S.L.L.

1. How big of a WCW fan were you during the company's actual run? It's not that I wasn't a fan - far from it - it's just that I feel I never fully appreciated them when they were around, and I kinda regret it now. Wish I had started watching sooner than I did, wish I didn't spend so much of the time I was watching them thinking how much better off thus-and-such underappreciated wrestler would be in the WWF, etc. But I watched them pretty regularly from the time Nitro went on the air until I finally gave up during the Russo era. Nothing really made me realize what an ingrate I had been until everything on the show that was worth watching was gone. 2. Are you a bigger fan of WCW now or then? Definitely now, for reasons outlined above. 3. Best Year/Period for WCW Kip Allen Frey/Bill Watts period. 4. Best World Heavyweight Title run Either Flair in '89-'90 or Vader in '92-'93. Might be worth noting that in most of those really great Flair/Steamboat matches, Steamboat was champion. 5. Best United States Championship run I have a feeling that a WCW Project would give me a better answer to this question that whatever I could come up with now. 6. Best Tag Team Championship run See above. This one's especially tricky, because there was a lot of great tag team wrestling at various points in WCW, and very little that I remember that was done when the belts were actually on the line. At least, not enough to make, say, The Steiners stand out to me from the Miracle Violence Connection or Windham and Rhodes or Benoit and Malenko or whatever. 7. Best Television Championship run Man, I really have a hankering for a WCW Project. 8. Best Cruiserweight Championship run Poor booking was kinda the hallmark of everything WCW did, so I'm not sure it's entirely fair to hold that against Jericho. As far as an individual reign goes, it's his in '98 that stands out to me as the best, because it was the first time that I felt they had taken the quality wrestling of the cruiserweight division and injected it with the kind of face/heel drama that could have taken the division to the next level. Okay, not really the first time, but the first extended period of time. Let's not forget the whole Eddy/Rey thing played out over the course of about a month. Jericho wasn't the best worker ever to carry the belt, but he was no slouch, and his heel schtick was aces. 9. Best feud WCW vs. The Dangerous Alliance 10. Most Underrated Feud In terms of company recognition: Lord Steven Regal vs. The Belfast Bruiser In terms of critical recognition: Okay, my recollection here is pretty vague, but I seem to recall a mini-feud on Saturday Night between Benoit/Malenko and the Armstrongs, including one match where the Armstrongs cut a pre-match promo where they ostensibly turned heel, and I was kinda intrigued by the notion of them doing a 1-2-3 Kid/Barry Horowitz "jobber suddenly starts winning" angle with the jobbers as heels. It didn't quite happen that way, but I do recall the matches being really good. 11. Best Angle or Storyline Hulk Hogan turns heel, is revealed as The Outsiders' secret partner 12. Most Underrated Angle or Storyline In terms of company recognition: The Belfast Bruiser tracks down Steven Regal, beats the shit out of him during a Saturday Night squash In terms of critical recognition: I don't know if it's so much that it was underappeciated than that it was appreciated and we just forgot about it because of it's abrupt and tragic ending, but Scott Hall taking Louie Spicolli under his wing as a fledgling nWo member, and Spicolli's constant tormenting of the announce team was pretty great for the five seconds it lasted before Spicolli OD'd. 13. Best Booker Ummmm....Watts? 14. Wrestler who had the most surprising run I agree with Tim Evans that DDP's career arc was pretty unlikely. 15. A worker they could have done more with All of the above, pretty much. 16. The worker who's most synonymnous with WCW for you Ric Flair 17. The point where Flair got old 1993, but it should be noted that this isn't the point where he got bad. Just old. 18. Best Face Sting 19. Best Heel Hogan, warts and all. 20. Most Underrated Face By the company: Sting, oddly enough By the critics: I think there have been a lot of people - including the man himself - who were really wrapped up in this notion that Ric Flair had to be a heel that they failed to notice that he was constantly one of the most over faces in the company pretty much from the moment WCW came into existence. Certainly, his most valuable periods for the company came with him as a face, and I'm inclined to think that the unwillingness to book him as one long term hurt them just as much as some of their other, more talked-about failings. 21. Most Underrated Heel By the company: Steve Austin , though in terms of what they were actually doing in the company at the time, probably Jericho By the critics: Hogan, oddly enough 22. The worker who was most effective whether they were heel or face Ric Flair 23. A worker who turned (heel or face) too many times Ric Flair 24. Favourite Commentating Pairing Ross and Ventura 25. Lasting Memory of WCW A great promotion that, sadly, could have been so much better 26. Favorite "Only in WCW ..." moment Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage vs. The Alliance to End Hulkamania - Tower of Doom Match, Uncensored '96 And if I may add one more.... 27. If only....

So he's not not about quantity, he's just talking about...quantity?

He's arguing by assertion. Unless he actually has something to back up his claims with, I'd just as soon assume he's gone crazy.

Homina homina homina homina......

Between that and the Mark Henry talk, it sort of got me thinking about perception of how bodies look in wrestling. Like, there have been plenty of fat jokes made about Kobashi back when he grew a bit of a paunch. With him apparently being such a fanatic about training, obviously there was nothing he could do (naturally) to get rid of those few extra inches. But still, a lot of people gave him shit about it. Same thing with Mark Henry: despite being one of the most awesome natural athletes in wrestling history, I've seen and heard god knows how many jokes about him being hefty. Same thing with Samoa Joe now; clearly he's got all the cardio he needs, what with doing 60-minute matches and such, yet the endless Fatboy Joe comments just keep on rolling. What caused this weird situation where a lot of fans don't take a wrestler seriously unless they've got a sparkling six-pack of roidapalooza abdominals? Is it just from the decades of WWE brainwashing that the real champions all look like Hogan? Honestly, it probably is...which, of course, is especially ironic considering the kind of people who bitch about Mark Henry being "fat" are usually the same dudes who complained about how Hogan ruined wrestling to some degree or another.

1. How was AAA overall in 2007? Very good. I started watching it regularly again this year at Bix's insistence, and was really struck by what a good show it was. Much has already been written about the Apache family saga, so I probably don't need to do any more to tell you how great it's been. The main event stuff has been a lot of fun despite the questionable in-ring talents of some of the people involved. Cibernetico and El Mesias are really charismatic, and they do try really hard in the ring, even if they're not great workers strictly speaking. Chessman and X-Pac both deliver good stuff in the main events to help those guys along. I really dig Kenzo Suzuki, too. The Mexican Powers are pretty hard to watch, but Juvi is still really good and his matches with his dad were really good. Real Fuerza Aerea are a ton of fun. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the Guapos VIP/Bellos Stone feud, which is really one of the best overlooked feuds going on today. Just total chaos, sort of like the Lawler/Funk empty arena match in that their matches feel more like big brawling angles than actual matches. Only this has evil refs to push around and evil midgets to chuck at your opponents. 2. What was the best overall period for AAA and why? '92-'96, for reasons we've already gone over. 3. What was the worst overall period for AAA and why? '02-'03 seems like the period where Pena just cared the least and the roster was the least interesting 4. What are the must-see matches, covering the entire history of AAA? The Santo/Octagon vs. Eddy/Barr matches, though I'm one of the guys who thinks the When Worlds Collide match is overrated, it's something that gets talked up enough and is important enough that it probably should be seen. There's a whole host of Mysterio vs. Psicosis and Mysterio vs. Juvi matches worth checking out, but in particular, I do feel I must pimp Rey Mysterios Jr. & Sr. vs. Fuerza & Juventud Guerrera. Santo/Octagon/Mysterio vs. Fuerza/Panther/Psicosis and Santo/Octagon/Mysterio vs. Fuerza/Juvi/Psicosis are two of the better trios matches of the 90's. 5. Which wrestlers have had the best runs in the history of AAA? Barr '92-'94 Santo '92-'95 Panther '92-'95 Fuerza '92-'95 Eddy '93-'94 Rey Jr. '93-'96 Psicosis '93-'96 Juventud '95-'96 6. How would you describe AAA booking overall? When Pena died, Jose Gonzalez wrote something on the DVDVR board that describes AAA booking better than anything new I could write: "Peña was a genius. He provided people with the best wrestling they had seen at a time when the (superior) CMLL product was labeled as old and boring. He did what Vince McMahon always claims he did (but didn't): he took wrestling out of dirty and smokey arenas, because he turned those same places into colorful places with lights all over the place and pop hits playing on the arena's sound system. When he went out on his own and couldn't get good arenas in the hot cities due to the decades-long CMLL monopoly, he literally created his own wrestling cities. Once his good workers left, he found a new niche audience that didn't care about quality wrestling - but even then, he was always aware that you need good wrestlers around, so Gran Apache and the Diabolicos were always there as the glue to hold stuff together. He was a guy that would give everybody a chance. If you were good looking but a bad worker, you'd get your chance to work with world class professionals to get better. If you were a good worker with no charisma (or at least his vision of charisma), you'd put on a mask and get your chance to put on good performances. People who don't know about lucha talk about this boom like it's something that just happened overnight, but after a bad slump where the promotion almost died, he has been drawing huge for the big AAA supershows during more than half a decade, and filling arenas for weekly TV for just as long. He did a lot of things that nobody thought he could have done - like outdraw the WWF in their own turf, take wrestling to the mainstream and make it a "cool thing" instead of entertainment for the poor, and provide us with countless hours of entertainment (for the good and for the bad). His "let's throw shit to the wall and see what sticks in" approach to wrestling is what made his booking style unique - he had a lot of busts we have forgotten about, but when he had a hit, it almost always was a huge hit. Ultimately, I'll personally remember him as a guy that, at several points in time, created and pushed a human ice cream cone, Power Rangers, mariachis, football players, hockey players, teenage soccer players, soccer playing goats, a pumpkin, ninjas with colorful attires, ninja turtles, Elvis, one eyed monsters, a stable of kickboxers, a Tiger Mask clone, a fourth rate Dump’s Army, a dozen different types of insects, Chucky, several stables of wrestling clowns including gay clowns, Micro Konnan, two monkeys, Acapulco beach bums, a gringo lion, evil goblins, a shark, male and female mentally ill wrestlers (including an insane version of Gloria Trevi, a famous star convicted for being a pedophile), rabbits, mafioso, midget versions of Mankind, Goldust, and Vader, zombies, bats, ghosts, spectres, dead men, evil monks, two dozen masked martial artists, Japanese kamikazes, satanists, aliens, a very fat guy and a very tiny guy with currency names, crying monsters, an evil policeman called Policeman, whatever Alebrije and Cuije are supposed to be, street gang members, midget street gang members, evil witches, Andre The Midget, mini Head Hunters, a Fuhrer, several monsters coming from deep in the sea, Blue Demon from other space, Hannibal Lecter, American farm boys, several scarecrows, bullfighters, mummies, yetis, roosters, transvestites, the wolfman, an over the top gay character mocking a rival network's president, snakes, Dracula, a hunchback, Aladdin and his genie, rappers, skaters, underage street cleaners, female strippers, themed male strippers (an Aztec, a nazi, and a pharaoh), a stable of wrestlers named after guns, Kiss and Marilyn Manson themed wrestlers, The Crow, a male version of the Spice Girls, a sultan and his slave, a wrestler based on a serial killer, sewer rats, second and third versions of half of those mentioned before, an evil El Santo, a stable of American rebels, a Canadian vampire, five dancing skeletons, and GRONDA." 7. Five best AAA matches ever? There's a couple of big matches I'd like to see before I make a top 5. I figure the 1993 Santo/Octagon vs. Eddy/Barr match would probably be #1. 8. Any interesting AAA-related links? I got nothing. 9. Are there things that are sort of unique to AAA that someone who is watching for the first time should know? If so, what? See Jose's comments above 10. What do you think AAA will be most remembered for, good or bad? Giving the world Rey Mysterio. 11. What do you think caused the downturn in the late 90s? Aside from the huge loss of talent, I think Pena was just burnt out. Two more questions I'd like to add here: What do you expect from AAA in 2008? What do you hope for from AAA in 2008?

Okay, I meant to write this last night, but it was late, and even an obsessive maniac like me needs sleep. Earlier, I said, "Well, a big part of my argument would be the quality of the WWE's undercard and their free TV wrestling these days." And if I were to argue 21st century WWE has been better than 90's WWF, that's probably where the heart of the argument would lie. You compare the PPV main events of the 90's with those of this decade, the 90's seems to come out on top, though this decade isn't over and Cena could likely be a Bret/Michaels/Austin type performer who can deliver those matches regularly. But as it stands, I'd have to give the 90's the edge there. The difference is what's going on below that. These tended to be filled with lesser performers, squash matches, short matches, Russo-riffic matches, or some combination of the above. Can't think of a situation in the 90's where you had a guy like Matt Hardy coming out every week this year and delivering great spotlight TV matches. Don't think it's an environment he would have excelled in, at least not as a singles wrestler. Conversely, if 90's WWF had the same environment it has had this decade, I imagine we might be looking at guys like Marty Jannetty, The Orient Express, the Matt Borne Doink, The 1-2-3 Kid, Furnas and Lafon, Flash Funk/Scorpio, and probably a host of others in a different light than we usually do. Not that we look down on those guys, but these are guys who didn't have the opportunities that Matt Hardy has today to deliver really high quality matches on a regular basis. And then, of course, there are the guys from that era who already get recognition as great workers who would have had the opportunity to expand their bodies of great matches even further. Maybe Yokozuna would've gotten his due as a great big man worker in his lifetime. Or maybe he would've just died of a heart attack even sooner. Who can be sure?

For comparative purposes, your better WWF big main events of the '90s: Hulk Hogan vs. The Ultimate Warrior (Mania VI, and I don't care what anyone says, I still love this match) Ric Flair vs. Randy Savage (Mania VIII) Bret Hart vs. The British Bulldog (maybe not a main event, strictly speaking, but close enough) Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Summerslam '94) Bret Hart vs. The British Bulldog (IYH December '95) Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels (Mania XII) Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind (Mind Games) The Undertaker vs. Bret Hart (Summerslam '97 and One Night Only) Canadian Stampede 10-man Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker (Badd Blood) Steve Austin vs. Dude Love (Over the Edge '98) Steve Austin vs. The Undertaker (SummerSlam '98) Even considering how many more PPVs WWE ran in the 2000's than in the 90's, the 90's still seemed to have the deeper library of great main event matches, though they are clustered a bit more densely in '96-'98. Similarly, 2000's has a cluster this year with all the great Cena matches, and I left off the matches with Khali and Lashley which I feel are good enough to include. If Cena comes back and continues to be great, it's possible we'll see a similar pattern in '07-'09, with Cena being a Bret/Michaels/Austin level performer.

Well, a big part of my argument would be the quality of the WWE's undercard and their free TV wrestling these days. '90s WWF's in-ring strong suit was it's main event matches, particularly when they featured those two guys above, as well as contributions later in the decade from Austin. But 21st century main events also had some real good stuff from HHH in 2000, Austin in 2001, Lesnar in 2002, Eddie and that other guy in 2004, Mysterio in 2006, and Cena this year. The cast is a bit more scattershot, but the quality is definitely there. 21st century WWE big main events gave us.... Cactus Jack vs. Triple H (Rumble '00) The Rock vs. Steve Austin (Mania X-7) Brock Lesnar vs. The Undertaker (No Mercy '02) Eddie Guerrero vs. John Bradshaw Layfield (Judgement Day '04) Rey Mysterio vs. John Bradshaw Layfield (Judgement Day '06) John Cena vs. Umaga (Rumble '07) John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels (Mania 23 and London Raw) John Cena vs. Randy Orton (SummerSlam '07) ....all of which would probably stand up well next to your better '90s WWF main events.

'80s and '90s might have had more great wrestling just by virtue of having more wrestling, period. Figure the DVDVR 80's Project has looked at/will look at: WWF Other Japan Mid-South Joshi All Japan New Japan AWA Solie (which may have been broken up further, though I'm not sure) Canada/Other US Mexico Texas/Memphis/Puerto Rico The '90s polls had: WCW New Japan Japanese Indies All Japan Lucha Libre US Indies Joshi ECW (which probably should have been lumped in with US indies, but there you go) WWF A hypothetical 2000's poll would likely have: WWF/E US indies (ROH might get the ECW treatment, I'm not sure what they'd do with TNA or deathbed WCW, not like there would be too many hyped matches from either of those) Lucha Libre New Japan NOAH All Japan & Various Japanese Promotions that tried to become major players (Zero-One, maybe HUSTLE?) Other Japanese Indies (probably including joshi) Not sure if it would be so much a decline in the quality of wrestling this decade as a side effect of the further consolidation of wrestling this decade. I mean, the Japanese promotions of the 2000's probably wouldn't look to good next to the promotions of the '90s, but 21st century WWE might look a lot better than '90s WWF.

....said Resident Evil as he responded to SLL again.

Not a problem. This post probably did more to validate my claims than anything I ever could've written.

Kinda was hoping to find an article that did read so...um...strangely, but here ya go. I remember Meltzer doing a write-up on an earlier article around the time he became the first person to clean and press the inch dumbbell, where the writer said that Henry was probably the strongest dude to ever live, and Meltzer agreed.

Even a long-winded son-of-a-bitch like myself isn't going to run down your entire history of creepy workout related comments in detail. I go to the workout bench one because it's the most memorable. Suffice it to say, you've had a long history of talking about wrestlers' workouts (and one wrestler moreso than the others) that tended to read like those ads on EBay for wrestling videos, with the seller focusing on how handsome and muscular the competitors are, basically selling it as gay muscle porn. God, look at your other post: Ignoring the fact that there is nothing "natural" about what these guys do to their bodies (you cited Kurt Angle's workouts, for crying out loud), what does being "mannish" have to do with anything? You know what wrestler's workout routine I'm curious about? Mark Henry. Dude is probably the strongest guy in the history of the world. How he got there seems way more interesting to me than how Bodybuilder X became studly enough to make a lesser man melt at his very touch.

I'm really not trying to harp on this.. But.. My previous point stands. Aren't you going offtopic here? This is a Kobashi thread. Training/Working out is an essential part of prowrestling. They are forever linked. Eh, how's that creepy to want to hear some workout stories? I love to workout. I love to hear workout theories. I love to hear fascinating workout stuff. I like to see th effect of stuff. For the person themselves and for the wrestling I like to hear stories about people pushing themselves as motivation. Wether it's Bruce Lee doing 1 finger pushups or Angle's insane workouts for the Olympics or someone doing breathing squats or a dojo wrestling story -- I want to hear about it. It's just curiousity about a natural mannish thing to do. l part What's so creepy about that? Am I just supposed to like and talk about Cabbage Patch Kids or My Little Pony or makeup or something? Not sure what point Spunk was referencing, but for me, there was a certain TMI story you once divulged involving a weight bench and a workout you loved just a little too much that makes your intense fascination with the subject a bit creepy to me.

The thing about Benoit is that there was nothing unique about his situation except the outcome. Obviously, it would be foolish to assume that every at risk wrestler (read: all of them, pretty much) is going to go on a killing spree. What should be a concern is that they're going to get to that point, that it's a requiremnet in a criminal culture with very abnormal moral standards, and there is no oversight from any concerned legal authority whatsoever. And while I'm not necessarily opposed to crazy idiots destroying themselves, I don't see why it has to be that way, and if it does pose a threat to the outside world - even if it is a very rare occurance - there should be some degree of regulation. Period.

In John's defense, his "hate" of Flair always seemed situational. When people are going way, way overboard in their praise of Flair, only natural that he's going to focus on the flaws.

Man, two of the biggest attractions in the company for me are X-Pac and Kenzo Suzuki. Okay, Suzuki isn't exactly an American, but still. Wouldn't mind seeing a Rene Dupree or a Sandman making his way south of the border. Actually, my main interest in 2008 lucha is seeing if Santo's promotion ends up being any good, but you get the idea.

My God, it's so obvious now: How could I have been so blind?

Margaret Hamilton, eh? You know, Kevin Nash was trained by Jody Hamilton. Therefore, wrestling is MMA. It all makes sense now! The Hamilton family, in conjunction with Tex Rickard and Jack Dempsey, under the supervision of the reverse vampires, are forcing wrestling promoters to fix their matches in a fiendish plot to eliminate wrestling's identity as MMA. Which further reveals the most startling truth of all: MMA is NOT wrestling; wrestling is MMA! We're through the looking glass, here, people.

To the people saying that boxing is MMA or wrestling or whatever -- it's not because boxing is just combat where you "only" use your fists. Combat where you use "everything" is wrestling or MMA. Boxing is different though similar in some aspects. Combat where you use everything is street fighting or war. Combat where you use everything within reason is MMA. A genre of theater defined by it's focus on a fictional form of combat is wrestling. Professional wrestling is not combat. It is a genre of fiction about combat. These are two very, very, very different things. Because you dramatically changed something very crucial to it's definition as pro wrestling. Let me put it to you this way. If you could see me right now, you could accurately describe me as a living human being. If you then produced a revolver and shot me through the head, you could probably accurately describe me as a dead body. You took a fundamental aspect of my first classification (being alive) and changed it rather drastically, much like taking a fundamental aspect of wrestling (it's a genre of fiction) and changing that. Would you apply the same logic in this situation and say that a living being and a lifeless corpse are the same thing, or do you agree with me that this is stupid? While the above example may seem severe, keep in mind that it's actually a more direct comparison than pro wrestling and MMA. At least life and death belong to the same classification of things. MMA and pro wrestling are entirely different types of things. One is a form of legitimate combat, and one is a genre of fiction. It's like suggesting boxing and the stories of P.G. Wodehouse are the same thing. Or muay thai and "The Lord of the Rings". Fuck, there's a more direct comparison between MMA and video games about pro wrestling than there is between MMA and actual pro wrestling, just because they're both games. But you can't change something crucial to the definition of something and expect it to be the same thing. In the original book of The Wizard of Oz, Dorothy wore silver slippers. In the movie, they became ruby slippers, because that would better highlight the use of Technicolor. Are silver and rubies the same thing? If you replaced the cast and crew of The Wizard of Oz with the cast and crew of Roadhouse, changed the setting to a bar in Jasper, Wyoming, changed the plot to something about a deeply philosophical bouncer helping take back a small town from a corrupt businessman, and changed the title of the movie to "Roadhouse", then it would be Roadhouse. Are The Wizard of Oz and Roadhouse the same movie? It doesn't work that way. You don't get to change the definition of things on a whim like that. No, it really, really isn't. Well, okay, more real than The Wizard of Oz, but not even close to reality, unless you're just living in a really fucked up place.

That picture by itself is fucking awesome. Admit it SLL, you chose the enitre Frank L. Baum theme just to have a legit reason to use it. Believe it or not, I actually picked the subject first and then got to the "shared history" line and had the light bulb go off in my head. It was actually the injuries line that made me think of Margaret Hamilton catching fire in a stunt gone wrong, and I went with "The Wizard of Oz" from that. The Wizard of Oz also featured several actors changing gimmicks to gain the greater interest of crowd (well, Hamilton was pretty over already as Miss Gulch, but I guess they wanted something more sports entertainmenty). Judy Garland's singing obviously inspired the pop idol aspect of 70's and 80's joshi, the Munchkins were a major inspiration for midget wrestling, the Cowardly Lion was both one of the first cowardly heels AND did one of the first face turns (as would the Wicked Witch's guards and the Wizard himself), the movie's climax is one of the earliest lucha de apuestas matches (Dorothy's slippers vs. the Witch's broom), the whole "click your heels together" thing is an early Russo-style swerve, and the ending is one of the earliest nostalgia shows (remember when the Wizard was a traveling fortune teller? Ah, the good old days of pure sports build).