elliott

I really want to see a huge fan of both of them make the case for FLair and then a huge fan of both of them make the case for Kobashi. That sounds like a fun pair of articles.

I think it would just be a bunch of chops in between Flair forcing him to do a million gorilla press slams. Although I can picture Kobashi doing his rolling cradle, Flair kicking out, standing up and doing the Flair Flop and I'm kinda back in on them matching up if only for that one spot i'm 1000% certain would happen.

Lawler is probably the GOAT against broomsticks or non-wrestlers. The difference between how Lawler worked as a face vs a heel is distinct while Hansen was always Hansen (not saying this is bad thing, Hansen should've only ever been Hansen). Lawler is also a good comedy wrestler. while also having some of the great violent matches ever.

Is there any existing footage of Tully from the 70s?

This is one that still makes me stop and think and I'm not totally sure I'll ever feel truly comfortable saying one is better than the other.

Every time I look at this, its tied. 2-2 4-4 6-6

King of the Death Match vs King of the Death Match. Who you got?

Haha sorry. Its just a weird list becuase you're right about the old school shooters point and then there's like Mil Mascaras & Tiger Mask & Fujnami. Sayama at least did UWF and Shooto so you can kinda make an argument for him. And Inoki had the Ali fight and all the different style fights. It makes the lack of Londos & El Santo even weirder when they would go on to add Hogan & Flair. Its just like I have no idea what to make of that list. Everyone should just let Steve Yohe make the HOF hahaha

Famous shooters like Mil Mascaras and Tatsumi Fujinami

Fuerza Guerrera & Espectro Jr & Espectro de Ultratumba vs Mano Negra & Gallo Tapado & Misterioso (2/22/91) Fuerza appears to bite Tapado's fingers. So that rules. Rudo brawling to start. They look good. I like the Espectros. 2nd fall has Fuerza doing more mind games. Begging off to get the stupid tecnico's to turn their backs on the Espectros who just jump them from behind. Fuerza is the best ever at switching gears from cowardly begging to just blasting someone in the face. Some tremendous comedy spots lead to the tecnico's comeback. They do the spot where Espectro Jr thinks he doing a repeated arm breaker to Mano Negra but his back is turned and hes doing it to Ultratumba. The crowd goes nuts. Fuerza's reaction when he sees is incredible. Good stuff. 3rd fall starts hot and Fuerza takes a bump through the ropes towards the post that looks nasty. Fuerza gets isolated & destroyed by the tecnicos. Triple teamed, mask ripped. Beaten and humiliated. When Fuerza gets his comeuppance, its soooo satisfying. Really enjoyable one. Fuerza Guerrera vs Gallo Tapado (3/1/91) Absolutely fantastic title match. Lots of great mat work, trading submissions. Fuerza is so charismatic in these singles matches. He just looks like one of the best workers on the planet. There's an amazing spot in the 3rd fall where Fuerza is on the outside of the ring & Tapado goes for a dive but Fuerza runs out of the way but ends up posting himself. I'm sure he's done it before and will do it again, but I haven't seen it yet in this project so for now its a fresh incredible, hilarious spot. Awesome stuff. Fuerza Guerrera vs Gallo Tapada (Mask vs Mask 3/8/91) This starts with Fuerza repeatedly hitting Tapada with a live chicken. So it starts as the best match of all time. Fuerza follows up the chicken attack by just posting Tapada into oblivion. Quick comeback from Tapada and a mask rip and the match hasn't even officially started yet. I don't want to spoil the match by repeating any of the great spots or sequences, but this is a classic match. Fuerza looks amazing. Its a mask match so hes' more serious business Fuerza and keeps the comedy on the back burner until the very end and then we get some fun spots. Great shit. Fuerza Guerrera & MS-1 & Vampiro vs El Dandy & Pirata Morgan & Octagon (3/22/91) We couldn't trade Vampiro for like Blue Panther and have the greatest rudo team of all time? Kind of excited because this is 4 of the best ever and then 2 terrible wrestlers....now that I've watched it all I can think is the old Dennis Green meme. They are who we thought they were. Everyone in this looks awesome, even Octagon because he's matched up with Fuerza. Then there's Vampiro who looks like absolute garbage. Fuerza is amazing in this and gets some time with each one of the tecnicos. MS-1 is awesome and he deserves a closer look at some point. Fuerza continues to look like one of the best wrestlers alive. Fuerza Guerrera & El Satanico & Kung Fu vs Octagon & Ringo Mendoza & Pirata Morgan (3/29/91) Fun match. On the shorter side and there's a lot of Kung Fu in the first half. Satanico basically sleep walks through the first half of this and then comes in for a couple of great sequences. Fuerza is busting ass the whole time. WHen he's not in there, he's cheating to help make Kung Fu more intresting. We get some nice athletic sequences and a crane pose. Fuerza continues to be the standout performer in most of his matches.

There's a pretty decent amount of Wahoo out there from the looks of things. It seems like his mid 80s Crockett run where he's well past his prime but still pretty awesome is what we have the most of, so we don't have the full picture you'd hope for. But you could say that about a lot of nominees.

Damn!

Can someone easily breakdown the La Parka-LA Park timeline

Fuerza Guerrera & Jacque Mate & Pierroth Jr vs Octagon & Volador & Cacharro Mendoza (9/28/90) Disappointing match overall. The Fuerza vs Octagon matchup in the first fall didn't really hit the mark this time. Fuerza was paired up with VOlador in the 2nd fall and it was much better. Rare one to skip Fuerza Guerera & El Hijo del Gladiador & Ponzona vs Mando Guerrero & Mogur & Huracan Ramirez Jr (11/2/90) Match starts better than our last one right away with Fuerza really riling up the crowd. HUGE Fuerza chant. And he runs into break up a submission. Hes inserting himself into the action more early in this one and the match is more compelling for it. After a hot opening, Fuerza kinda took a backseat and honestly the match started to fall flat for me. Then the 2nd and 3rd falls everyone really stepped it up and this turned into a really fun match. Pretty hard hitting with great heat and some good comedy from the heels. They really heat up Fuerza vs Ramirez Jr and thats yet another match I'd like to see. Good stuff. Fuerza looks great. Vicious, crazy athletic and great comedic timing. Fuerza Guerrera & Ponzona & Espectro Jr vs Octagon & Mascara Sagrada & Huracan Ramirez Jr (11/9/90) This one is a truly spectacular top tier Fuerza performance. He is both the best version of Jim Cornette and Dennis Condrey all at once. Absolutely outstanding. Terrific match all around but Fuerza is something else here. Fuerza Guerrera & Ponzona & Jerry Estrada vs Octagon & Mascara Sagrada & Huracan Ramirez Jr (11/16/90) Fun brawling match on the shorter side. Fuerza looks great again working his one man Midnight Express style. I was recently complaining about how all of these matches are so long which slows down my project. Then I see a 13 minute match and I end up annoyed because the last few matches were so good. Good stuff. Fuerza Guerrera & El Verdugo & Hombre Bala vs Octagon & Javier Cruz & Huracan Ramirez Jr (11/23/90) OK match that was more about teasing Fuerza vs Huracan but giving you the other 4 which isn't really what you want. Although Verdugo & Hombre Bala look solid. Fuerza Guerera & Pierroth Jr & Jacque Mate vs Huracan Ramirez Jr & Octagon & Kato Kung Lee (11/30/90) This one is the full Fuerza experience. He spends much of the first fall hiding and playing chickenshit. Then finally he blindsides Octagon and beats the ever loving hell out of him. Then he works an awesome back and forth with Huracan Ramirez. And some great comedy spots where he eats shit in spectacular ways. Crowd is insanely hot for everything he does. Just an awesome performance. Fuerza Guerrera & Emilio Charles Jr & Jerry Estrada vs Octagon & Huracan Ramirez Jr & Volador (12/7/90) Cool start as Octagon & Huracan work together to take the pain to Fuerza who has spent all of his time recently antagonizing both guys. Later in the first fall Fuerza & Octagon has an awesome segment together. Basically working their greatest hits but it rules and still feels fresh. 2nd fall he works with Huracan who just goes straight to mask ripping. Another hot segment with Octagon ends with Ramirez dropkicking a flexing Fuerza from behind and sending him comically bumping to the outside. Screwy 3rd fall with Octagon accidentally fouling Ramirez thinking it was Fuerza leading to Fuerza putting them both away. Terrific stuff to advance the story & rivalry. Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon vs Huracan Ramirez Jr (Mask vs Mask vs Mask 12/14/90) This is pretty hilarious booking. Rudo Fuerza beats tecnicos back to back to save his mask and force them to battle it out. Fuerza looks good (the way he gets into the submission to beat Ramirez is bonkers) but you'd rather he and Ramirez just had a singles match. Fuerza Guerrera & Pirata Morgan & Mascara Ano 2000 vs Sangre Chicana & Octagon & Ruben Juarez (1991) I got excited when I saw Sangre Chicana's name, but this was a pretty blah match. Fuerza vs Octagon is the absolute highlight here and as usual look really good together and crowd is hyped for them. Everything else here I found forgettable. Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (Super Libre - 2/1/91) Octagon is on the ground selling his knee before this even starts allowing Fuerza an opening to start the match. FUerza beats the fuck out of Octagon and there's some heel ref shenanigans leading to a great spot where a woman walks up to the ring and yells at Gran Davis for interfering. Octagon just won't sell but Fuerza is incredible bumping around for all of Octagon's opponent dependent stuff. Fantastic low blow spot where Octagon gets distracted by the ref and Fuerza just kicks a field goal. Fuerza ties Octagon's little head tassle to the top rope and beats the hell out of him. Running him from turnbuckle to turnbuckle while his head is still tied to the rope. Fucking gnarly. Fuerza goes to the well once too often and Octagon pushes him over the top rope and Fuerza goes to the outside but lands on his feet, turns around and flips off the audience. SWOON. What a spot. OMFG I loved that. The ref helps Octagon get free and he's just a dead person at this point. Fuerza crotches Octagon on the post and I've never seen less of a reaction to a crotch shot before. So Fuerza decided fuck it I'm just gonna bash his goddamn head in. While Octagon is rolling around on the ground, Fuerza gets into an argument with an elderly woman in the front row. God this is awesome. Octagon's transition back to offense is disappointing. He walks up the aisle a bit to catch his breath, casually gets back in the ring and just starts doing armdrags. Good lord. This is a real tale of two performances. Fuerza quickly ties him up for the 2nd fall. 3rd fall starts and Octagon is selling like he's been in a war. They go to the finish like right away so the 3rd fall reallly lacks the drama youre looking for in a match like this. Well this was weird. Fuerza is fucking amazing carrying this thing doing literally everything interesting in the match. Octagon really lives down to his reputation though. Put Fuerza on this night in with a more capable opponent and we could've had an awesome match. Fuerza Guerrera & Espectro Jr & Espectro de Ultratumba vs Anibal & Mano Negra & Gallo Tapado (2/8/91) Fun match. Sort of your standard affair. Tecnico's work a more beautiful clean style. Rudo's are rougher with a mix of comedy spots. Fuerza is exactly the sort of person you want in a run of the mill match like this because he has so many tricks in his back pocket. Fun match but ultimately a forgettable one.

I'm wondering if someone at some point can make a comprehensive case for Low-Ki. I know the rap is that he had a bad attitude and it prevented him from reaching his potential. I'm kind of curious of an analysis of the bad as much as the good. I've seen a lot of the good and I'm a huge fan of it. I'm more likely to vote for Low-Ki than not and there aren't many wrestlers from the last 20 years I'd say that about.

Fuerza Guerrera vs Pantera II (5/4/1990) Absolutely fantastic match. If you want to see Fuerza in a classic title match built around fantastic matwork and wacky submissions, this is exhibit #1. Must see match. Fuerza Guerrera & Huracan Ramirez Jr vs Javier Cruz & Emilio Charles Jr (Relevos Increibles 5/18/90) I'm still reeling from that last match but this was fun for what it is. Short and sweet. Like 6 minutes all action. Fuerza Guerrera & Jacque Mate & El Hijo del Gladiador vs Misterioso & Mascara Sagrada & Justiciero (6/22/90) Starts with Fuerza beating up Mascarita Sagrada and thats fun. Leads to a great Mascarita payback spot later in the match. Shorter than usual trios but hot and Fuerza looks strong as usual. Fuerza Guerrera & Jacque Mate & Hombre Bala vs Octagon & Kung Fu & Super Muneco (7/27/90) I liked this one a lot. They're starting to heat up Fuerza vs Octagon and they're great together. Fuerza actually lands a cranekick. And he really taps into is vicious side against Octagon. This one is also noteworthy for the fantastic workrate comedy sequences between Fuerza & Super Muneco. Every bit as spectacular as you'd hope. Fuerza Guerrera & Jacque Mate & Pierroth Jr vs Octagon & Misterioso & Justiciero (8/31/90) This is another just sort of standard trios match. Fuerza & Octagon take more of a back seat early in the match but as it goes on they take more of a starring role and the match gets more interesting and more violent as they go. Fun but sort of forgettable. Fuerza Guerrera & Jacque Mate & El Hjo del Gladiador vs Octagon & Msterioso & Justiciero (9/7/90) Just clips of the finishes of the falls. Can't tell anything from this unfortunately. Fuerza Guerrera & Ponzona & El Hijo del Gladiador vs Octagon & Super Astro & Volador (9/14/90) Terrific match. You see the names and kinda think "Oh, I hope FUerza & Super Astro pair up" but just assume its going to be more Fuerza vs Octagon. NOPE! Fuerza vs Super Astro baby and it is sufficiently mind blowing. Tremendous 1st fall and a spectacular finish to the match. RUdo beatdown in the middle is good but you just wanna see these 6 turn up the volume and go balls to the wall. What we get of that fucking rules. PLLLLEASE let there be a Fuerza vs SUper Astro match.

Fell behind on this but trying to jump back on the saddle. Fuerza Guerrera & Jerry Estrada & Pierroth Jr vs El Dandy & Angel Azteca & El Texano(3/2/90) Fun trios match becomes scary when the top rope snaps off and Pierroth takes one of the nastier spills you're gonna see. There's good stuff around this though. The first fall is mostly really fun until the rope break and our man Fuerza looks great as usual. Please lord send me a long match against El Dandy. Fuerza Guerrera & Bestia Salvaje & Espectro Jr vs Octagon & Kung Fu & Pantera II (4/20/90) Solid match that is meant to heat up an upcoming Fuerza vs Pantera singles match. Rudo team is really good here and make this enjoyable. Pretty standard stuff. Fuerza Guerrera & Espectro Jr & Jacque Mate vs Ringo Mendoza & Pantera II & Javer Cruz (4/29/90) I loved this one. Another match meant to heat up Fuerza vs Pantera in a singles. More of a brawlng match than the last one. Fuerza looks absolutely vicious in the first two falls and is really directing traffic and this is all about him beating the fuck out of Pantera II. 3rd fall has some fantastic Fuerza comedy spots. Just a dynamite performance. Match like this is the reason I wanted to take a closer look at Fuerza. This wasn't on the 1990 Yearbook and doesn't even have a thread on PWO but it is a fantastic Fuerza performance that fans of his should check out.

I will have specific recommendations soon, but I don't want to ruin the surprise Grimmas included one in the Watch Party that MattD uploaded without watching it beforehand (I think my comment prior to seeing it was "Matt uploaded it so thats good enough for me) and I thought it was really impressive. 10/1/82 was the date.

From what I've seen I've really enjoyed his work against Chavo Guerrero.

Why was there was no Onita on the DVDVR 80s AJPW set? Footage availability when the set was made?

Other than Dump Matsumoto, Onita is probably the best pre-match and post-match performer ever

I said it earlier in the thread but I absolutely love his non-death match work. Childs, I would recommend revisiting this one against Tarzan Goto from 1991 if you're in the mood for just "regular" Onita. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az3oJslfoug Its easy to forget how quickly he developed the style. Barbed wire matches by December 1989 (that Jerry Flynn barbed wire tag blows my mind). Exploding matches by August 1990. I'm happy with the way it worked out but I do kinda wish we got even more stuff like the big Aoyagi matches or that Goto match. I just love the Onita from the Tenryu tag. I also like to imagine what wouldve happened if Maeda called his bluff for UWF2.0

Thank you. ESPECIALLY if folks are ranking him top 10 I think he deserves more talk than he's gotten

Not as much discussion as I'd expect about Taue considering he's a lot of people's favorite pillar and he seems like a top 50 lock for most people. I'd love to see someone do an in-depth breakdown at some point in the next 5 years.

Can someone recommend like 10 Jun Kasai matches?