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Everything posted by ohtani's jacket
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Gran Cochisse, bad worker or just another guy?
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in The Microscope
Gran Cochisse, Villano III y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. vs. Fishman, Mocho Cota y Tony Bennetto (EMLL, 11/30/84) This made the DVDVR set and with good reason. This was an excellent lead-in match to the following week's Cota vs. Cochisse hair match. The Cota vs. Cochisse segments were excellent. Cota bumped the way you'd expect him to, but Cochisse brought the gristle and grit. I had a hard time finding any fault in his performance here. He was an older guy who looked like a Mexican Wahoo McDaniel and was a tough, no-nonsense foil for the flamboyant Cota. He's clearly the dude from the Satanico match and not some bum. The rest of the guys chip in and make this a cracking bout. Cochisse is 2-0 so far. -
Jose Luis Feliciano/Black Terry/Mr. Terror vs. Silver King/Asterisco/Centurion Negro (Monterrey 1991) Woo, Black Terry! And Jose Luis Feliciano too! This wasn't a particularly outstanding match, more of a scrap really, but a 1991 Black Terry match ain't nothing to sneeze at. He has a fun exchange with Centurion Negro, and later on he does a dive, which was something he was known for in his younger days.
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What the fuck has happened to Smackdown? I mean, seriously, who is booking this shit? Angle is booked to wrestle Big Show at No Mercy, so he uses a tranquillizer dart to knock Big Show out and shave his head. This is interpreted as "raping Big Show's dignity," which is an awful line. They work a crappy bout that has a restart, a throwback to the tranquillizer angle, and no redeeming factors whatsoever. There's no doubt in my mind that Eddie vs. Big Show would have been a better match, but he was stuck working against Luther Reigns. It's kind of sad watching Smackdown slide this far.
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Bob Backlund vs. Don Muraco (WWF, 9/21/81) I felt like watching a Backlund vs Muraco match and this was the first one that came up in my search. I don't harbor any negative feelings towards Muraco as the last footage I saw of him was his work in Florida, which was fun stuff, and there's no way I'm getting my knickers in a twist over a WWF Texas Death Match. It's a no-DQ match. Get over it. Random thoughts watching this match... Bob Backlund knows how to fuck a motherfucker up. Is he the most dangerous babyface champion of all-time? I love how weird Backlund is. Every time he wrenched on a hold, he'd let out a "whoaaa" that served little to no purpose. I guess it may have pissed Muraco off. Vince was great at doing these solo calls, but I wonder what he really thought of the matches. It kind of sounded like this bout bored him, but he tried his best to sell it. I love this era where the Intercontinental champion is hellbent on challenging the World champion. I wish that was still a thing. I liked how the ref missed seeing Muraco's foot on the ropes during the finish, and how they didn't do a Dusty finish and overturn the ruling. Given how often the heels use the ropes to win, it's poetic justice when they have a legit foot on the rppes that the ref doesn't see. I enjoyed this non-classic match.
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Cheers for that fellas. El Texano/Silver King/Centurion Negro vs. Mongol Chino/Scorpio Jr y Sr (Monterrey 1991) Roy mislabeled this as Texano, Silver King and El Dandy ;( This was a dull rudo-led bout. It seemed a waste to have wrestlers the calibre of Texano and Silver King work this sort of bout, but the crowd loved it and there were a few decent spots where the rudos got their comeuppance. Texano shone even in this sort of environment, and the fluffing about at the end between Centurion Negro and Mongol Chino was moderately entertaining. This felt like house show lucha, but it also felt like the most quintessential Monterrey bout yet.
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The Teddy Boys tag team were Adolphe Sevre and Robert Le Boulch. I'm fairly certain it's Sevre in the Aledo match.
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Los Brazos vs. Pirata Morgan/El Satanico/Justiciero (Monterrey 1991) This was a fairly standard trios match. There were some cool moments where Satanico and Morgan teamed up to work the Brazos over, but Justiciero couldn't quite fill the MS-1 role. It seemed like Porky vs Pirata would be the main match up, but in the tercera it was Satanico doing the stooging. Satanico was pretty good in this overall. Better than Pirata, which surprised me going into the bout. He matched up with Brazo de Oro well, but overall this was Porky heavy and basically a subpar Brazos match.
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Negro Casas/Emilio Charles Jr/El Signo vs. El Dandy/Gran Hamada/Angel Azteca (Monterrey 1991) Hold up, Casas and Dandy wrestled each other before their '92 feud? Before I get into this, there's two things I should mention -- it's JIP in the first fall, and the recording cuts out before the end of the third fall. That may bother some folks, but it doesn't phase me as this is a fever dream of a match. This Monterrey footage has given us a lot of cool CMLL and UWA mashups, but there's not a single match up in this bout that isn't seat of your pants good. It's a slow burner at heart, but oh my god, Casas vs. Dandy, Casas vs. Hamada, Emilio vs. Azteca, Signo vs. Hamada, Emilio vs. Dandy.. I'd be happy with one of those match-ups, yet here we get constant switch ups between six great workers. Casas vs Dandy is mind-blowing to begin with, but Hamada vs. Casas may be the fastest exchanges I've ever seen Casas work, and Emilio is like a pig in mud. He gives a throwback performance that's as good as his '88-89 work. What a tour de force.
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Eddy Guerrero/Centurion Negro/Solar II vs. Lenador/Javier Cruz/Alarcan (Monterrey 1991) Holy crap, is Eddie clean shaven in this match? That's surreal. Who would have thought that this kid in some random Monterrey match would go on to be a world champ in the States? Lenador was fun to watch, albeit slightly eccentric. One of the best things about this footage dump is that we get to see locals we've never heard of before. Well, I'm assuming they're locals. They're guys I've never heard of before. It struck me watching this that I've never really formed an opinion of Solar II. I think he should have tried another gimmick as every time I see his name listed, I think, "oh, it's the other Solar." I remember when we first started devouring the '89-90 EMLL tapes that myself and others rated Javier Cruz highly. For some reason, he was pushed down the card in the Pena era despite being a solid hand. He wasn't great in this, but it was still cool to see Cruz mixing it up with Eddie. Decent match but nothing really stood out.
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The Beginner's Guide To British Wrestling
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in Megathread archive
Not only that, but the most famous wrestling priests are in Mexico. Still, the idea of a wrestling vicar adds to the charm of old-school British wrestling. -
The Beginner's Guide To British Wrestling
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in Megathread archive
I am fairly sure Brooks was a Methodist minister and not an Anglican. -
Ringo Mendoza/Hombre Bala/Gran Cochisse vs. El Supremo/Enfermero Jr./Talisman (EMLL, 1/27/84) Does Gran Cochisse look like a bad worker in this match? Absolutely not. He does a good job of setting up the beef he has with Enfermero Jr while working with El Supremo and later on he does a great job of selling a beating at the hands of Enfermero while also getting his licks in. Is he the worst worker in the bout? Nope. No-one really looks bad in this bout. The younger workers like Mendoza and Talisman are crisper than Cochisse, but Cochisse is the one driving the narrative forward and at the end of the day its his bladejob and the screwiness of the finish that is the talking point of an otherwise forgettable EMLL bout from 1985. People sometimes assume that anyone can work an apuestas feud, but it's not always the case. I didn't see anything from Cochisse here that suggested anything other than 100% commitment to the upcoming revenge bout. Bad worker? Not today, my friend.
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Pirata Morgan/Hombre Bala/Verdugo vs. Apolo Estrada/Rudy Reyna/Tony Reyna (Monterrey 1989) Apolo Estrada vs. a 1989 Pirata Morgan, book it! I don't think I would've enjoyed this quite as much if I hadn't had a couple of Apolo Estrada matches under my belt already. Morgan was a wrestling god in 1989, and his new trio were almost as slick as the Infernales. This was a chance for Estrada to measure himself against one of the best in the business and our local hero had plenty of pluck, I'll give him that much. I couldn't quite figure out if his partners were a pair of exoticos, or a brother supporting his exotiico sibling, but they were up against it facing the Bucaneros.
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The thing is, I'm not sure why you'd expect Panther and Atlantis to work like that. Maybe Panther could have worked more like an aggressive rudo technician and forced Atlantis to more. Atlantis definitely wasn't going to be the aggressor, not in a match that had barely any set up. I feel like you're penalizing both workers for things that really aren't their strong suit. I would understand the complaints if this was an exhibition style match, but it's not. There's clear progression. You don't get the great selling or the great details of other lucha title matches, but for context, how many of those matches are worked between two masked workers and what are the better title matches from this era between two masked workers? Does Panther have a better title match than from the same time period? How about Atlantis? I don't know if I believe in a common standard for title matches. Shouldn't title matches between two rudos or tecnicos be different from tecnico vs. rudo title matches? Aren't there cases where you have a rudo-led title match, a tecnico-driven title match, a brawling title match, a clean title match, a bullshit-laden title match? There isn't one single way to work a trios match, so I don't see why there would be one ideal way to work a title match. My point really is to take Panther vs Atlantis on its own merits.
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I'm going to have to watch some stuff and judge for myself. I think it's a slippery slope when we start saying workers are bad because we can't find any other matches where they look as good as they did in one particular bout, but I will watch whatever I can find. The Cota and Hamada matches you refer to are they the Japanese TV footage or has something new dropped that I'm unaware of?
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Gran Markus Jr/Monje Negro/Milo Caballero vs. El Dandy/Apolo Estrada/Monarca (Monterrey 1989) This was a chance to see Dandy in Monterrey during his classic period. Unfortunately, the footage was JIP during the segunda caida and what we got wasn't much of a match. Dandy was lighter than the other workers in the match so was mostly thrown about by the heavyweights. The bout was mostly centered around Gran Markus Jr vs Apolo Estrada, which wasn't bad. I feel like I'm watching some kind of weird territory I've never seen before when I watch these Apolo Estrada matches. He's not the greatest worker, but I kind of dig his mannerisms. Milo Caballero was a rudo here. Personally, I prefer his tecnico work, and now I officially have a stance on Milo Caballero.
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Panther wasn’t the same type of rudo as Cora, Satanico or Casas. If he’d spent more of his career unmasked, he may have eventually been as good as Bestia Salvaje, though I kind of doubt it as Panther never really struck me as a guy who had much in the way of performing chops. I’m not sure why they made him work rudo so often other than his ability to carry young tecnicos. Perhaps it was his own personal preference. Whatever the case, compare this match to a feud like Panther vs Love Machine, and it’s obvious to me that he doesn’t have the chops for the latter type of feud in the way that a Casas or Fuerza Guerrera would. It’s not the type of Panther match that I want to see. I want to see Panther vs. Atlantis, or Santo, or Charlie Lucero. There is room in lucha to have a pure technical bout, especially in a title bout. There’s no law that says to be a great title match you need to have great character work and a ton of drama in the tercera. Those things are nice, but there’s also skill-based lucha where there doesn’t need to be huge amounts of drama. I can imagine Solar vs Atlantis being worked along these lines whereas Solar vs Pirate Morgan or Satanico would be an entirely different bout. The latter type of bout leans more heavily towards the apuestas bouts that some people prefer to lucha title matches. I get that, but I hope more people will grow to appreciate the beauty of this match. The ‘97 match is a wonderful contrast as its much grittier and shows how much lucha has changed in the preceding six years. I love both matches as a set and would take them over pretty much any other lucha if Noah built an ark and we were only allowed to save two lucha matches. Either that or the famous minis title match and trios bout.
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When I watch Inoki, I’m looking for mat heavy bouts that contain a lot of striking and quasi-shoot style work. I can’t stand Inoki matches against foreign guys unless they’re early in his JWA days or against a guy like Backlund. There are a lot of Inoki vs. foreign guy matches out there, and those are matches that people gravitate towards because they’re names they know. Those matches tend to inform most of the opinion surrounding Inoki. A lot of Inoki vs. native matches seem innately boring to the average fan despite their merits. Throw in the crazy stories people hear, and the prevailing image of him being the Hulk Hogan of Japan and holding other wrestlers down, and you have the basis for the lack of enthusiasm surrounding Inoki as a worker. I don’t think he was some super genius as a worker, but I like the aura surrounding younger Inoki as an athlete and a fighter, and there are select matches I like. He was pretty good in the early years of NJPW in terms of brawling with foreigners as it was an extension of the stuff he’d done in JWA, but after the proto-MMA stuff takes off, it’s hard to watch him fighting run of the mill foreign guys. Hashimoto is similar in the sense that I’m looking for something specific from him and it’s actually quite minimalist. I’d rather watch Hashimoto have a low key struggle with a Fujiwara or Regal than a Tokyo Dome main event. I don’t mind his mat work, largely because it’s Hashimoto doing it so I can get behind it. I don’t think a dude his size is going to be a naturally gifted athlete, but he can still be effective. I don’t like post-98 Hashimoto much outside of the odd performance here and there. I think the Ogawa feud killed his career and he was never the same afterward. it’s a tough choice, but if you were to tell me there was a great undiscovered Inoki and Hashimoto match out there, and I could only choose one of them, I’d have to go with Inoki at this stage.
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This is such a beautiful lucha libre match. The argument that it needs character work or escalation makes me wonder if people can appreciate beauty for beauty’s sake. It’s a silly argument as well because you have two characters and there’s clear escalators because it’s a two out of three falls match. Why does there have to be “storytelling” within a title match? What does that mean? Would this have been a better match if they had bled and torn each others’ masks? The beauty of this match is that it’s the entire opposite of those lucha tropes. It’s about as pure a lucha match as you can imagine. There’s no need to sully it with storytelling. That’s what happened in AAA and the results weren’t great.
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Apolo Estrada vs. Negro Navarro (Monterrey 1989) This may be the best Misioneros era Navarro match we have on tape. In fact, it may be the best pre-2001 Navarro match we have. Navarro looks far more comfortable at this state as a rudo brawler than a technical wrestler or a trios worker. If Estrada is the same guy that’s on Luchawiki then he died the following year of a brain tumor, which is crazy. The match grew better as if went along and ended being a pretty cool example of how to put a local guy over in a non-apuesta match.
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Gran Hamada/Silver King/El Texano vs Dr. Wagner Jr/Indomito/Babe Face (Monterrey 1991 This was a slower paced match that finished with a flurry. It continued the Texano vs Indomito feud. If you knew Indomito up until now, it was probably as one of the replacements for Texano in the Misioneros. Steve Sims didn’t have great things to say about that in Texano’s obit, but it turns out we didn’t know 1991 lucha as well as thought we did, as this is great stuff regardless of how well it drew. Hamada vs Babe Face is also great, but you expect that with their history. Texano may be a top 10 lucha worker for ‘91 after it’s all said and done
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I hated the Santo/Felino Monterey match but everyone else loves it. I need to check that out again.
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Kato Kung Lee/Texano/Villanos IV y V vs Indomito/Signo/Tigre Blanco/Negro Navarro (Monterrey 1991) This was a fun match. Texano was a tecnico here and a large part of the bout was focused on the rudos targeting him, and his matchup with Indomito, who was rocking S&M Demolition gear. Texano was such a great worker. I swear if there was more footage available of him, we’d talk about him in the same breath as Pirate Morgan and other greats from this era. Keep track of the work he does in this match. It’s phenomenal given the stakes. Everyone else is dependable. I love Signo and he always matches up well with Villano IV. Navarro wasn’t as good as he was during his maestro days but was solid. Kato Kung Lee did some decent Super Astro style schtick. The only weak participant was Tigre Blanco. Indomito worked hard, bladed, and took ate a couple of piledrivers. I could see him winning some fans. However, for me this was all about Texano, and I’m glad we have another match that shows how great he was.
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What makes you say that Cochisse was a bad wrestler? He was already in his early 40s here and had been wrestling since the late 60s. By the time we get regular footage in ‘89, he is low on the card and barely featured. Is he bad in the rest of the footage we have of him? Or simply not as good as he looked in the match against Satanico? He had a number of big singles matches in the late 70s and early 80s that makes me doubt that the Satanico match is an outlier.
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The Beginner's Guide To British Wrestling
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in Megathread archive
Well, that's another point to consider. The matches were being wrestled in town halls not arenas. I can't remember if they used a bigger ring at Wembley Arena. If you think the rings are bad, you should check out the title belts.