S.L.L.

Do you have a point or are you just stringing together random sentences? Tom used coked up Gino Hernandez promos and the infamous "Juvi's Juice Bar" as measuring sticks for how dilated a really drugged up wrestler's pupils were and then said Michaels' were more dilated. My point is, who cares and why? http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5424984 The why part eludes me. Curiosity, maybe? Does he really need a reason?

I'm glad Resident Evil responded to my post. Nobody who claims that wrestling is MMA and vice versa ever seems to explain how they came to that conclusion, and I'm glad he outlined all his reasons, because it really does give a great illustration of how tenuous the comparisons are and how backwards and flawed the logic used to make the conclusions are. I don't know if he'll realize it, but there you go. Anyway, if he's right, I'd like to take this time to prove that "The Wizard of Oz" is pro wrestling. The makers of The Wizard of Oz tried to draw a paying crowd. A number of alterations were made to the plot of the book to help draw the crowd. The Wizard of Oz used good guys and bad guys, moreso than other sports. Everyone wants to be the best. Dorothy's friends were all about self improvement. And Dorothy and the Wicked Witch kept feuding over those coveted Ruby Slippers. Not a title, strictly speaking, but then the UWF didn't have titles, and if you consider MMA to be pro wrestling, you would have to consider the UWF to be pro wrestling. Same goal that The Wizard of Oz had. And, you know, every business ever. I don't know what kind of athletes the cast and crew of The Wizard of Oz were. They probably don't compare favorably to wrestlers or mixed martial artists. That said, all very motivated people, competitive, similar mindset. As has been noted, wrestlers aren't supposed to get hurt. Neither were Buddy Ebsen or Margaret Hamilton, but it happened on the set of The Wizard of Oz. Things can have common roots without being the same thing. That's a pretty big difference. If wrestling went legit, it would become MMA. That doesn't mean it would still be wrestling. MMA is a game, and as with any game, it's defined by it's rules. It's rules, as you may or may not have noticed, are very different than pro wrestling's "rules". It's necessary for me to throw those quotation marks in there because pro wrestling is not a game, and therefore is not defined by rules. It's a genre of fiction. It belongs to an entirely different categorization of stuff. Like Law & Order and actual police work. Or MMA and The Wizard of Oz. Sure you can compare the two. There may even be real, valid comparisons, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

It's long been rumored, but the autopsy says the official cause of death was a cocaine overdose, and there's no reason that I can see to doubt that's true. Both were high as kites. Source isn't really significant here. Maturity? Shawn Michaels has one of the worst Peter Pan complexes this side of Michael Jackson. I don't know what this means or what it has to do with anything, but the point TomK was trying to make was that Shawn was stoned out of his gourd at SumerSlam '02. Not really about his entire history of drug abuse, just that match.

Well, technically, it's the other way around. MMA was the next step in the evolution of worked shoot wrestling. It's that pesky historical connection between the two that almost justifies calling them the same thing, but then you just look at one next to the other and realize they aren't.

Prove it. Seriously. I want to hear you back up this claim. Everybody says it, everybody takes it for granted as being true, nobody ever stops to consider what it means. Nobody ever stops to consider if it's really a valid claim. I'm opening the floor to you, Mr. Evil nee Pegasus. Prove it.

Ummm....what is this responding to? The post right before mine. Of course HBK still does painkillers and steroids. I guess that's my point. I think TomK's point wasn't that he was on "a little" painkillers and steroids. He compared him to Gino Hernandez. That's not "a little" bit of drugs...and incidentally, it did kill Gino. And I'm still not sure what the "money mark" thing was about. I don't think that was the connection TomK was trying to draw between Michaels and Violent J. Also seems to me that taking comical amounts of drugs to blunt pain isn't exactly tough. I realize "tough" and "crazy" often go hand in hand, but let's not think they're the same thing. Let's see a wrestler work a full major league schedule completely clean. That would be "tough". Still would be crazy, probably even more so. But that would be tough.

Ummm....what is this responding to?

The overwhelming connection between American Gladiators and pro wrestling, what with their shared history (American Gladiators aired after WWF Superstars for much of my youth), shared talent (Hulk Hogan, Rico Constantino, and Leila Ali's father was a mixed martial artist of some note and a major influence on Dusty Rhodes), and shared aesthetic (American Gladiators emphasizes showmanship, which is something that exists nowhere in the universe outside of pro wrestling), clearly suggests that American Gladiators is pro wrestling, just as MMA, boxing, roller derby, competitive video gaming, figure skating, film, television, music, amusement parks, and anything else that might gain me and my ridiculous hobby some degree of public acceptance are.

What's the distinction between Most Valuable Fighter and Most Outstanding Fighter?

Woah, woah, woah.....Dave's doing a workrate award for MMA? I mean, I knew he was mixed up, but...damn. Still, step in the right direction, separating the two.

I'd like to humbly request access to the downloads folder. PM'd you. -- Loss, 12/25

I'd definitely be up for that.

I don't know if anyone is saying that Viscera was good from jumpstreet. I doubt you'll find anyone who will tell you that he was the better worker in MOM... And I don't think that was just people popping for Mo saults. I think I had my wires crossed. Bix wrote "Really a depressing casualty of the smarkier types having it in for tall guys, fat guys, black guys, and tall, fat, black guys, as well as having overly narrow views of what good wresting is", and well, that doesn't specifically mean he was always good, but that's how I read it for whatever reason. The mention of his Survivor Series '94 match seemed to suggest that, but I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth.

It should be noted that monsters who only sell might be worse than either of those other two things. Haven't watched TNA in a while, but Abyss always oversold to the point that his monster heel gimmick felt more like a rib than anything. Great Khali doesn't sell like Vader/Yoko/Henry/Umaga/Bigelow/JBL/Foley/et al, but would rather watch his stuff than Abyss expecting me to buy into his monster heel stuff when pinballing for Sonjay Dutt or whatever. Pretty widely accepted that Morishima's biggest weakness as a worker is how he oversells for juniors. Not a huge Brody fan, but would rather watch Brody stiff guys and refuse to bump than watch Mori flop around for Kotaro Suzuki.

I'm not necessarily saying it wasn't warranted, just saying that was the attitude. My main question is why, if Frazier was always this good, he's only now getting praise for his work then. I assume it's because of his strong WWF association, which is certainly warranted to some extent, but if he's getting praise now for work then, he couldn't always have been booked into crappy matches. I don't doubt that he did good stuff in Memphis, but was it that good to make up for a bad WWF run, or was his WWF run not so bad? I'm not sure I'm following the logic here. EDIT: Also, somebody really should put together a DVD of the three weeks that Watts was booking the WWF, because even as a dopey kid who didn't know Watts from Adam, I could tell that was some good fuckin' TV.

Mabel/Big Daddy V/Viscera: I've been digging him lately. Kinda dig that they've given him little trappings of one One Man Gang, Vader, and Abdullah to try and create the ultimate fat guy wrestler. It's been a long time since I've seen his stuff from before his current run. I was checking Wikipedia, because I wanted to make a comment about how well he's doing this late in his career, but it turns out he's only 35. Not that that's so out there. There are plenty of guys who seem like they've been around forever but are actually still pretty young because they hit it big early in their careers (Sean Waltman immediately jumps to mind). Still, that means he was only 22 when he started showing up on my TV regularly, and he's been there pretty consistently since then. When Bix and others say he was good during that time, I'm inclined to believe them. That said, I kinda wonder why this appreciation is such a recent development. With regards to the internet's bias against tall/fat/black guys, I kinda think none of those are as strong as we often make them out to be. TomK made these points a while back to a particularly dense fellow on DVDVR: I know there aren't any blacks listed in there, but Ahmed Johnson got a lot of support from the smark community going into his WWF run, though that faded over time. I think if there's a bias working against 90's Mabel/Viscera, it's anti-WWF. He hadn't been working very long when he got signed to the WWF, and I think being some guy who didn't "pay his dues" or "bust his ass for the boys in the back" who got hired by Vince for being a big fat dude got certain people's panties in a bunch more than anything. Kinda get the feeling that if he, say, got the "Shockmaster" gimmick instead of Ottman and feuded with Vader, or if he was shipped off to Japan to be a Misawa opponent or an Onita opponent, people might have had a better opinion of him, even if he jumped to the WWF later. "Iron Fist" Clive Myers The only match of seen of his was against a 14-year old Davey Boy Smith, and he was awesome. I need to see the matches with Steve Grey at some point. The Barbarian Hiromichi/Samson/Ricky/Kodo Fuyuki Tito Santana I missed Barby's and Tito's best stuff, and what I've seen of Fuyuki leaves no real impression. Mr. Kennedy Not nearly as down on him as a lot of people are, but he isn't great, either. I've seen him in enough matches that I've really enjoyed that I can't honestly call him bad, but as charismatic as he is, he just doesn't feel special to me in any way. He'll likely be a big star someday, but I don't really care much about him. A.J. Styles I'd like to join others in this thread in assuming that AJ's current heel run is good, but the whole reason I don't watch TNA is because even when Russo gets something right, he gets it wrong, and I doubt AJ's heel run is any different. Still, I feel that he has proven capable of being a great wrestler over the years, and probably still is.

Oh, c'mon Tom, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that's why it was pulled.

AAA has fallen a lot. They have way too many commercials and replays to fit 3 hours in. If TUF wins, The awards are fixed. Actual quality of AAA's show hasn't fallen. Agreed, they don't do the best job of using the three-hour timeslot, and I have it below Smackdown, but what's there is still really good. Still, kinda wish they'd free up some of that replay time to put Los Diabolicos or El Canibal back on my TV.

Really could be any of a number of people, and most of them are decent choices. Personally, I'd go with Aero Star at this point. Agreed on Aero Star. Then Laredo Kid, then Super Fly. Khali after his world title push will probably take it, even if he earned it somewhat via popping a buyrate. Should still be Michaels or Angle. Which buyrate did Khali pop? For all his (many, MANY) flaws, Michaels more or less held up his end of the bargain in the main event of the biggest show in pro wrestling history. Plus, he was on the shelf much of the year, and he came back to a RAW that didn't have a lot of top faces. I mean, I'd rather see Jeff Hardy challenge Orton, or even Hunter, but it's not like there's a ton of major faces with Cena out. This should be Angle's award. I actually never thought of Batista as a bad worker - even when everybody else was down on him - but he's just such a frustratingly shitty babyface that I want to vote for him here. The fans still seem to be into him (unless he's fighting Taker), so maybe he doesn't really fit, but really, fuck that guy. Edge, stripped of the...um...edgier aspects of his gimmick when he just to Smackdown, really was exposed pretty badly. But again, not in that position very long before he got hurt. Honestly, no one jumps out at me but Angle. Probably won't be Punk at this point and I don't know if anyone even cares about Benjamin anymore. Should still be Val Venis but I'm less sure who it will be now. What would Jimmy Jacobs be considered? He's an excellent wrestler and an excellent booker, and the angles he works are generally featured prominently, but they're also presented as sort of a sideshow like the ROH vs. CZW feud was, since actual cool pro wrestling blood feuds aren't considered ROH main event material most of the time. PAC still gets featured prominently in PWG, but apparently got caught in a sucky match with Roderick Strong in New York, and ROH soured on him. I don't know if that means anything, depending on how you weigh being "rated" in various indies. And, of course, there's always Val Venis. Should absolutely be AAA. Will probably be UFC. I can see AAA making a big increase in votes over past years, though. AAA, WWE, and...um...ROH, I suppose. Smackdown fell a lot. AAA didn't. AAA should win. TUF will. Not sure what worked show will place highest, but I can see AAA placing higher again. I'm still digging Smackdown. AAA gets second. RAW can be really good some weeks, and really frustrating on others. ECW on Sci Fi got a lot better. That might be my third place pick. This is still my pick. I'm still catching up on stuff. I really need to see the PPV Nigel vs. Danielson match before I make any decisions. I'm going with the first Nigel vs. Morishima match for now, followed by Nigel vs. Joe from Liverpool and Joe vs. Morishima. Again, I dunno. I don't even know who would be considered a rookie this year. He came back, but I can see people souring on him. Teddy Long? Armando Estrada? Probably should still be Vince. It might still be Vince, but he was setting up so much better of a year for himself than we got that I feel wrong voting for him. Teddy Long, John Cena Sr., Lacey, and Larry Sweeney would be the other contenders. Still JBL. Yep. I can see Tenay actually taking it now, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he didn't. It's about time people started catching on to how awful Tenay is. There's really a case to be made for him being the worst wrestling announcer ever, never mind this year. Same. Agreed. Royal Rumble was a pretty strong contender, too, and could've easily had my vote any other year. What was that show everyone hated more recently...Unforgiven? Probably that, but I can still see D2D placing high. I don't really go out of my way to watch bad wrestling. I actually didn't hate Unforgiven, but I imagine that will win. Should be Nitro's split-legged corkscrew moonsault or Aero Star's missile tope. Not sure what it will be. Definitely should be Aero Star's tope. Well, it only took a few days for this to change. WWE's handling of the Benoit fallout. Still TNA. Agreed on these. Probably this. The Boogeyman vs. Big Daddy V or Hornswoggle vs. The Great Khali might've stolen Rosie vs. Trump's thunder. I don't see this winning, someone will probably pick the Hornswaggle stuff. I got nothing. Pretty much the same. SD fell off a bit, should be whichever Roldan is officially booking or Konnan or whoever, followed maybe by Dusty. Should be whichever Roldan is officially running AAA. Agreed with all this. Still MVP. Jimmy Jacobs' emo stuff. Edge as Vickie Guerrero's lover has a shot even if it started a week before the period ended. Maybe Hornswaggle as Vince's son. Adam Pearce as the world's poorest man's Raven. Considering how poor of a poor man's Raven actual Raven is, that's saying something.

Still Cena. Oh, yeah. Cena, Cibernetico, and Mesias. Not Benoit. Finlay? I dunno. Not a lot of great standout technical matches this year outside the Benoit/MVP matches. Most of the best stuff was slugfests. Hard to think of who the best technical wrestler is when there aren't that many great technical matches. Honestly, I'd be tempted to vote for someone like Solar I or Negro Navarro, just because you know they're out there wrestling somewhere, and you just know they're probably better technicians than 95% of wrestlers working today, even if they only make tape two or three times a year. Barring that, I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and vote for Chrazy Chris. Should be Cena (though I haven't seen the pimped ROH Jacobs stuff). I could see it being someone ridiculous like Samoa Joe who really shouldn't win but gets votes because he hits people. Whoever gets my vote for most outstanding gets my vote for best brawler, as really, Nigel's whole bit is finding new and exciting ways to lariat dudes into oblivion. Umaga's my third-place pick. Necro Butcher really had a quiet year, didn't he?

Will probably end up being Serra-Hughes that wins. Should still be Apache family drama. It should've been Cena vs. Orton, but it didn't really work out that way. Actually, it REALLY should've been Cena vs. a heel Michaels, but working heel is a sin, as opposed to Shawn's current gimmick: being an abomination before God as a babyface. But I digress. I lean Los Hell Brothers vs. La Secta de Mesias/La Lejion Extranjera, followed by B.J. Whitmer/Colt Cabana/Daizee Haze vs. Jimmy Jacobs/Lacey/Brent Albright and Billy Boy/Alfa vs. Fabi Apache vs. El Apache/Misc. Cronies vs. Real Fuerza Aerea, in that order. Cade & Murdoch are excellent but have been unspectacular since the Hardy program ended. I could actually see MVP & Hardy winning. Unfortunately, the clear Tag Team of the Year is Los Hell Brothers, but I don't think you can vote for trios. Wikipedia says that The Freebirds won in 1980, but only for Gordy and Roberts. I guess the main "tag team" for Los Hell Brothers would be Chessman and Charly Manson, but I couldn't see picking them without Cibernetico. Fuck, I'd probably vote for The Hardys anyway. Beyond that...um...The Briscoes, maybe? Akiyama and Rikio? Fuckin' Hell. I can't see it being anyone other than Cena or MVP at this point. Cena, Jeff Hardy, John Morrison. This is even harder to call than it was 5 months ago. I could see MVP doing well now and he's my pick, but I really don't know who will take it. MVP, Regal, and Santino, and I'll be damned if I know in what order.

CMLL scarily bottomed out. This is Cena's award and I'll be shocked if he doesn't win. I guess Couture might (grumble grumble). Cena is the only actual wrestler worth mentioning here. If you - like me - are still not sold on the whole "MMA = wrestling" thing, the second and third place votes are the tricky ones. I'm thinking Cibernetico might be a good 2nd place pick. Third is really a crapshoot. Mistico? Nagata? Misawa? Mesias? Orton? Orton has increased his standing, but otherwise I can't see much changing here. I've been going back and forth between Cena and Matt Hardy all year, but as I slowly get caught up on my ROH watching, Nigel seems as good of a candidate as either of them. Jeff Hardy and Umaga had really strong working years, too. Still, probably either Cena and Nigel as #1 and #2 (though not sure which would be which), and Matt Hardy #3. See Flair/Thesz. Ditto.

Attorney: Your honor, the defendant is a child pornographer and serial killer responsible for the deaths of several hundred young children. The massive and indisputable stack of evidence is Exhibit A. Judge: Damn, that is massive and indisputable. Defense: Your honor, I move that this case be dismissed. My client is a pro wrestler, and nobody cares about pro wrestling. Judge: Oh? So be it. Case dismissed. [Defendant kills several small children on his way out. The Judge waves it off.] And that's exactly how it would happen, because no one cares about pro wrestling, thus making it immune from any potential outside threat ever. SERIOUSLY! I'M SUPER SERIAL YOU GUYS!

Yep. I've criticized Shawn Michaels' sad attempts to cover for his thinly-veiled homosexuality as much as anyone, but you have to do way better than that vest and that voice to be too gay for wrestling. I mean, Batista is considered a shining beacon of masculinity in wrestling. You have to out-gay BATISTA to at least be IN CONTENTION for being too gay for wrestling. The thing that struck me about Jericho was actually that he looked like every 80's metal front man ever trying to pull of the same look 20 years later. Which, I guess, is what he is, except it's wrestling, so the aging process takes half the time.

I wouldn't have said that when they were teaming. Not at all. Carlito, as TomK mentioned, was pretty good at that point. Post-face turn, when he started doing the Shelton Benjamin/Davey Richards "workrate for the sake of workrate" style, and Masters started really putting in some effort, I'd have put Masters ahead of him. Mind you, that doesn't mean Carlito was lazy, just that he was bad. Masters' effort didn't totally cover for the fact that he sucked - which he did - but it was effort in the right direction, whereas Carlito's efforts were in opposition to what he did best. One thing that hasn't been noted yet here is that while doing the heavy workrate style, Carlito was still working the cool indifferent gimmick. As has been pointed out time and time again in arguments about alleged "great technicians", Shawn Michaels being a "Showstopper" in 2007, and MVP and The Miz being "bad workers", internet smarks who think they're above being fooled by wrestling gimmicks tend to be very easily taken in by wrestling gimmicks. Which means that if they're going to criticize Carlito, the most striking thing to them won't be anything he's actually doing in the ring, but his cool indifferent gimmick. So he's jumping high, jumping far, and doing all the other high energy stuff that some people love Shelton Benjamin for, and they criticize him for being lazy. When he turned heel and feuded with Flair, he seemed to largely be back to his area of core competence. Masters was putting in maximum effort at this point, but he had certain glaring flaws as a worker that he failed to overcome. I remember his first match after being drafted to Smackdown, he beat up this jobber and busted out a lot of really good looking offense. And I mean A LOT, to the point where I found myself asking "isn't this supposed to be a squash? Why doesn't he slap on the Masterlock already? Yeah, Chris, you've got a nice elbowdrop, but I don't want them to have to cut time out of the Matt Hardy match just so you can prove that you've got a deep moveset."