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Everything posted by ohtani's jacket
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One thing I've noticed about Myers of late is that while his singles matches suffered from the Iron Fist gimmick, he became quite an exciting tag wrestler by the standards of the day. That's a pretty low bar when it comes to British tag wrestling, but he ushered in a flashier, more workrate driven style of tag wrestling that made it seem more like the spectacle it was billed as.
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Best Opponents for Inoki and Baba?
ohtani's jacket replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in Pro Wrestling
Considering Baba's best work was in the 60s and 70s, I have a hard time buying that Hansen was his best opponent. And as far as I recall, there wasn't really anyone who liked the entire Hansen/Inoki series. It seemed more a case of guys having one clear cut pick from the series. Best 80s opponent makes sense, but not best opponent overall. . -
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[1994-04-10-AJPW-Championship Carnival] Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi
ohtani's jacket replied to Loss's topic in April 1994
A lot of people said the Kobashi/Hansen match the night before Hansen/Taue is better because Kobashi has better offense than Taue and his win over Hansen means more. They're totally different matches as the rib injury occurs literally halfway through the Kobashi bout whereas with the Taue match it's the focus right from the start. The Kobashi bout has a bigger feel to it with more of the back and forth beginning you'd expect from two guys who are healthy. Kobashi does have better offense than Taue and is a better athlete. What he's not as good at in this two match comparison is selling. He looks like some kind of string puppet the way he sells. He was trying to be dramatic, but it was awkward looking. Hansen sold his demise well, as you'd expect, but it wasn't a truly great match despite the crowd reaction, and the Taue match seemed cooler to me.- 12 replies
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[1996-03-31-AJPW-Championship Carnival] Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue
ohtani's jacket replied to Loss's topic in March 1996
The 3/96 Taue bout is a decent watch. It's a bit like watching two tag partners try to prove who the better wrestler is without trying to maim one another. Kawada works from the top a lot as Taue sustains an early arm injury, which in itself is a bit too cutesy since the guy's big move is a chokeslam. I wouldn't really call it an aggressive performance from Kawada, but again I liked the way he's able to give his submission attempts a shoot like quality by making them seem like it's a fight to keep them locked. Taue sells a lot, and is okay in that role, but naturally when he tries to work his way back into the bout it's through the chokeslam. Loss described the Hansen/Taue fight as academic, but to me the shifts in momentum from Taue selling a lot to Kawada being stunned by a chokeslam are far more academic. It's not that the wrestling is bad; it's just that you know it's going to swing back and forth down the stretch despite Taue being injured for two thirds of the bout. They do a decent job of evening things up, and it's more staggered than in a lot of wrestling bouts, but it's kind of predictable in the way it unfolds.- 9 replies
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The 3/96 Taue bout is a decent watch. It's a bit like watching two tag partners try to prove who the better wrestler is without trying to maim one another. Kawada works from the top a lot as Taue sustains an early arm injury, which in itself is a bit too cutesy since the guy's big move is a chokeslam. I wouldn't really call it an aggressive performance from Kawada, but again I liked the way he's able to give his submission attempts a shoot like quality by making them seem like it's a fight to keep them locked. Taue sells a lot, and is okay in that role, but naturally when he tries to work his way back into the bout it's through the chokeslam. Loss described the Hansen/Taue fight as academic, but to me the shifts in momentum from Taue selling a lot to Kawada being stunned by a chokeslam are far more academic. It's not that the wrestling is bad; it's just that you know it's going to swing back and forth down the stretch despite Taue being injured for two thirds of the bout. They do a decent job of evening things up, and it's more staggered than in a lot of wrestling bouts, but it's kind of predictable in the way it unfolds.
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The Beginner's Guide To British Wrestling
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in Megathread archive
THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 40 Burslam, 9/27/86 Knockout tournament: Blondie Barratt/Rocky Moran vs. Brian Maxine/Keith Myatt Clive Myers/Fuji Yamada vs. John Wilkie/Zigue Zag Myers/Yamada vs. Barratt/Moran This was by far the best episode of Satellite Wrestling on Screensport I've seen. It wasn't as though the wrestling was a match for WoS in its pomp, but it was consistently entertaining from top to bottom, and so long as you drown out the moronic commentators there's a lot to enjoy. Judging by this, the one area where increased exposure to American bouts improved British wrestling was tag wrestling. At least during the '74-84 period that I'm most familiar with. The tag wrestling from Paul Lincoln Promotions in the 60s looked pretty good. These matches had 15 minute time limits, but they managed to work in the FIP elements that are so often missing from British wrestling and the heels got tremendous heat, especially Barratt, who was slapped in the face by one woman, attacked on the apron by another, and chewed out by an irate father carrying his baby under one arm. Brian Maxine did a surprisingly good job of playing a fired up babyface in the first bout. It was much better than his other face work I've seen. Yamada was making his television debut and was keen to impress. He looked a thousand times better here than in his Reslo bouts. Myers also looked slick and complemented him well. I've grown to accept his Ironfist gimmick for what it was. I still hate it compared to the simple trunks and boots, but such a huge chunk of his career was as Ironfist that you've got to accept it. When he's on point, there's no-one in British wrestling who's as exciting to watch. Moran was also good. I was sky high on him when I first encountered his work then he tailed off badly, but here he was the Emilio Charles Jr style foil I loved so much from his ITV work. Even the lesser guys like journeyman Wilkie, potbellyed local Keith Myatt, and some fella called Chris McNeill doing a Bobby Barnes inspired "punk rock" gimmick, brought something to the table here. There was some bullshit in the final with Moran and Barratt challenging Clive Myers to arm wrestling contests (those of you familiar with Myers will know he was a legit world champion arm wrestler), but all up an entertaining hour. Yamada even cuts a promo in English and since it's the last show of the series there's a post-match vignette where Rocco attacks the commentators with a cake (what else?) Amusing that this was the last episode ever made and the only one I enjoyed. -
A lot of people said that the Kobashi/Hansen match the night before Hansen/Taue is better because Kobashi has better offense than Taue and his win over Hansen means more. They're totally different matches as the rib injury occurs literally halfway through the Kobashi bout whereas with the Taue match it's the focus right from the start. The Kobashi bout has a bigger feel to it with more of the back and forth beginning you'd expect from two guys who are healthy. Kobashi does have better offense than Taue and is a better athlete. What he's not as good at in this two match comparison is selling. He looks like some kind of string puppet the way he sells. He was trying to be dramatic, but it was awkward looking. Hansen sold his demise well, as you'd expect, but it wasn't a truly great match despite the crowd reaction, and the Taue match seemed cooler to me.
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I think Hansen's work improved as the house style changed. I don't think there's any way he could have worked the matches I've watched of late against Kawada or Taue a decade earlier. There wasn't the same focus on the moment-to-moment build as there was in the early 90s and not as much focus on selling and receiving damage. Hansen deserves a ton of credit for adapting to the changes in the company's style and excelling at the new match structure, but I think it was the change in style that prompted it more than a change in roles. I dunno if he was playing a different role in the 80s, or simply protecting his spot, but the focus ought to be on whether it was any good. A lot of his 80s work seems aimless to me. I think he makes poor decisions on a moment-to-moment basis and his character work borders on self-parody at times. I don't mind if he's guzzling opponents. It's the mechanics that bother me, specifically not being able to work over an opponent in an interesting way or crappy/predictable brawling on the outside. Things you wouldn't really associate with Hansen in general.
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Haven't watched lucha for ages. Didn't know where to start so I started all over the place. Blue Panther/Guerrero Negro vs. Huracán Sevilla/Gran Hamada (Monterrey 1991) I love Huracan Sevilla. Everything I've read about his reign of terror at Pavillón Azteca as Darth Vader seems the stuff of lucha journeyman legend. Terrorising toys, puppets and cartoon characters is surreal enough, but having his partners turn on him, and losing his mask to a local star in Guatemala, only adds to the legend. I liked him as the highly unnecessary Huracán Ramírez II and loved his run without a hood. I don't know much about his later gimmicks, but if you're a lucha fan you learn to love journeymen in a country where there's been literally hundreds upon hundreds of professional wrestlers. This started off with some welcome mat exchanges between Sevilla and Blue Panther, who I believe was in his prime in 1991. That was followed by some slick exchanges between Guerrero Negro and Gran Hamada, who execution wise was a notch above all but the best Mexican wrestlers. There wasn't a lot of Panther vs. Hamada exchanges in this, which was strange because the upshot of it all was that Hamada issued a challenge for Panther's mask while Sevilla demanded a wager with Negro, but the exchanges we did get between Panther and Hamada were promising and suggested other matches of theirs out there where they lit things up. This followed a generic tag structure of matwork in the first fall, rudo brawling/dominance in the second, and high flying in the third. It had its high points like Guerrero Negro single-handedly winning the second fall by almost putting Hamada on the shelf with a botched double leg takedown on Hamada then getting the same takedown right on Sevilla and following it up with a neat submission. There was also some cool teamwork on a Negro tope where Panther gave him an irish whip assist. Negro sold the tope like he'd wrecked his shoulder, which he may well have. I tend to come out of most Monterrey matches thinking "well, that could have been better," and lucha tags are underwhelming at the best of times, but this had its moments here and there. There was a time when Monterrey meant a lot more money in your pocket, but by this stage it was an extra date and an extra payday. La Parka, Octagon, Latin Lover, Rey Mysterio Jr. vs. Blue Panther, Fuerza Guerrera, Pentagon, Psicosis (AAA 7/28/95) Everybody knows AAA isn't my favourite type of lucha so I'm not going to get into that again, but I actually enjoyed this. The opening exchanges between Octagon and Pentagon were awful, but as soon as the ring was cleared of that pair the bout was snappy and entertaining. Originally, I was going to write it up for Your Fuerza Guerrera of the Hour, but it was closer to Your La Parka of the hour. His former partners were lining up to get their shots in, but nothing they did could stop him from dancing. Fuerza vs. Parka was awesome and worthy of a singles match. Psicosis was his usual dynamic self (and really, I don't think it ever got better for him than during this AAA run), and Mysterio also looked sharp. The only member of this crew that really delivered below expectations was Pentagon. I'm a big fan of Espanto Jr., but he had an off night here. That was all right as the match moved on without him and the third caida dive train was full of all sorts of goodness. Rey and Psicosis brought a bit more of their touring match act to Mexico than I'm used to seeing and it gelled nicely with the send 'em home happy nature of the third caida. There wasn't much of a through line as the Pentagon/Octagon stuff fell part, but two thumbs up for this. Bestia Salvaje/La Fiera/Jerry Estrada vs. Huracan Sevilla/Blue Demon Jr./El Hijo del Solitario (1/17/92) This was another chapter in the lead-in to the Huracan Sevilla vs. Bestia hair match; a match I may be higher on than any other person on the internet if not the planet. Bestia was an elite worker at this point and able to carry a trios with only a limited number of appearances. Who brings Blue Demon Jr and El Hijo del Solitario to a fight? I've said that before about Sevilla. He was left with the dregs when it came to partners while Bestia had his running mates with him each time. A guy like Matt D would love the snear Fiera has on his face the first time he squares off with Solitario. The brawling exchanges between Bestia and Sevilla were outstanding here and a focal point throughout. Bestia was clearly higher in the pecking order and made no bones about it, but Sevilla got to make a valiant comeback. Eventually, he was overwhelmed and bled about as heavily as was possible in 1992. Someone in the crowd offered Sevilla a tissue, but Bestia was too busy beating his ass. Blue Demon Jr. and Solitario actually managed a pair of cool looking topes (in real time that is; Solitaro looked to have overshot his badly on the replay), but the tecnico reply was snuffed out by a clever Bestia and the rudos took round one in the march to the apuestas. Remo Banda/Aguila Solitaria vs. Leon Chino/Comando Ruso (5/4/90) Remo Banda is the greatest looking motherfucker in lucha ever. He looks like the sixth member of the Blue Oyster Cult. I've enjoyed the Leon Chino I've seen before but he was the third best guy in this. Ruso was the consummate journeyman and carried Solitaria through some pretty looking arm drag exchanges. This bout was a lot of fun. In many ways, it was the type of bout that shows the essence of lucha. Banda had taken Russo's hair earlier that year, but you'd hardly notice it from the bout. Their job was to put on an undercard match that entertained the fans and they achieved that by working quintessential lucha exchanges. The hardest of hardcore fans would enjoy the staples they ran through here. A nice piece of undercard wrestling, which isn't something that gets a ton of love in lucha circles. Atlantis/Shocker/Satanico vs. Tarzan Boy/Ultimo Guerrero/Rey Bucanero (2/1/02) A while back, Matt D tried to tell me this was better than the classic 1997 minis trios. I can see why Matt liked it more according to his philosophies, but that's not an idea I'm going to entertain. Instead I'll focus on the fact that it was a pretty good bout. The version I watched was slightly sped up in the first and second falls, but even with the video quality issues I could tell this was a fairly classic brawling trios. There were more moves-per-fall than in a classic lead-in trios, but the gist was the same. I was impressed with Satanico during the bout. As big a Satanico fan as I am, I kind of give up on him around 1996-97 and haven't see much of his later stuff. In fact, elliot from the board has probably seen more Satanico than me at this point. I didn't think this was overly special in the context of all the brawling trios lead-in bouts I've seen before, but it was plenty entertaining and a sign that 00s Satanico might be worth exploring.
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Their Champion Carnival bout from '94.
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I liked the Kana match from 2010 a lot, though it was a bit "on the nose" with its transitions. I can see how Meiko's stiff strike-based style appeals, though. Her submission work is good as well and her moves have plenty of impact. Kana was pretty good as well if not wholly organic. Will watch more.
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I liked the Felino mask vs. mask match, but the title matches are underwhelming. Ramirez would have needed a much longer run to be a significant part of the lucha bloc. I doubt Solar will make the list and he's had a considerably better career. Hell, I'm not sure that Ramirez was better than Huracán Sevilla or Mano Negra.
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[1994-04-11-AJPW-Championship Carnival] Stan Hansen vs Akira Taue
ohtani's jacket replied to Loss's topic in April 1994
Man, was that Taue match good. For a man the size of Hansen to sell that well was phenomenal. The thing that impressed me most was his comeback. One of my least favourite things in wrestling is when a guy takes a beating for what seems like an eternity and then the comeback starts and all of a sudden it's even stevens. The way Hansen worked his way back into the match here was as believable as it gets. He was basically like a wounded animal fighting and clawing his way out, Taue was fabulous as well. He could've easily oversold it, but instead he sold it just right, weathering the storm and not letting his opportunity to topple Hansen slip. Taue was on point in this bout. The opening exchange took me aback. What a great start to the bout. Almost like sumo brawling.- 20 replies
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Man was that Taue match good. For a man the size of Hansen to sell that well was phenomenal. The thing that impressed me most was his comeback. One of my least favourite things in wrestling is when a guy takes a beating for what seems like an eternity and then the comeback starts and all of a sudden it's even stevens. The way Hansen worked his way back into the match here was as believable as it gets. He was basically like a wounded animal fighting and clawing his way out, Taue was fabulous as well. He could've easily oversold it, but instead he sold it just right, weathering the storm and not letting his opportunity to topple Hansen slip. Taue was on point in this bout. The opening exchange took me aback. What a great start to the bout. Almost like sumo brawling.
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Watched the 11/94 Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue match, which I'm not sure I'd seen before. Kawada and Taue certainly did work as heels here and Kawada was much more aggressive and niggly. I wonder how many of my perceptions of Kawada are based on this tag feud. As for the match, I kind of drifted in and out of it. It was good, but I say that as more of an acknowledgement than with any real conviction. I wouldn't say they were going through the motions, but it was a standard All Japan tag and that involves a lot of the same old stuff. As usual my interest was piqued during the finishing stretch, but they weren't up for a big run home on this particular night and were booked into a corner anyway w/ the draw. I haven't watched All Japan for a while and Kobashi and Taue seemed foreign to me. Misawa didn't look anywhere near as good as the last time I watched him either. Personally, I need to be in the groove to watch individual styles of wrestling otherwise I zone out a bit, but nobody really struck me as delivering a world class performance on this night.
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A poor finish generally sours me on a match, particularly if I've watching something random as it makes it seem like a waste of time. If it's a match I'm enjoying I can go both ways -- either sorely disappointed or philosophical -- but I don't think I've ever shrugged off a bad finish and thought "oh well." I may not be fussed if the match is mediocre, but they're almost always annoying and a match would almost always better with a proper finish. We spend a lot of time talking about the way matches build and by that we mean the way they build to a conclusion. If the conclusion's poor then it has an effect on the rest of the match. BS finishes can be effective if they're heated and well executed. I like a good BS finish if it's done right.
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From memory, Arn was amazing in 1992. I had him and Steamboat as joint MVPs for that year during my WCW viewing. But after '93 he was average by his own standards. Not sure if that equated to bad matches, but nothing I saw from Arn in '95 against Alex Wright, etc. left much of an impression on me and that was a year where I was actively looking for anything good from a severely weak year. There was the Stars and Stripes tag w/Vader, but no singles matches of note.
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Hashimoto vs. Tanaka was fun. Not sure I'd include it in his greatest hits parade, but if you want to see him deliver a full on ass kicking it's worth watching.
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I'm also not that fond of Hansen's 80s All Japan work. But I'm not all that fond of the house style either and I think that compounds things.
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Dunno if you've seen it Phil, but there's another Cesca singles match out there against Rene Ben Chemoul.
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The 1994 Carnival final is a great match. I don't know if I've fully appreciated it up until now. Again, there's a noticeable lift in intensity from Kawada. Every move is sold as though as it means something, and not in a self-conscious way, but because the stakes are so high and the jeopardy increases as the match progresses. I realise he was working against a bigger American, but again I was surprised by how much Kawada worked from underneath. He's nowhere near as aggressive as I imagined, or recollected, even when he's working from the top. Not compared with Tenryu. He was working as a total babyface, which is to be expected under the circumstances, but he strikes me as a bit more cerebral than the likes of Hashimoto or Tenryu whereas before I would have paired them as naturally aggressive workers. Williams also sold well. He had good chemistry with Kawada despite, or perhaps because of, them not getting along outside the ring, but something clicked with him in '94 and he realised how he could use his size and strength to full effect. It reminds me of watching a football player (whether it be rugby or American football) who's a pretty good player and then finally discovers beast mode.
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The 1994 Carnival final is a great match. I don't know if I've fully appreciated it up until now. Again, there's a noticeable lift in intensity from Kawada. Every move is sold as though as it means something, and not in a self-conscious way, but because the stakes are so high and the jeopardy increases as the match progresses. I realise he was working against a bigger American, but again I was surprised by how much Kawada worked from underneath. He's nowhere near as aggressive as I imagined, or recollected, even when he's working from the top. Not compared with Tenryu. He was working as a total babyface, which is to be expected under the circumstances, but he strikes me as a bit more cerebral than the likes of Hashimoto or Tenryu whereas before I would have paired them as naturally aggressive workers. Williams also sold well. He had good chemistry with Kawada despite, or perhaps because of, them not getting along outside the ring, but something clicked with him in '94 and he realised how he could use his size and strength to full effect. It reminds me of watching a football player (whether it be rugby or American football) who's a pretty good player and then finally discovers beast mode.