Grimmas

Here was the playlist: Butch Reed vs Jerry Blackwell (St. Louis, 1982-11-28, 2/3 Falls) Butch Reed vs Junkyard Dog (Houston, 1983-07-29) Butch Reed vs Tito Santana (Houston, 1984-01-13) Butch Reed vs Magnum T.A. (Houston, 1984-08-31) Butch Reed vs Buzz Sawyer (Mid South, 1985-12-31, Dog Collar) Butch Reed vs Superstar Billy Graham (WWF, 1987-10-16, Cage) Butch Reed & Ron Simmons vs Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner (WCW Capital Combat, 1990-05-09)

I think these two work very similarly and are both extremely charismatic. I don't know if I know how to differentiate them really. What do you folks think?

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Rey Jr. and I don't think it's that close. Rey was just spectacular in the ring most of his career and eventually found a way to be one of the best sympathetic babyfaces in wrestling history. The size helps, but the way he worked really helped. Vader is someone I find super cool. I really like him and like watching him work, however most times I watch him I feel something is missing. He's this bad ass huge monster who never felt dominate enough. I know selling for people makes a more fair match, and I know monster's can sell and it works (look at Tenta), but Vader maybe did it too much. Both are top 50 wrestlers, but I don't think think this one is as close as it may seem on paper.

The very first podcast I ever did was about this topic. I defended Bret then, but I was unsure and not confident in that take. Years and years later and I am very confident in that take. If you want to argue Flair had more great matches, had more variety of opponents, and settings then sure. You can argue, pretty easily, that Flair had a greatest wrestling career than Bret Hart. However, we are debating who is the greater wrestler. Flair is stupid. Sure, he has good instincts. Sure, he can make things exciting. Sure. However, I think it's pretty clear Flair didn't put great thought into his matches and most of the time he wasted a lot of time he had in the match and did stupid spots just because that has his spot he did every match. Bret is smart. The little touches he put into things is unmatched by almost any other wrestler. Two great examples. In 1995 going through tables gained popularity, but were mostly someone lying around like an idiot, but Bret found a way to make a table bump look not stupid (against Diesel at Survivor Series 95). At in IYH, he took on Hakushi and was one of the first wrestlers to take an Asai moonsault without standing around like an idiot, instead he brawled with Hakushi's manager and caught the moonsault out of nowhere. Bret makes you believe wrestling is a competition, Flair makes you believe wrestling is entertainment. When you are watching Bret vs someone you want to root for Bret (or against) as you feel it's a competition. Everything he does in the ring is realistic in the sense of pro wrestling. Now it's not RINGS, but in wrestling context it's a contest. Flair, on the other hand, makes you root against him because he's a jerk. He does all these things that makes you feel wrestling is silly. He'll get his pants pulled down, he'll do spots that make you laugh. Sure you root against him, but that's because he's either cheating or a sexual abuser, not really because you buy into the match being a contest. The match is more for show. Bret had way less 60 minute boring draws. People make the argument that Flair would have a lot of people's best match of their career. While true, it's also true for Bret. However, there is a big difference. With Flair's opponent, they are having a Flair match. The person having their career match could almost be anyone and it would be similar. Bret, though, would cater his matches to his opponent more. He would have Diesel's greatest matches, but having a Diesel match. He would have Waltman's best match, but having a Waltman match. He would have Austin's best match, but having an Austin match. Bret's offense was better, by far. It looked better and looked like it hurt more. A huge one for me is finishes. Bret was the best at finishes. So much so that so many people would copy his finishes and use them through out there career. I could go on and on. Name something that makes a great wrestler and I think Bret did it better than Flair, or I probably don't think it actually is something important. I may be missing something obvious, but Bret > Flair.

The classic debate should be the first thread.

or you can vote for both.

I only nominate people I might consider or I think others should consider, however if you can make a case and follow the rules there is really nothing you from nominating anyone if you want to waste the time.

I still think about that spot, it ruled! These two were cooler, so watch this match!

It should be they are a nominee now. You can't discount the last 15 years of Deeb, she's been good since the first Shimmer show.

Back to the 1990s with a batch of JWP all from 1992-08-16. 1) Dynamite Kansai & Cuty Suzuki vs Devil Masami & Mayumi Ozaki I don't know what to say about this match, but it freaking rules! As good as Cuty and Ozaki were, the real stars were Dynamite and Devil, who showed a real hate for each other. Devil Masami picks up Cuty in a gorilla press on the floor and walks around before dropping her onto a table that had 0 give or breakage. Dynamite flips and run to make sure she's not dead. Then, later on, Devil does another gorilla press inside the ring, this time tossing her upwards. JUST WILD! My favourite moment was when Devil had Cuty in a vicious sub which causes Dynamite to run in and give some mean kicks to try to break the hold. The staredown Devil-Dynamite had was so intense, and Devil giving Cuty some vicious kicks right after as an FU was awesome wrestling! [Rating 8.25] 2) Hikari Fukuoka vs Sumiko Saito A really solid match with some great submissions, especially by Saito, leading to the match really picking up later on and Hikari winning with an O'Connor roll! Saito had like 3 years in total of a career, it's wild she is as good as she was here. 3) Plum Mariko vs Bolshoi Kid The first time I remember seeing Mariko in this context and finally the arrival of Bolshoi! When I started watching very broadly in 2017ish she was someone I really fell for. A great technical wrestler. On the ARSION stuff there was a great match with her as PIKO that I lost the notes for. Now seeing her here in 1992! She's someone I can see making my list, if the footage is what I think it may be. Bolshoi hands out candy pre-match, so this is the most clown like I have ever seen her. Early on we have some really good technical wrestling, with Mariko with especially great submissions, with some fun high flying by Bolshoi mixed in. Mariko surprises me with some amazing high flying on her own, including a vicious springboard plancha and a Negro Casas dive off the apron. This all leads to Bolshoi countering a tombstone on the floor into her own followed by her own dive! An amazing nearfall happens later on as Bolshoi is wiped into the corner, runs up the turnbuckles and hits a crossbody only to have Mariko bridge it into a two count. Some more close falls before a vicious looking German by Mariko gets the win. A really good match! [Rating 7.0] I skipped the submission battle royal, sorry.

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I've only seen the Jaguar matches and she looked like one of the best wrestlers ever. Hopefully there is enough footage to show that.

Just watched that Riho match, probably the best Riho singles match I have ever seen! Deeb was a master in that just controlling everything. It actually goes well with watching her in early Shimmer, she has always been so technically sound and wise on what to do in the ring. She's a mechanic or whatever that term Steve Austin always used to use. I'll need to go in fill in some gaps, look for some more high end stuff for her to make my list, but you won't find a bad Deeb match I am sure.

UPDATED! Sorry it took so long.

KB8 said: "I mentioned this in the #100 thread, but Herodes right now might be mine. In some ways he's a bit of a Mexican Arn Anderson who will go from total stooge to a burly bastard that'll just stomp your head in. At times - at least in the early 90s - he almost comes off as a comedy act as he leans so far into being a complete buffoon, but he always flips it and reminds you that once upon a time this guy might've been the sort of enforcer you would not fuck with. And on that note, Herodes could brawl like a motherfucker and the Salazar match is a bloodthirsty vampire's dream. " Match Recs Tony Salazar v Herodes (EMLL, 3/2/84) Herodes, El Faraon & Mocho Cota v Lizmark, Ringo Mendoza & Tony Salazar (2/24/84) Herodes, Emilio Charles Jr & Espectro Jr v Ringo Mendoza, Kung Fu & Popitekus (CMLL, 2/4/90)

Phil Schneider said: "I think at least worth considering. He has a long run as a solid midcard rudo in IWRG, and when he has been given a chance to shine in big matches, has been part of some real classics. He made my book twice, with the El Pollo mask match and the Trauma 1 mask match and the Chico Che hair match is also very good. Feels like a guy with those three big highlights on his resume (and I need to see if the Freelance hair match is on tape as well) should be in the discussion. " Match Recs: vs. Chico Che 9/10/10 vs. El Pollo 12/26/10 vs. Trauma 1 9/14/16

Cap said: "I've come around a bit late on Deeb, honestly since she has come to AEW. I was familiar with her as a strong wrestler before that, but she has blown me away in the past year or so. In turn, my nomination is based on a small sample size, but my gut tells me the past year is not some anomaly. Skimming her cagematch page, I am guessing there are some other strong stretches and maybe even some sort of hidden gems in there and I am hoping others can point out if and when/where else she excels. Deeb is well rounded. Her offense has teeth and is tight. Her selling is top notch, both in the moment and consistently through the match. Her physical storytelling is great and has a knack for making you buy into near falls and sucking you into the home stretch. Additionally, in the past year she has working a lot with women who have a lot less experience and are very much in the early stages of their growth. She is really walking them through good to great TV matches and making them look real real good." Match Recs v Thunder Rosa (11/18/2020) v Tay Conti (1/13/2021) v Riho (2/18/2021)

She challenged her to the hair match two months out for that specific day? I must had missed that one, my Japanese is horrible so I am not great with the promos. I'll take your word for it then.

Cad said: "I don't have a strong image of Pantera Sureña as a character. What I can tell you is that she was in the two best women's matches in Mexico that I've seen, one a technical match against Jaguar Yokota in El Toreo and the other a bloody hair vs hair match against Lola Gonzalez in Arena Mexico. She's not flashy and she's not going to jump off the screen at you as a personality, but she was a well rounded worker who stood out in a division that I'm not sure has a single nominee yet." La Galactica vs Jaguar Yokota (May 5 1983) PS vs Jaguar Yokota (May 12 1985) PS vs Lola Gonzalez (December 9 1988)

Cad said: "Bullish wrestler who could work tecnico or rudo, one of the most skilled guys of his era. He probably doesn't have the matches (I think there are two Texano one vs one matches on video), so you'd have to vote for him on skill or just how much you enjoy watching him. In the late '80s and early '90s he stands out pretty much every match he's in. The most famous part of his career (Misioneros de la Muerte) is barely represented on tape." Match Recs El Texano, El Dandy and Super Muñeco vs Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Blue Demon Jr. (March 24 1989) El Texano, Apolo Dantes and Mascara Sagrada vs Villano I, Villano IV and Villano V (April 20 1990) El Texano vs El Signo (January 12 1992)

Phil Schneider said: "He is a guy who is at the start of his career, still has stuff to learn and will be adding to his case clearly, but thinking about it he has had a really great list of top matches. There are plenty of people who have been nominated who don't have a match as good as the I Quit match with Bishop or last months war with Eddie Kingston. I also have really enjoyed him doing straight grappling heavy shootstyle stuff in PPW." Recommended Matches: Dominic Garrini vs. Cain Justice CWF Mid Atlantic 2/25/17 Dominic Garrini vs. Joshua Bishop AIW 4/4/19 Dominic Garrini/Kevin Ku vs. To Infinity and Beyond SUP 10/9/20 Dominic Garrini vs. Eddie Kingston AIW 4/3/21

Started his career as the hot tag in a high flying ant team and was amazing in that role. Later turned into the best comedy wrestler ever, and has transitioned that into some insanely great matches (David Starr, Pac, etc..) .The commitment to character and the different ranges between them is pretty damn impressive. Recs: Fire Ant vs Vin Girard (2008-06-15 Chikara) Orange Cassidy vs David Starr (2018-11-25 Beyond) Orange Cassidy vs PAC (2020-02-29 AEW)

Cien Caras said: "I checked and shame on you people of 2016 for not nominating one of the all time great villains. Despite the name, not a roided action hero in a big budget franchise, but more of a evil but bumbling Central American mercenary drug baron in a straight to video bargain bin. Just a classic brawling, stooging piece of shit rudo." Recommended Matches: vs Villano 3 AAA hair vs mask 1993 w/ Blue Panther and Fishman vs Love Machine, Tienblas, Villano 3 AAA 1993 w/The Killer and Fishman vs Pegasus Kid, Villano 3, Dos Caras

Jetlag said: "Maybe the picture of the stoic French baby face wrestler. Generally understood to be "The Man" of French catch, and he is quite the ace character. Both excellent technician and really great at slugging it out, with a knack for matches that build up neatly. Shows up from 1957 - 1977 and looks good against a wide variety of opponents, from typical heels to giant masked monsters. We've yet to dive into the second half of that period but I have a feeling he'll be excellent from beginning to end." Recommended matches: vs. Warnia de Zarzecki, 5/30/1957 vs. Rocco Lamban, 10/30/1958 w Claude Montourcy vs. Karl von Chenok & Robert Gastel, 5/23/1957