamboat.

Check out WWE Vault on Youtube. They've uploaded a video of Takeshi Morishima's WWE tryouts and are actively soliciting suggestions for more. Maybe Hidden Gems aren't quite dead yet.

@Matt Dand I were in a Discord the other day discussing this and I thought I'd bring it here. It was just a general discussion of move names with some other folks and Matt said this: "It boggled my mind a couple of weeks ago when I realized Kox was doing the brainbuster in the 60s (70s, sure, but not the 60s). One of the biggest quirks of the French footage was that you'd see every move under the sun (1950s ranas and power bombs like they were nothing) but even into the 80s I didn't see a standing vertical suplex, not once in hundreds of matches. I'm sure I came across this at some point but Kox had runs in Japan in 66. Could it just be that he did the brainbuster there before almost anyone else was regularly doing standing vertical suplexes?" There was some other stuff about what came first--the brain buster or the big, theatrical, standing overhead suplex, which seemed to mostly came out of the old rolling-front-chancery that you saw guys do in the '50s up through the '70s as well as the "winglock suplex" popularized/invented by Ed Virag and Sandor Szabo going way back. By the '80s, the modern vertical suplex had made its way to the UK and it's not unusual to see in the '80s WoS footage, though it was still more of a fall-ender and you didn't see it as often as it was seen in the US at the same time. Even wiry little Johnny Saint busts one out a time or two. But I've noticed that you never, ever see the back suplex in England. The double-arm? Yes, you saw that well before the vertical suplex by a lot of different folks. Gut wrench? Not as often, but it was done, sometimes closer to a tilt-a-whirl-type than the more standard kind. But the one and only back suplex I've ever seen in a World of Sport match was by Billy Robinson in his one-off TV return against Lee Bronson in 1978. The previously-subdued crowd reacts with a comparatively huge "OOOOH!" clearly having never seen it before and thinking that Bronson may as well have had his neck broken. And as Matt pointed out, neither the back nor vertical ever seemed to make its way to France. I don't know if Robinson got the move from Japan or not, but if so it's not like he was the only European working over there and bringing things back from the Far East. Power bombs are not an unusual sight in either France or England even in the 1950s--sometimes a pure modern-style bomb and sometimes more of a rollup/folding press. But that doesn't really become a thing elsewhere with myriad setups and variations until the late '80s. It's interesting to see what moves crossed over to where...and which ones didn't.

That's not really that crazy, timeline-wise. The WWF never went so far as to have a negative title reign but they certainly taped stuff weeks in advance of PPVs for years. They also just didn't do title changes as frequently as WCW nor did they have as many titles. Had they stuck to that format it's not inconceivable that they could have done the same thing.