goodhelmet

Would the idea of using a stuntman in place of Sting count? I am talking about the atrocious match against Vampiro in the summer of 2000 where "Sting" was lit on fire and fell.

Yep, if you read Flair's book, he blames Montreal on Bret and defends HBK to the death.

Maybe, but the big difference is that Angle is going to hit every signature move in one 15 minute match.

And has been mentioned in this thread, it wasn't exclusive to Harley Race. Lawler half-ass sold a brainbuster from Terry Gordy. Funk's piledrivers were no sold a plenty in All Japan. I thik that in some areas the pildriver was death, and in others it was a transtition move.

The best Angle match will be better than the worst Race match. No one is disputing that. Anyway, I guess Race had a big book of moves but it was mainly a piledriver, a gut wrench suplex and headbutts from different elevations. I sarcastically refer to Harley bringing the moves when I nominate matches in the All Japan category but it really isn't that big of a moveset, just variations of the same moves.

I would be interested to find out because this is what you said about him two years ago... Well I guess you showed me ... I have no idea what that means. Showed you what?

I would be interested to find out because this is what you said about him two years ago...

I wouldn't doubt it. To be honest, the more I watch, the less I am enjoying the hour long broadways. When watching the matches, I almost feel obligated to nominate them because of their notoriety, not because I am actually enthusiastic about the matches. I'd have to watch this particular match but I am guessing you are blaming the failure of the match on Harley. I enjoyed the hell out of the early 8os Baba matches. I think I nominated 3 or 4 of them with the title changes being particularly strong. Also, the strength of those matches is the layout, the very thing that Race has been criticized for... not knowing how to lay out a match. Maybe not but I still haven't seen a good Bundy singles match except for the Lawler minute challenge. The strength of that match was more in the stipulation playing up to Bundy's gimmick and not because Lawler is a wrestling genius who squeezed a good match out of Bundy. I think I would look to the Von Erich matches as matches against limited workers and see what kind of matches he got out of them. I also want to watch the full-length Poffo match from WWF against a Koko-type worker. Hell, didn't he work Koko in the WWF as well? I need to hunt those down in my collection.

Using footage outside of what we are grading (1980s Memphis) isn't really what the spirit of the thread is about. I could then counter-balance with the 15 or so Race matches I nominated from All Japan and say it was all hogwash. When you get multiple bad performances from Race in Memphis in the 80s, I'll take the claim seriously. This was more of a slight (and I know it doesn't always come out that way on the net) at the spurious relationships that Phil is so fond of putting forth, even if in jest. Look at the following foolish statement.... Race's performance multiple matches in All Japan in the 80s proves he was a great wrestler at the time so if Koko can't have great matches with great wrestlers, it is his fault. So that one headbutt was better than any Harley headbutt ever? Therefore, Lawler's headbutt that he used in one match is better than Race's headbutt that he used in hundreds of matches? I really hate this argument as well. This is about execution (and not even on a consistent basis), not about a wrestler's ability or psychlogy or ring ability or athleticism or whatever. The problem I have here is that if Harley Race threw an awesome punch that looked better than any Lawler punch then I could make the claim that Race had a better punch based off one punch even though Lawler consistently threw better punches throughout his career and is considered a better puncher.

OK, I don't recall you criticizing Terry Gordy for doing the same move to Lawler in the Fereebirds tag or criticizing Lawler for not selling the neck like death even though the Birds did a choice job of pounding the neck for the next 5 minutes and him giving the nonchalant tag to Idol. That shit doesn't bother me but it is a wierd point for you to make to criticize Race but not Gordy for doing the same thing. Well, I guess I have to take away my Rising Pick for Koko because he had a shit match with a legend. My problem isn't that you criticized Race, only that you chose to make a sweeping generalization based off one match for a topic (on the rise, going down) that is really about patterns, not one-off performances. Also, show me a fist drop better than most of Race's headbutts. Seriously. Not saying they do not exist but I want to watch too.

I am as big a Lawler fan as anyone but this is a stupid argument. First off, he has had much better matches than Kurt Angle. Maybe you guys can chalk that up to his better opponents... every single time. I don't buy it. I watched three kickass Race-Flair matches and it wasn't Flair's work that made me enjoy the matches. Do we just dismiss the Baba and Robinson and Jumbo matches as Race being led by a superior opponent? I'll have to watch his World Class matches to see how he worked with guys like Parsons, Adams and the VEs. Still, Race and Angle as doppelgangers is about as absurd as his stock going down in the Memphis thread due to one match. If one match is all it takes for stock to go down, then throw Dundee, Idol and Lawler on that pile because they all had a fair share of shit matches in Memphis in the 80s. Also, I don't get the talking point that he had this huge bag of moves. Yes, he had his suplexes and headbutts but he wasn't like Angle who would take moves from other wrestlers (Rolling Germans, ankle lock) in his attempt to become the Man of 1004 Holds. I know one example of match construction I heard was that Race did a piledriver on Flair in the early parts of a match. He wasn't Bob Orton . It wasn't his finisher. Guys like Gordy, Lawler, Dibiase, Funk, Jumbo etc. have all used big moves (especially the piledriver) early in a match and then used that as a focal point of the rest of the match. I don't see how Race gets criticized for it but you ignore it in other wrestlers that have your approval. Also, Tim, I have been hunting for Race matches for my set. Can you be specific and tell me what matches of his are mediocre? You throw it out there as if it is some accepted truth but what matches are we talking about? The match Bix mentioned? The Starrcade 83 main? Then, after you throw the match out there, can you tell me specifically what Race does that is mediocre as opposed to his opponent? I love what Jerry Lawler does. Two years ago, he was in my Top Ten in the Smarkschoice poll before I had even seen a third of the stuff I have discovered since. If Lawler does something a "little bit better' than Race everytime then that isn't a knock on Race so much as it is credit to Lawler. I don't understand why you feel the need to knock one person down (in this case, Race) in order to prop someone else up.

Fellas, keep in mind that those are the matches that have been nominated so far. That does not mean that we forgot or left out matches. It means that it has not been watched yet as part of the project. My likely #1 for All Japan will be Tneryu-Jumbo from 6/5/89. I haven't even nominated it yet. That doesn't mean it won't be on there. I have enjoyed the Harley-Flair feud. I know there are a couple of matches I need to watch that haven't made the list yet but here is what I wrote about the ones I watched so far...

I am sure that was referring to SLL but I thought I tried to explain what Maggie did right in the matches and feuds he did have that I think highly of. Maybe it wasn't good enough for you?

I have watched a TON of Flair over the last few months. Just for discussion sake, these are the matches that have been nominated so far for the NWA and All Japan projects. NWA Rock N Roll Express vs. Ric Flair & Lex Luger (Superbouts 4) (Need Date) Greg Valentine vs. Ric Flair (Handheld 9/24/80) Ric Flair vs. Ole Anderson (Indian Strap Match) (Handheld 11/28/81) Ric Flair vs. Harley Race (2/28/82) (AJC 68) Jack Brisco vs. Ric Flair (7/27/82) (Lynch Mid Atlantic 1.2) Ric Flair vs. Roddy Piper (9/1/82) (Lynch Mid Atlantic 2.2) Ric Flair vs. Bruiser Brody (St. Louis 2/11/83) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (8/31/83) (Lynch Mid Atlantic 3.1) Ric Flair vs. Harley Race (Cage match) Starrcade 11/24/83) (Flair DVD) Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (Georgia 6/17/84) Ric Flair vs. Wahoo McDaniel (Battle of the Belts 9/2/85) Ric Flair vs. Dusty Rhodes (Starrcade 11/28/85) (Flair DVD) Ronnie Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85) Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (Superstars on the Superstation, 2/2/86) Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (Battle of the Belts 2/14/86) Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (Cage Match) (GAB 7/5/86) (4 Horsemen) Ric Flair vs. Dusty Rhodes (Cage match) (GAB 7/26/86) (Bloodbath) Dusty Rhodes vs. Ric Flair (Pro 8/23/86) Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (1/20/87) (Flair DVD) Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (Crockett Cup 4/11/87) Ric Flair & Lex Luger vs. Jimmy & Ron Garvin (TV 6/27/87) The Four Horsemen & JJ Dillon vs. Dusty Rhodes, Nikita Koloff, Road Warriors, & Paul Ellering (Wargames) (GAB 7/4/87) The Four Horsemen & War Machine vs. Dusty Rhodes, Nikita Koloff, Road Warriors & Paul Ellering (Wargames) (GAB 7/31/87) Ric Flair vs. Ron Garvin (Cage Match) (Starrcade 11/26/87) Sting vs. Ric Flair (Clash 3/27/88) Lex Luger, Dr. Death & Nikita Koloff vs. Ric Flair, Barry Windham & Arn Anderson (Houston 6/10/88) Dusty/Nikita/Luger/Dr. Death/Ellering vs. The Four Horsemen & Dillon (Wargames) (7/16/88) (Four Horsemen) Midnight Express vs. Ric Flair & Barry Windham (Clash 12/7/88) Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (Starrcade 12/26/88) Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (Chi-Town Rumble 2/20/89) Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (Handheld) (Landover 3/18/89) Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Clash 4/2/89) Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (Wrestlewar 5/7/89) Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (GAB 7/23/89) Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (I Quit) (Clash 11/15/89) All Japan Ric Flair vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (10/9/81) Ric Flair vs. Ric Steamboat (6/4/82) Ric Flair vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (6/8/82) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (5/22/84) Ric Flair vs. Kerry Von Erich (5/24/84) Ric Flair vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (4/24/85) Ric Flair vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (Non-Title Match) (10/19/85) Ric Flair vs. Rick Martel (NWA Title vs. AWA Title) (10/21/85)

On Magnum, I put the three disc primer together in preparation for the Smarkschoice poll and I thought that his star was cut short. I think you have to look at the roles Magnum has been asked to play and how effective he was in those roles. If you start with 1983, he was II's understudy. Who else would have been as effective as Magnum in that role? No one that I can think of because he did it so well that I can't think of anyone else in that role. With II, he was the face who was beat on and abused and gathered sympathy for the team. He isn't Ricky Morton but he did a pretty damn good job of it in this team. You can give all the credit to the other guys if you want but I think Magnum has proven more than once that he could hang with the big boys in a variety of settings and not be overshadowed or become the weak link and we haven't even left Mid South yet. After the II understudy thing, Magnum graduates to NA title contender and champion. Once again, compare him and Brad Armstrong in the same role. It isn't even close who played the role better. When Magnum beats Dibiase or Reed, you believe it because he is a convincing champion with credible offense, not as some fluke guy even though he was booked that way. I think the fluke champion angle with Armstrong was perfectly a-ok and enjoyed it but I didn't see Magnum as a fluke champion and perception is king in wrestling. As for the matches themselves, I don't know what else you want from the Tulsa or the Houston match. How many lesser wrestlers would have just crumbled when the ring ropes break. Hell, it happened in Houston enough that matches were probably dropped from the list because they cannot deal with adversity. Out of the 6 Magnum matches on the set, there is a good chance that 4 of them could land in the Top 20. Magnum deserves credit for that and the people who enjoy the matches do not deserve snide insults. When Magnum hit the NWA, his role was to be a pin-up poster boy. The fact that he had a memorable feud and one of the best matches in Starrcade history is a credit to him as much as it is to Tully. If you don't like the match then I have no idea what to tell you as you clearly watch wrestling for a different reason than I do, especially if you followed the feud that led to the match. Add Cook's comments here. The next role would be the Nikita feud and if the Tully feud was Magnum as White Trash Warrior then the Nikita feud was Magnum as Xenophobic, Red State, Cold Warrior. Right now, I have three of the Magnum-Nikita matches in the NWA set with a 4th likely to follow once I watch it again.... Both matches have Magnum working on the arm to prevent the Russian Sickle. Magnum goes with what worked in Match 6 and aplies it to Match 7 and works two really smart, simple matches. Maybe we'll have to give Ivan Koloff all the credit for this too despite the fact that Magnum has already had plenty of good matches under his belt and has never failed to live up to the role the company had for him. For a month, the rednecks in the crowd and at home put thier faith in Magnum and his fight against the odds. The Match 6 heroics were real as you could tell from the crowd's reaction. Magnum didn't have the Real American theme song but you got the vibe that he was more American than Hulk Hogan ever was.

I have an Easter party I have to take my kids to but I'll jump in on this Magnum bandwagon when I get back. Magnum was what I call "getting" great. Right before his accident, he had this awesome series with Nikita Koloff who had no good matches under his belt up to that point. At the end of the feud, I can think of three matches that I would watch over and over again.