Tim Cooke

Misawa vs. Jumbo is so very close in terms of their great years and their off-years that it’s almost futile to argue. It really comes down to personal preference because they are so similar. Jumbo was really good from the get go. Jumbo worked potential MOTYC’s against Brisco in 74, Baba in 75, Funk in ’76, Race and Mascaras in ’77. Misawa wasn’t a hit right off the bat but Jumbo’s greatness from the start is more of an outlier of how great he was, rather than a detriment to Misawa’s career. Jumbo goes missing, at least for me, in the early 80’s. He has some good matches but nothing that stands out like those matches from the 70’s. It’s not the Meltzer argument “Jumbo was lazy” more than it was the style All Japan was working in the early 80’s. Their really wasn’t much growth or change from the late 70’s until Choshu arrived in December ’84. The style felt static. It wasn’t as bad as modern day WWE (which can be tediously static week in, week out) but it wasn’t great. Misawa’s early years as Tiger Mask II weren’t great in the context of the time period and certainly don’t hold water today. But once he unmasks, he takes a huge leap forward in quality. Part of that is being able to work with Jumbo and Fuchi night in and night out and part was being surrounded by hungry young talent in Kawada, Kobashi, and Kikuchi. By 1993, Misawa is clearly great and history underrates him slightly because Kawada and Kobashi just happened to start peaking around the same time, with different qualities from the stoic, “thinking” Misawa (Kobashi with his charisma and Kawada with his general character). From 93-98, is there a more consistent performer? Kobashi and Kawada aside, probably not. If we had Jumbo footage on a weekly basis from 1974-1979, he might give Misawa a run for a five year period of just phenomenal output but we don’t. Both guys will make my top 20 and both will most likely be top 10 (and are probably on the short list as top 5 candidates).

Re watched this the other night. I'm back and forth between this and the 2/4 Tamura vs. Kohsaka match for the best worked shoot match of the 2000's. This may be the easiest introduction for someone looking to get into shoot style who isn't familiar with UWF, UWF 2.0, PWFG, UWFI, and RINGS.

Murakami vs. Ishikawa from 11/26/00 in Battlarts is a fantastic match, though it doesn't have much mat work

Does anyone have a scanned copy of Grant Z's WON Index?

First 10 minutes with Ogawa out wrestling Kobashi is a ton of fun. The middle portion of the match slows, especially once the blood dries up from Ogawa's posting. Finish stretch is solid. Kind of wish they cut out 6-7 minutes and just went from Ogawa being quicker and smarter earlier than Kobashi and his comeuppance being mauled by Kobashi. It's the first year MLB pitcher taking a shut out into the 6th before he gets to the heart of the line up for the third time and then lets up 4-5 runs very quickly. Doesn't take away from his first 5 innings (Ogawa) but shows who the better hitting team is (Kobashi). This match had the guy go 5 innings, get in trouble in the 6th but get out of it with only 2 runs, and then have to leave the game after giving up 3 runs in the seventh without getting an out.

Terrific performance from SUWA. I wish it was Rey Jr. or Eddy in as the face because that would made for the better wrestling portion of the match. After the awesome opening with the initial schtick, the middle slows until SUWA picks it back up to get the crowd into the near fall stretch. SUWA is one of those "what if's" of the 2000's.

This may be the best passing of the torch/final showdown match I've seen. By this point, Misawa was on his last legs and puts in a heck of a performance, doing all of his usual flying. There is a lot of head dropping but at this point, especially in retrospect but even in 2003 context, it is done much better than Misawa/Kawada 6/6/97 or Misawa/Kobashi 6/99. The Tiger Suplex off the ramp is the memorable spot of the match and it is sold well enough, getting a decent near fall once both guys make it back into the ring. Misawa's eyes when he just can't put Kobashi away is an awesome visual. It may have been a result of his body being totally wrecked but nonetheless it was impressive. MOTYC for 2003. This is why we need the Yearbooks for 2000-2004. 2003-2004 was the beginning of the transition from tape to DVD and though the big matches (like this) were well circulated, I'm still not sure that all the big matches have been seen, not to mention the hidden gems.

Yea, that's right. Forgot 94 was a work.

You are right about Scorpio Jr. being "off." He worked so well as part of the team with Salvaje because Bestia could wrestle/brawl/etc. but Scorpio Jr. brought that intangible, "I don't like this guy and won't cheer for anything he does" that wrestling has always needed (and really needs today).

Misawa was legit hurt in the 1994 Champions Carnival. Since he was already in the tournament and the tournament was meticulously booked as these things are in Japan, they kept him in. He was scheduled to go to a 30:00 draw with Misawa, which they did but Misawa couldn't do much and it's one of the worse Misawa/Kawada matches to go with 6/97, 7/99, and 7/05.

"That may not be totally unfair, but at the same time it is sort of unfair. I've watched pimped lucha matches with lucha darlings that feature egregiously bad selling that would get a guy like Davey Richards mocked and gif'd, but the expectation bias isn't there, so it gets glossed over." Selling is not universal. All Japan Women sell differently from modern CMLL wrestlers (who differ from their elders in the 80's). Japanese Shoot Style has a different style of selling. All I ask for in regards to selling is some type of consistency within the style/promotion. I'm curious to know what pimped lucha matches contain Davey Richards level selling/moves/psychology?

RINGS was primarily a worked company through mid-1996. They occasionally had an undercard kickboxing match or prelim shoot prior to that, but they were rarer. Shoots started to appear more regularly, at a higher frequency by July 1996. The August 1996 card has 2-3 shoots (maybe even 4, can't remember off the top of my head at work). The promotion became all shoot in October 1999, though it was 60-70% shoot by February 1999. I'll add more to this tonight but here are the questionable fights which can be argued either way: 8/96 Tamura vs. Smith 12/96 Tamura vs. Yamamoto 4/97 Tamura vs. Kohsaka 6/99 Tamura vs. Yamamoto (I lean towards work) [edit 1: U-Style started because Tamura was starting to get beat regularly in PRIDE and his financial backers felt he still had some drawing power left. The promotion only ran Korakuen Hall in 2003/2004 and every show that Tamura was on drew fairly well, but the one he wasn't on 10/6/03 drew 900. By 2003/2004, the Japanese had seen what real fighting looked like and knew what exciting, real fighting looked like with Pride, K-1, Shooto so U-Style was more of a nostalgic thing.]

Watched the main event from the Korakuen Hall show after reading some thoughts about it here and on twitter. I enjoyed it for what it was but had also read that it was comparable to the 90's AJPW 6 man tags. I obviously didn't go in with expectations of it coming close to the two best Korakuen Hall 6 man tags of the 90's (10/28/90 and 4/20/91) but Korakuen Hall crowds still deliver today so I was looking forward to seeing what they did. The good: * Good heat and as mentioned above, the Tanahashi/Okada tag in got a big pop * Chaos did a nice job mixing in double and triple teams that didn't drift into that excessive US Indy/Dragon Gate triple teams where they run through so many, so quickly that it becomes mind numbing * They went about the right length, didn't get excessive, and left me wanting to see more - which is the point of almost all non-Mexico trios matches The not-so-good (wouldn't say these things were bad, but they stood out to me): * When to save and when to kick out. There were a few times in the match where it was clear the crowd was ready to pop big for a kick out but there was a save by a team mate that lessened or negated whatever heat was coming from the crowd. This shouldn't be a problem with wrestlers who have this much experience but it was something that jumped out at me right away * The Goto/Ishii elbow exchanges. These were much more reserved than what you would see in anything in NOAH post 2001, so that is a positive in itself, but great strike exchanges add to a match. This didn't add anything. I list the not so good because it goes hand in hand with the AJPW trios matches comparison. The only comparison I could see is that they used 6 of their main stars in a trios match at the top of a Korakuen Hall show. Structurally, they got the pairings right but instead of milking the Tanahashi/Okada tag in the third segment or starting them off against each other (Misawa/Jumbo and Misawa/Kawada usually did the opening pair off or the third exchange - can't remember an instance of them going second but obviously don't remember every AJPW trios from memory), they decided to go second. The pop Tanahashi and Okada got was good but it felt like a missed opportunity if they would have had Goto and Ishii go second. A small gripe and not something that really means a lot in the overall scheme of things but something that definitely keeps it from even approaching the AJPW trios matches status. The top rung (10/28/90 and 4/20/91) and middle rung (5/26/90, 8/18/90, 10/15/91, and 1/24/92) Korakuen Hall AJPW trios matches leave this in the dust for overall heat, moves, execution, and story progression. That's really not a knock against this match since the first two (and 10/15/91) would all rank as historically great for me personally but it also doesn't jive with the AJPW trios comparison. I've watched and enjoyed a fair amount of New Japan this year. Would have been interesting to see a more junior member in on the Tanahashi/Shibata team, specifically someone like Homna, who killed it with Ishii in the G-1. That would have given the match that Fuchi/Ogawa/Kikuchi/Akiyama dynamic that really helped something like the 10/15/91 match, where Misawa was legit injured so he couldn't work much so his team was essentially Kawada and Kikuchi going up against the "A" squad from Jumbo's side. That's fantasy booking and I'm not holding it against the match in the context of 2014, but as a comparison to the 90's matches, it's a valid point. I would probably go ***1/4, which in 2014 is something well worth watching for me. I watched this with Paul, who has watched almost every New Japan show this year and he was even a little lower, going about ***.

His AAA matches in '03-'06 are at the very least entertaining, at best excellent. 2/16/03 vs Mini Abismo Negro 2004 (date unknown) vs Mini Abismo Negro The 8 person mixed tags, including the Hustle 4 one Was in a ton of great stuff in CMLL as well when he jumped

I just came into this thread to write, "Come jump on this old man." Should have known Loss would have that covered. Great line, great delivery.

December 2002 - July 2006 for me. Danielson vs. London live in December 2002 was the first time I saw that ROH had the ability to do something special. When WCW died, I didn't think I would see that again (which is stupid in retrospect but it was how I felt at the time). They topped themselves that April with Epic Encounter and regardless of tomk and Naylor starting the whole dueling chants thing, this was when I really started to think there was something special. This was also the first show with the lights. My favorite consecutive individual period would be July 2004 - December 2004. Danielson vs. Aries going 75 minutes was fun to watch live, just to see what they were going to do. MX Reunion was one of the best live shows I have seen. Punk vs. Joe II on tape was excellent. Seeing Liger live twice in 2004 was awesome. Punk vs. Joe III was a heck of a match on tape. And then Aries vs. Joe at Final Battle had an amazing final five minutes. ROH kind of peaked for me those last five minutes. It's funny because the first 7-8 minutes of the match have much less heat for two guys who were very over but the stretch run was absolutely nuts. 2005 had Kobashi/Joe, Summer of Punk, and some other decent things but they weren't able to capture the feel of 2004 for me on a show by show basis. Loved the CZW feud in 2006 but by the end of 2006, I was no longer purchasing every show on DVD and by the end of 2007, it was more common to not buy a DVD.

Chanting 'this is wrestling' when a wrestler does something wrestling related that the crowd likes is the equivalent of chanting 'this is baseball' during a well played game. No shit it's baseball, no shit it's wrestling. And that chant is a direct sub chant of 'This is awesome'. No 'get off my lawn' sentiment here, it's just ridiculous in almost every case. Joe vs. Kobashi, a match that I like so much that it may finish 1-2 in the best indy matches of the 2000's, has an audible, if not loud 'Can't see shit' because the fans think they are more important than what is going on during the show. Again, go back to baseball and when fans boo their own player or moan and groan about a bad pitch or play, the FANS become the center of attention and that serves no purpose other than to show 'I want to be the center of attention.' Hecklers at comedy shows are more or less doing the attention seeking thing. I've seen Seinfeld live numerous times and I don't break into a 'this is awesome' chant after he nails his fourth joke in a row. At concerts, if the audience breaks into a 'this is awesome' chant during the middle of a song, that makes no sense. You want the crowd to be energized, singing, dancing, etc. as a performer but not chanting. Do audiences chant 'please come back' she they want an encore? No, they keep cheering and clapping, and screaming which are all the qualities of really great wrestling heat. I blame ECW for most of this but then again, I blame ECW for a lot of what has gone wrong in US wrestling.

Same thing with me. I don't dislike him but after re-reading that thread, I thought I was missing out on something in my initial viewing. Definitely agreed with some points as his actual match layout structure for longer matches could be very strong, but the execution wasn't always there. Kind of like reading Dean's Matsunaga review from the mid 2000's. Awesome review, so awesome that the review blows away the actual matches.

This wasn't a serious thing - it was Danielson as heel playing up to a stereotype and playing with the crowd, and them loving it. The crowd were just playing their role as part of the gimmick and feeling like they were involved in the product. This sounds so counter-productive that I don't know what to think of this. It was just ROH back then. The heels never got any proper heat, aside from maybe Jimmy Rave. So they turned Danielson in a sort of 'wink, wink' sort of way, where he would play up to heel stereotypes and all the things ROH fans hated about the WWE product like 'rest holds' and berating the crowd, or his exaggerated "I have till five" stuff. So them chanting "Same old shit" to him was just a reference to that, and the desired reaction. All a bit embarrassing looking back, but still a touch above the "This is awesome" and "Please don't stop" chants. I don't think it was embarrassing. And it wasn't counter productive at all. The guy was over like crazy. He was doing a subtle heel act, and it was sort of wink wink, but he was definitely the heel in the Delirious program for instance. Shades of gray in wrestling are always more interesting than black & white. ROH was wrestling for smarks that weren't interested in the same old tropes. It wasn't a promotion for old ladies sitting in the front row who still believed. Personally I think it's the most interesting character work he's ever done, as the guy who let "best in the world" get to his head, and I think 2006 was by far his best overall year. He could have went full on heel, but ironically that's more of the 'same old shit', plus it would have never worked because nobody was going to dislike him no matter what he did. It would be like all of those 80's promoters trying to get people to boo the Road Warriors. About crowd chants. The only crowd chant that has ever bothered me is "You fucked up", which is cringy & disrespectful. People who complain about crowd chants or complain that crowds are "putting themselves over" always come off as old curmudgeons to me. And this coming from someone who hardly ever makes a peep at shows beyond polite clapping. People pay for a ticket, they can have fun any way they please. We hear people complain every year about the post-Mania RAW crowd, but shit, I wish EVERY crowd was that hot. Those shows are can't miss because of the crowds. I went to a million ROH shows, and they were all a fun atmosphere. I wouldn't change a thing about those shows. Crowd chants have started working their way into mainstream sports. You've had the Bleacher Creature roll call at Yankee Stadium for years and at its core, "Let's go Red Sox" is just a version of "Let's go Low Ki." But this past weekend in Baltimore, there were numerous, loud "Nick Markakis" chants (done in the Nick Mar-Kay-Kis clap rhythm) that made me think I was at a mid 2000's ROH show, only with 47,000 fans doing it, which was quite a spectacle. My main issue with crowd chants, beyond the terrible "This is awesome" chant, is that crowd heat will never come close to what it was in years past. Part of that is me being unwilling to adapt, part of it is the genie being let out of the bottle. But when I watch 1985-1986 Crockett shows and see blistering heat without a single chant needed, it definitely makes me more aware of how the heat is generated today. I love the Punk vs. Cena MITB 2011 match, which is certainly helped by the awesome crowd reaction (and chants) but it has also lead to some matches getting This is Awesome chants 3 minutes in, when they don't deserve it or warrant it.

That's the big 2000 US Indy problem - going 10-20 minutes too long for almost every match depending on the matches length.

Super under rated. If they didn't have their ROH match in March 2002, this would be remembered a lot more. I don't even necessarily think the ROH match is better - it's just that more people have seen it and both guys were overall better 9 months later. May try to upload this tonight for more people to see.

Garvin vs. Tully from 5/3/86 Worldwide is a match so good that even if Garvin didn't have much other stuff, I would still consider him for a top 100 spot. Luckily, it doesn't matter because he does have the other matches and will probably fall in the lower 4th of my ballot.

Is anyone really writing off spotfests? It's a legit question and has become sort of a PWO talking point. I'm very confident that if we took a poll about the amazing Michinoku Pro 10 man tags from 1996, they would be close to universally praised on this board. Schneider started on the internet with his AU MPro blog and featured those matches prominently on his early comps (as well as his later one's when it shifted to Toryumon). Loss, Ditch, myself, Stomper, TomK, Childs, and numerous others that I'm just forgetting to list have all spoken very highly of these style matches before. But context is also important. I never got the DG ROH trios match from March 2006 hype because I had seen that style done better in MPro and better in Toryumon. But then I watched something like the PWG tag from a few years ago with Samurai del Sol, AR Fox, Rich Swann, and Ricochet and thought that was a really strong spot fest that brought something new to the table. I guess I don't like being generally dismissive of a style, good or bad. I watch every hyped DG match these days and walk away feeling numb and cold, but if I didn't, I also wouldn't see the very cool CIMA vs. Super Shisa series that has been happening over the last couple of years. I'm not a huge fan of any of the guys in the PWG tag but they created something really cool and if I didn't give it the chance based solely on names, I would have missed out on a cool match. I'm not a big AWA fan at all, but outright dismissing it would leave a big gap in my wrestling viewing and seeing some solid stuff that just isn't my taste. This probably needs to be moved so it doesn't interfere with the Tozawa talk but figured I would let Will or Loss decide that.