goodhelmet

I have watched the match. I know what you mean but nothing is deeper than a Ricky Steamboat armdrag. I am being facetious btw.

Um... I am the reason you have the match.

Bull$hit

I wouldn't say that entire time was positive. As a Rocker and mid-level guy, no real argument. Quitting on a championship three times? Not a positive. Throwing fits in the middle of the ring reminding you what you are watching is not real? Not a positive. Refusing to put over any new talent? not a positive. Also exhibiting the spot monkey traits usually reserved for RVD? Not a positive. Helping popularize the ladder match that was a precursor to the idiotic crap we would see a few short years later? Not a positive.

What did Loss say? He hasn't responded to this thread.

Ricky Steamboat- May you lash out with all of your might from the heavens at the naysayers and doubters. As an ROH announcer once said "You carried Mr. Fuji to a good match for chrissakes!" Also, may you give Loss 42 arm drags and three karate chops for questioning your greatness. That's all I got.

Rey Misterio - Yes, I think Rey could be a world champ and be a successful world champ as long as he was booked properly. He would have to develop a killer submission that people sold for. The announcers would have to put him over huge. He would have to be a killer... someone people respected becasue you never knew how he was going tobeat you. He has all the intangibles. Now, he just needs company support and writing. Christian- No. To this day, I have never been impressed with Christian in the ring. I don't see him bringing in new fans. I don't know how much is interviews can be improved upon since he is great on the mic, but he has also never been in the position where he has been the reason to go to the show or buy the PPV. Could he really carry a top-dog program? I don't have any faith in him. Edge- I think the WWE is nuts for trying to put this guy in a top-dog program. Like his "brother", I don;t have enough faith in him to carry the company. He also doesn't possess the mic skills that Christian has so he would be at an even bigger disadvantage. Shelton Benjamin- I think they could put the belt on him but I don't think they should at this time. I like to see Shelton work but I don't have any emotional interest in him. They really need to build him up with a defining feud (Jericho is a good start) before you put the title on him.

I'll see what Meltz has to say before I trust a PWI news story.

OK Agreed, but I have always felt the crowd can react however they want to. I may not like it, and it can alter the enjoyment of the match, but I don't fault them for it. If it is a few hecklers, yeah, then they hould be dealt with. If it is the entire audience, that is your audience. Please them. Also, while the crowd in ROH has this wierd sort of schizo vibe to it, you really should see how the company has evolved. In 2002, no one is arguing with you about the ROH crowds. In 2003 and 2004, there is still the smarkyness, but the stories become a little clearer and the lines are defined slightly better. Agreed. This is what tape trading is for. I agree with some of this but why would I be involved with a character or feud if it did not entertain me? The former and the latter should be joined hand in hand. Yes and no. If they didn't deliver good quality matches on a consistent basis or semi-consistent basis, then the product would suffer. Who cares about the result if it was excruciatingly painful to get there? I agree in the sense that if the fans are willing to except a mediocre product to get to the winners and losers, then yes, the fans are to blame. Ok, good, because the era bright before the nWo was pretty damn embarassing. I'll be back with more...

I think this ties into something Loss said earlier in the tournament. Who has done more with less? Eddie was given the ball but his only major feud was with friggin JBL. And he made the absolute best out of that situation. His matches in the last few years have been better AND smarter than anyone else in the company...including Chris Benoit. HHH has been handed the entire kingdom yet he has done NOTHING to improve business or do what is right for business. He has failed to hit the peaks of an Austin or Rock even though he has been put over both of them. He has had plenty of opportunities to help create new stars yet he refuses. You could say he lost to Batista and Orton and Benoit and a few others. Sure. He also got all of the wins back except for Batista and made it known they were just holding HIS belt. He is the sole reason RAW has become so predictable and stale. When he tapped the other night, we were shocked. He went home. Thank God!

I'll elaborate in a little while after I get back from the post office... Mick Foley walking out after the No Way Out 2000 Hell IN A Cell Ricky Steamboat winning the IC Title at WM3 Adrian Adonis getting his haircut at WM3 British Bulldogs winning the tag belts at WM2 Flair's Nitro finale speech nWo parodies the Horsemen Chris Jericho's introduction of the cruiser battle royale.

I wanted to responded to Loss's comments in depth yesterday but had too much going on (Damn trades!!!! ) so I'll do it now. Al summed it up nicely although I agree with several of Loss's points. For ECW, yes. For ROH, they played a very little part in shatterin kayfabe. It was already gone by the time they arived. Also, while it may not e your cup of tea, ROH and ECW had/has a following because they catered to particular crowds. For ECW, ys, it was the vampires, or the lowest common denominator. For ROH, purely an internet crowd, esp. since their main source of revenue is from tape and DVD sals from their internet site. Personally, I don;t think ROH plays to the LCD but that is because I don't despise internet smarkiness or the loss of kayfabe. I just adjust my paradigm to what they are setting out to do. If I am ok with it, I don't need the aura of it being real. We say the crowds reacted appropriately or inappropritately but that is the whole gist of this conversation. What is appropiate? How much is on the fans and how much is on the company? My philosophy is that the company should be aware of fan reactions in certain markets (such as Philly) and adjust accordingly. This is why you always build Flair up strong in the Carolinas or should let Christian or Jericho embrace Canada when the WWF takes Canadian tours... even when they are heels. Also, you said WCW never had a problem with fan reaction before the nWo but the product before the nWo was pretty embarassing to watch at times. I am sorry, but the Dungeon of Doom and Col. Parker and the WWF rejects taking over made it harder to watch a large chunk of the product. If I have to act appropriately to that it would be walking out of the arena or changing the TV channel. I guess that is my point. Do we accept the different crowds in Japan because of the paradigm shift? If so, why can't we accept the paradigm shift created by groups like ROH and ECW? Simply because they are American groups? That saddens me. I thought it was genuine. This would have been a much better example. Thanks! I don't think it should matter if the match is over or not. It is still a breach in kayfabe. After the MX and RN'R tore it down in a great match, you didn't see the fans giving Cornette a Standing "O". They were trying to kill him. Then when they get home at night, then they can reflect on the great match they saw. Giving a heel a Standing O during the program is just as bad as any other breach in kayfabe. Either you accept it is over or you don't. Just to clarify, was the crowd reacion inappropriate or fitting based on theactions of the company? If that is what the wrestlers are trying to elicit from the crowd, and in most cases it is, then it is not inappropriate. Inappropriate would be sitting on your hands in dead silence giving the wrestlers nothing. However, sometimes that is what they deserve. they have promos on the DVD but most of it is C-level acting stuff. The good promos would come later and even start playing out in the ring as you will see later on in your collection. You didn't express any interest in the Punk-Raven feud bu that would be an example of a feud where the promos and angles were better than the actual ring wrestling. We have discussed the commentary in another thread. That doesn't bother me at all esp. since they are just catering to their audience (the internet crowd). It also now makes me want to go find the Fuji-Steamboat match. I am assuming it was the one you reviewed... so YAY... I found it See, this is where we differ. I don't mind exhibition matches at all as long as there is fluidity and no sloppiness. Many times, there is a conflict in what I label exhibition matches. Who can win the match. It is practically built in because of the nature of wresling. I think I would call a match that has no build or backstory an exhibition... or if it is a special attraction match that would not normally be shown except for special circumstances, like the Bret Hart-Benoit Nitro match. See above. Typically there is a conflict built in since the goal of a wrestler is to get the better of the other guy. See my above explanation to see what Iemant by exhibition. This is what I meant by an exhibition match. To the crowd, they really had no emotional attachment to either guy. They really couldn;t care who won or lost. Same thing goes with Jericho and Benoit from the same card. How many times did Jericho have to yell at the crowd to react? Yet, that match gets high praise. It certainly isn't because of the fan reaction. So, since I don't cry for wrestlers and keep an emotional disconnect, does that make me less of a fan? Of course not. Different fans expect different things from wrestling. Mexican crowds react differently than American crowds. Some American crowds react differently than the Japanese crowds. You have the bloodthirsty garbage lovers. The Sports Entertainment guys. Some like the flippyfloppy. The smarky, know-it-all crowds. The analytical guys,, the shallow-accept-any-shit-thrown at you type. Yet, through it all, all would argue they are a bigger wresling fan than the next guy. This sorta answers the questions I posed above but I still think crowd reaction is contingent to the surroundings. ROH expects the fans to applaud mid-match. That is their crowd. ECW wrestlers expected the fans to act all hostile and smartass. Jim Cornette expected fan hostility and would run for cover. If the fans refuse to play along, who's fault is that? The fans who know it is fake or Vince McMahon for reminding them and changing the rules of engagement?

mICK fOLEY

Eddy Guerrero

The Rock

HOgan

Chris Benoit

Randy Savage

Stone Cold

Bret Hart

I usually try that approach. It doesn't help that I don't like the actual match. I got chills after that speech. I also loved his Nitro Finale speech. I felt real emotion there. I marked out like I was 12 again. nothing I cried

I think what I was trying to say is I missed it the first time around. I had already quit watching wresling by then. When I went back to revisit the stuff I missed, I had absolutely no emotional connection to the match. It is alot different when you see something when you are 12 and then go back and remmeber it fondly when you are older.

First of all, when I saw the match and angle, i was in my mid 20s. I was beyond that. I said I felt embarassed for her. I don't fault her for having those emotions or feeling what she was feeling. I just know that I had enough disconnect from the era and the wrestlers that I couldn't see why someone would cry. The same way I can't understand how fans would attack the heels or slash their tires.

Dude... please never use Bon Jovi songs when describing a Ricky Steamboat match again.

It isn't that Ki doesn't believe in selling, it is that he doesn't sell very well. If you are talking about the strike exchange no-sells, I think that was a bad habit alot of the ROH guys picked up from watching some bad Japanese stuff.