El-P

As I'm going through Ishin Gundan vs NJ, Ishin Gundan vs Jumbo's army & UWF vs NJ, it just occured to me that the two workers who basically revolutionized pro-wrestling in the 80's in Japan (Choshu & Maeda) were actually Korean. I wonder if that has been discussed before and if that played a role in how they were perceived by the audience, including the fact they played the role of rebellious people turning against the establishment.

As I'm going through Ishin Gundan vs NJ, Ishin Gundan vs Jumbo's army & UWF vs NJ, it just occured to me that the two workers who basically revolutionized pro-wrestling in the 80's in Japan (Choshu & Maeda) were actually Korean. I wonder if that has been discussed before and if that played a role in how they were perceived by the audience, including the fact they played the role of rebellious people turning against the establishment.

I used to love Devil so much. Except when she was doing that Super Heel shitty Taker like gimmick. But yeah, great worker. And like you said, probably the first veteran worker. The greatest smile in joshi puroresu too (could be a genuine gentle smile or a totally evil one).

So yeah, sometime we do see the same match. This is terrific indeed.

Yeah, but we really only use the last part as a running gag since 2002 : "I fully assume the responsibility for this failure and I drew conclusions by removing me from …." (whatever you're talking about at that moment) As a frenchman, it automatically popped up in my brain. Along with this (no translation needed) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9PjBgWOkng

I went into details about that match already. It's like we didn't watch the same match, but it's not the first time it happens, and I'm cool with that. To me Takada is better that Fuji at this point. To quote Will : "Different strokes for different people".

This. You know what you need to do now, Dan.

He couldn't be seen as the real deal when he was submitting to a Mutoh shitty figure four I believe. Still, that didn't keep him from going all shooty later, so. Yeah, terrific carny like I said. And really, should the HUSTLE work count for something ? I have no idea what he was saying over there, but it was so cool and goofy.

I don't know if he got over as the real deal. I don't think those PRIDE debacle were well recieved. Takada's in-ring career really didn't survive much longer after those, although his super-stardom as a pro-wrestler totally helped establish the brand. Takada was a huge star before, and stayed a big name afterward as a celebrity, but he kinda followed the Onita path to me. He's a terrific carny. On the working side, I'm going through UWF vs NJ feud right now, and man I forgot how great Takada already was by then. I'll say it out front, he's the best worker of the bunch alongside Fujinami and Maeda (and before someone jumps at my throat, yeah, I think Fujiwara going all headbutty and shit just doesn't work as well as him being all great as a shoot-style worker in both UWFs, although I enjoyed his blood feud with Kengo Kimura a lot, a few douchy no-selling spots aside, so he's one step below although still really good). Reawatching Takada, inlcuding tons of matches I hadn't seen before (I went through both UWF's in the last few years), I'm getting closer and closer to throw him into the top 10, which is higher than I did during the SC poll.

Wait, does that mean I actually was turned de facto babyface ? Should I now rank Lawler in my top 10 or is my "Takada is great" stance now an actual finisher ?

I'm not the biggest Toyota fan around (although I do recognize her greatness in spots). But this is kinda insulting. Yeah, not a Patti Smith fan at all.

Hey, Shinzaki made my top 100 in 2006 for this exact reason. And gotta +1 everything Redman said (and put very well) about doing a yearly poll. I'll add it would be the best way to kill that kind of project because after one year or two, people just won't care anymore. Every ten years is perfect.

Never got the backlash. Super solid worker. Might be somewhat dull as a babyface, but that's because he's a natural heel. Always enjoyed him whenever he showed up in WCW in the 90's, and was very good in UWF. Not top 100 material, but a super solid hand. Kind of a dick apparently (maybe because his own is small if you believe Missy).

Damn… we were all pretty much having fun in 2006 in SC, even if maybe we were much more abrasive back then. A few people around here are taking this way too fucking seriously. Watch matches, rate wrestlers, have fun bitching about the countdown. That's how it went and it was *fun*. Hell, the bitching part was half the fun of it (and it was true of all our polls actually, be it wrestling, movies or music). But this "oh, don't comment on *my thread* if you haven't listened to *my* five two hours podcasts" and "oh, I won't participate anymore because people are not serious enough and won't vote for my favourites which are obviously the best choices" is a laughable attitude. And yeah, I won't have time to watch half of what I'd like to watch, and I'll vote before it's over.

It's actually much better when he became El Hijo del Fujinami in the 00's, working the "old-school New Japan" guy gimmick better than the guys from the era, almost. The Osamu Kido analogy is kinda spot on, but I guess I like Osamu Kido more than most. If I had to watch *one* NJ guy from the 00's just out of curiosity, it would be him, because he was just so different, and so good at what he did. I regret not having the time to.

Sorry, but this is fucking hilarious.

If someone knows how to put a match together, that should be her...

They need to use the cover by Type O Negative then. Ok, it wouldn't exactly fit the duo, but I would pop for that.

Funny. Back then the one thing that I really disliked about the Hardys, even before some of their work, was their look. They looked like absolute twats to me back then already, but then again, maybe I was too old already. They were the perfect blowjob tag team for the time, and Lita was the perfect blowjob girl to tag with them I guess. I just didn't relate one bit. Yeah. Pretty much.

She debuted in 2000. Pro-wrestling...

Me neither. This thread already gone to hell.

I'm not saying they aren't interesting. I loved the few Tamura fights I saw. But I won't take them in account when I'm judging his pro-wrestling career. Because it's not worked. That's pretty much it.

Relevant as far as his identity goes, yes. But how good he was as an MMA fighter or not means zilch, because MMA isn't pro-wrestling. It's really simple. You can enjoy how much his pro-wrestling character derives from his MMA career, but in the end, how good of a pro-wrestler he is really has nothing to do with how good a shootfighter he was. And trying to make a case for pro-wrestlers career by taking in accounts how good they were as MMA fighters (or whatever fighting *sport* they played) is irrelevant to me.

How wasn't it significant ? Steve Williams career in the WWF was basically derailed totally because of his loss in Brawl for All. Alberto del Rio used a shoot-style finisher because he did MMA before. I don't care that Sakuraba's current NJWP career is shaped by what he did in PRIDE. It's not relevant to how good a pro-wrestler he is/was. It's just a gimmick at this point, like any other gimmick. Let me put it like this : the fact Kurt Angle won a Gold Medal at the Olympics did shape his entire pro-wrestling career. It was his entire gimmick too. Still, it has nothing to do with how good (or not) he was at *pro-wrestling*. Because amateur wrestling, like MMA, isn't pro-wrestling. It's not a work. It's as simple as that to me.