elliott

That's the one I needed! Awesome! Thank you!

Looks like I've got access to everything but one of the Graham matches but I bet if I keep digging I can find it. Thank you! I'm a big fan of his 80s work so I'm excited to check out the 70s stuff!

@Ricky Jackson can you recommend like 10 Bruno matches? I need to spend some time on him this go around.

Well you named Rey Jr & Ricky Morton working heel for a short period of time not meaning much. Martel has become a wrestler that many people consider a classic babyface like Ricky & Rey Jr but Martel had a heel run that wasn't a short period of time and isn't well thought of compared to his babyface work. So I was wondering if a lengthier run that wasn't well received would make a difference in your eyes. That's why I asked about Martel. I don't agree with using Tamura as a comparison. He was among the very best at all aspects of shoot style. He's more akin to a Terry Funk who could do everything than a Martel who had this disappointing aspect to his game. Maybe a better comp would be someone like Maeda who was awesome at striking, selling & building drama (all key aspects of shootstyle) but wasn't the best at working the mat. I dunno. Shootstyle is a weird comp with everything because the goals are so different and it rejects many of the tropes we discuss. Anyway, I agree with your broader point that it matters but it kinda doesnt but it kinda does. My top 2 is: 1. Terry Funk 2. Dump Matsumoto Funk is the defining jack of all trades + longevity and Dump is the defining one trick pony + extreme peak. I guess in the end it does matter because I couldn't put Terry lower than 1 and I couldn't put Dump above him. Anyway, I agree that it would be dumb to knock someone like Rey Jr for "not being a great heel" but it feels equally dumb to ignore that Buddy Rose was a great heel one day and then a beloved babyface the next. Each wrestler is different and so is each case. Its what makes this fun and frustrating at the same time

What about Martel? His heel run wasn't an insignificant length of time.

Who are some people who had really great runs as babyfaces AND as heels. Is it important to you that your top tier candidates are great at both roles?

In the 2016 project, a lot of rhetoric surrounding Lucha was how difficult it was to get into. This time there's been very little discussion at all. Who are your top lucha candidates? Are they contenders for #1, the top 10? Who are you considering for the overall top 100? Has anyone burst on the scene since the last project that you're considering? Lets get some Lucha Love going.

I think the high end stuff actually compares pretty well. Probably the top two feuds of the decades: Slaughter/Sheik vs Bret/Austin Greg/Tito vs Bret/Owen Looking a little deeper... Savage/Steamboat vs Savage/Warrior Slaughter/Backlund vs HBK/Taker Tito/Savage vs Savage/Flair Backlund/Patera vs Bret/Hennig Hogan/Piper vs Austin/Foley I feel like I really keep going for the 80s...Bruno vs Larry Z, Slaughter vs Patterson, Hogan vs Bossman, HOgan vs Savage, Hogan vs Orndorff, Backlund vs Valentine, Rockers vs Brainbusters, etc etc

Well goddamn I thought this was an awesome match. Off the top of my head its a contender for the best WWF tag match of the 80s & 90s. Loved loved loved the structure. The work itself is great. Hot crowd. Exactly what you want from a big 80s tag match. I wouldn't put it in the absolute elite tier of 80s US tags, but its not far off. Fantastic match.

Matt, I propose you OJ and I all watch that Killer Bees match

I haven't thought much about this yet but 10 years ago I would have laughed at this and said 90s WWF, but now I'm not so sure. The 80s has: Slaughter's great run from 80-84, plenty of very good-great Backlund title matches, Ken Patea''s 1980, Greg Valentine vs Tito, Savage vs Tito, Savage vs Steamboat, Hogan has a ton of good-very good matches, Andre is a God, Savage is at his peak, Piper is awesome in 80s WWF, Terry goddamn Funk comes in for a good run. While they might have stopped having 20+ minute classics after a certain point, there are still a ton of awesome sprints and brawls that are worth your time in 80s WWF. It wasn't the dead in ring promotion you'd hear it talked about in the past. I'll have to think more about it.

Just looking at youtube there are 20+ minute videos with the Islanders, Bulldogs, Killer Bees. There's a 24 minute Hart Foundation & Honkey Tonk Man vs Bruno & Jake Roberts & TIto match from 1987 that sounds pretty interesting to me. 21 minutes against British Bulldog & JYD. I don't really want to watch a 20 minute Harts vs Bulldogs match, but some of those others sound pretty cool. Its been forever since I've watched the Hart Foundation team. I know theres a match with the Killer Bees that Grimmas loves. I might look at some of this stuff.

OJ, how do you feel about the Hart FOundation team?

Bret & Yoko had really good chemistry.

I thought Montreal was by far their best match until it became the most famous match of the last 30 years.

Its one of the first few Japanese matches I saw. The old Joined in Progress video thats just the last 10-12 minutes. No context whatsoever and that crowd pulled me in immediately and then the work hooked me forever. Still one of my favorites ever.

Have you watched Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Can Am Express yet?

I won't speak for Tim but I don't think its unreasonable to slightly fault a guy if you find nearly 1/4th of his career in the middle of what is theoretically his prime to be on the disappointing side. 80-84 isn't an insignificant length of time.

Hey cool! Some of the first puro matches I saw had Kobashi and he helped hook me for life. What have you been watching?

Thats really like the classic Jumbo experience haha. The closer to voting folks watch 86-92 Jumbo, the better he does. But if the last view is that 80-84 period it's easier to see him dropping even if its just a few spots.

What have you rewatched lately? Is it a particular era that's somewhat soured you in the not quite top 10 sense?

Fuerza Guerrera & Gran Markus Jr & Pierroth Jr vs Atlantis & Mano Negra & Mascara Sagrada (7/12/91) Fantastic super face paced sequence with Fuerza & Gran Markus vs Mano Negra. Then there's an even better moment where Fuerza is just slugging away on Negra just stiffing the fuck out of him and then winds up for the big once and Negra just crushes him with a quebradora. Incredible spot. One I really hope Fuerza starts doing more. Another solid match but ultimately pretty forgettable other than one awesome spot from Fuerza. Actually two. Theres' one in the third fall where Pierroth is getting double teamed and Fuerza crawls across the ring on all fours to go help but gets hit by Atlantis and takes this big exaggerated tree falling bump. Fuerza is always doing something and practically always the highlight of the match. Fuerza Guerrera & Jerry Estrada & Pierroth Jr vs El Dandy & Black Magic & Ringo Mendoza (8/9/91) Highlights of a match we'll see in full later. Fuerza looks awesome here. Fuerza Guerrera & Kung Fu & Emilio Charles Jr vs Super Astro & Kato Kung Lee & Angel Azteca (8/16/91) Even shorter than the last match. There's one great Fuerza vs Astro section & they are the highlights of the match. Fine but too short to be memorable. Fuerza Guerrera & Nitron & Fabuloso Blondy vs Mano Negra & El Hijo del Solitario & Cachorro Mendoza (8/27/91) Hey I found one you can skip! This wasn't enough about Fuerza for him to make this interesting. He's deep background and everyone suffers for it. Fuerza GUerrera & Pierroth Jr & Jerry Estrada vs El Dandy & Black Magic & Ringo Mendoza (9/27/91) The full version of the 8/9/91 match! This is a really good match with an outstanding Fuerza performance. A bunch of great comedy spots. He works really well and differently with all of the tecnicos. We get two great and different wind up spots. But the highlight is Black Magic picking Fuerza up in the gorilla press position and Fuerza starts doing his exaggerated waving of the arms like "NOOOOO" while horizontal being held in the gorilla press. FUcking amaaaaaaazing. I loved it. This ruled. Fuerza Guerrera & Jacque Mate & El Supremo vs Eddy Guerrero & Apolo Dantes & Cesar Dantes (10/11/91) Oh shit! Eddy Guerrero! This was really good. Fuerza and Eddy worked with each other most of the way and have terrific chemistry. Fuerza is exactly the sort of person Eddy needed to be working with. Great stuff check this one out! Fuerza Guerrera & Angel Blanco & El Egipcio vs El Dandy & Mano Negra & Mogur (10/18/91) Good match but really just like a typical good lucha trios match. There is an incredible addition to Fuerza's comedy spots repertoire. Right as Mano Negra starts to hit the ropes for the Tiger Mask 619 fake, Fuerza steps up on the ropes. So when Negra completes the fake out, Fuerza slips and tumbles off the ropes. Fucking amazing. Good match overall. Nice taste of what makes Fuerza so fun in a trios match. Even when he's not the centerpiece he finds a way to have a great moment. Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (10/27/91) On the short list for single greatest performance ever. If I could only have one Fuerza match to show someone to convince them that he was an all time great this is the one. Fuerza Guerrera & Blue Panther & Pierroth Jr vs Super Astro & Atlantis & Angel Azteca (11/8/91) Truly spectacular match. I want to highlight off the top that while Fuerza is his typically awesome self in this match, this is rare occasion where someone else is the clear star. Blue Panther is mindblowingly great here. He and Astro work a truly spectacular opening section and this match doesn't let up from there. Fuerza is awesome exchanging holds with Azteca and another plus performance from him in general. But this is a rush out of your way to see it for the Blue Panther vs Super Astro matchup. Fuerza Guerrera & Emilio Chalres Jr & La Fiera vs El Hijo del Santo & Misterioso & Mascara Sagrada (11/29/91) Fuzera does another awesome spot where he's standing on the ropes in the corner and Emilio runs over and kicks it in frustration leading to Fuerza taking a bump into the ring. I fucking love that spot. Overall I thought this was an awesome match. Great contrast to the last technical one. This is a total brawling match that ends up with Fuerza bloodied. This is to heat up a Fuerza vs Misterioso singles match and hot damn it does its job because they are awesome together in this, it is violent and has crazy heat. Great shit. Check this one out. Fuerza Guerrera vs Misterioso (12/6/91) I thought this was pretty spectacular. Clean title match so its another great example of Fuerza trading submissions and working a mostly clean match. He still does his top rope crane kick air ball, but he generally does less schtick. He also makes up for the crane kick air ball when he hits a fucking incredible flipping senton from the middle turnbuckle to the outside. I love the reversal of the camel clutch by FUerza taking one of Misterioso's fingers in his mouth and just biting the shit out of him. Misterioso is great selling it. Awesome spot. Funny but brutal at the same time also subtle at the start and then something that reaches the entire arena. SMall thing but kind of a genius little piece of pro wrestling. Fuerza Guerrera & Blue Panther & Emilio Charles Jr vs Volador & Misterioso & Blue Demon Jr (1/10/92) That is a rudo dream team right there. Goddamn. Good match. Fuerza is his typical self. Maybe a little toned down on the comedy but he's got an amazing Hashimoto/Ogawa like moment with Misterioso towards the end where they're just going at each other. Good stuff. Fuerza's ability to switch gears is so impressive. Fuerza Guerrera & El Satanico & Blue Panther vs Vampiro & Ultimo Dragon & Octagon (1/24/92) WHat the fuck is this shit. Put our best 3 against our worst 3 or what JFC. Octagon breaks his neck in the first fall and they check to make sure he's ok by moving his head around a whole bunch. Good lord. Wow this turned out quite a bit better than I was expecting. Its a short brawling match with the Rudos working in overdrive. Octagon seems extra motivated after his brush with death in the first fall because he does a good job bringing it in the 2nd and 3rd. That rudo team is really idiot proof because this is better than you'd expect. Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (1/31/92) Classic performance from Fuerza. Long title match with Fuerza reaching deep into his big bag of tricks to keep this great. I enjoyed the Konnan vs Cien Caras stuff at the end for what it was to be honest. Definitely one to watch to highlight Fuerza's strenghts. Fuerza Guerrera vs America (3/8/92) Just brief clips. Would like to see the full match at some point. Anyone know if it exists? Fuerza Guerrera & Emilio Charles Jr & Jerry Estrada vs Mano Negra & Atlantis & Mascara Sagrada (4/10/92) This is one to watch. Fuerza is in full God mode. The match is mostly about Fuerza vs Mano Negra, but our man gets into it with everyone and looks fantastic. Emilio is fucking killer in support and this is a really terrific match. Just classic schtick. Tons of great spots. Wicked pace. Fuerza has the crowd just in the palm of his hand the whole time. Awesome stuff. Fuerza Guerrera & Jerry Estrada & Jerrito Estrada vs El Hijo del Santo & Octagon & Octagoncito (8/14/92) Holy shit this was awesome. I was kind of just expecting a fun little workrate match maybe with some good comedy because of the minis and that's my American wrestling bias come into play. The first fall is worked pretty clean and ends with Santo high fiving little kids in between falls 1 & 2. Then this turns into a crazy brawl. Estrada is stomping & choking Santo in front of those same little kids who are trying to kick Estrada away from their hero. Later Fuerza & Jerrito double team Octagoncito. In the 3rd fall Santo hits a beautiful Santo dive on Estrada as close to those kids as possible without actually hitting them. Fuerza vs Octagon is fucking magic as usual. This was a total blast and definitely exceeded expectations. Fuerza Guerrera & Cien Caras & Mascara Ano 2000 vs Perro Aguayo & Konnan & Octagon (10/18/92) Really fun brawling match. There are some awkward moments, but its Konnan so thats gonna happen. But everyone is working hard and this is worked at a good pace. Fun stuff. Fuerza Guerrera & Blue Panther & Espanto Jr vs El Hijo del Santo & Octagon & Love Machine (4/25/93) Really good match overall but drags at times in the 3rd fall. Santo is probably the star of the match but our man Fuerza looks awesome as usual. A ton of great schtick at the start of the match that culminates in a hilarious sequence between Fuerza & Blue Panther where it looks like they're going to start brawling with each other and then go for a big hug. Fun stuff. Fuerza Guerrera & Blue Panther & La Parka vs Lizmark & Eddy Guerrero & Love Machine (6/25/93) Really hot match. Starts off brawling and then transitions to more hot moves and sequences. Fuerza looks king sized working with the young athletes especially. Awesome watching Fuerza keep up with the next generation and look incredibly sharp. Everyone looks great and this is one to go out of your way to see. Fuerza Guerrera & Blue Panther & Fishman vs El Hijo del Santo & Eddy Guerrero & Love Machine (7/23/93) Wow this was even better than I remembered. This is the famous match where Love Machine puts on the Santo mask (that he takes from a little kid) and beats up Eddy Guerrero causing Eddy to turn on Santo. Fuerza is a completely background player here. The 5th most important guy in the match. But when he's in he looks like a totally elite performer. But the real positive just isolating Fuerza's performance is that he doesn't go so over the top that he takes the attention away from he main storyline they're trying to tell. So that's another point in his favor. But this is really about Love Machine, Eddy, Santo & Panther and they all look great. The switch flipped so fast for LoveMachine. He was pretty blah in the April match and here he looks as great as all these other all timers. Fuerza Guerrera & Love Machine & Heavy Metal vs El Hijo del Santo & Blue Panther & Perro Aguayo (7/30/93) Short brawling match. Good and heated but not much to learn from it. Fuerza Guerrera & Love Machine & Heavy Metal vs El Hijo del Santo & Blue Panther & Octagon (8/6/93) Spectacular first fall. Everyone looks great. Fuerza & Octagon match up as usual and its awesome as usual. Great fast pace back & forth usual stuff from them but they look sharp. Fuerza hugs Octagon and then just blasts him with a headbutt. Great spot where Love Machine takes a dropkick that sends him to the outside but he rolls right into Fuerza and they both tumble to the floor. Great little injection of comedy. 2nd fall is your typical short rudo comeback. Fuerza manages to hit Octagon in the nuts twice. So it was good shit hahaha. Third fall has rudos continue the beatdown. Santo takes a double nut shot fom Fuerza & Love Machine that was pretty great. This was a total blast.

Oh this is cool! Thank you!

I think that's a fair assessment. 1992 WCW was so fucking loaded with great wrestlers having great years that Barry might get a little lost in the shuffle but when I think about it, Barry's got some real highlights that year.

I think 1992 has always been viewed generally very positively for Windham.