Matt D

FFS, stop watching things that we didn't tell you to watch and watch 2009 (Christian, especially the London match, which is the match that got me to watch live wrestling for the first time in 2-3 years, but 1-2 more so you can see the differences from match to match and maybe Goldust) and then the FCW/NXT stuff (Ambrose, Ohno, and Cesaro).

Putting this out there for people considering Pritchard. Twenty minutes with a totally green student.

I give Shawn a ton of credit for understanding pro wrestling, or at least, for having a honed and learned understanding of pro wrestling. It's just that sometimes he uses that understanding for evil. And other times, he can't execute it to the fullest. We're so deep into this process that I'm not sure what's been said in what thread or in PMs or facebook discussions or what. Honest question: I think Shawn is hurt by people not liking him as a human being. That's probably not fair to him in this process, however, one aspect of that which shows up in his work is that he would, at times (even key times), do the right thing to get himself over at the expense of his opponent or the match or the bigger picture. Does that hurt him for you?

Hell of a post, Elliott.

I support this.

+1 for jobbing to the Hurricane.

Is there any post-WWE Waltman that's necessary to see?

Which makes you perfectly prepared to mark out for late career Regal.

And despite my counter, I think it was a well crafted article and one that's well worth reading. It's just the start of the conversation, not the end of it, if that makes sense.

Watch the Christian series from 09 too and the FCW/NXT stuff.

I think some of my talking points apply especially to Dean, at least in our circle.

I hope there are like six amazing NWA Classics matches that come out between now and then that change everything and all of you feel nothing but regret.

It wasn't the literal bubble. It was the list of people who I couldn't rate without seeing more footage that I wanted to work out by the deadline.

I think this is somewhat bleak. For one thing, I think we're seeing a level of acquisition right now that isn't going to sustain itself. There's only so much room on the roster and only so much of a chance for wrestlers to work in front of crowds in NXT, even with two tours. I foresee a stopgag. I think what's far more likely is that we start seeing more fluid relationships like Evolve seems to be currently. There are pros and cons to that. Also, not everyone is going to make it through the system. Hero and Callihan, hugely talented as they are, seem to be proof of that. And those who do make it through will get culled occasionally, not necessarily for reasons having to do with any value or worth. Look at PJ Black, for instance. They'll be dumped back onto the indies with more experience and name value. It's going to continue to be more circular. Anyway, I think where this is heading is a far more fuedal system across the indies. It's a WWE world now and ring-kissing is going to become more and more of the norm.

I'll be going til the last minute.

Unfortunately Christian isn't making the top 30. Not for lack of trying.

We don't disagree in a lot of ways, and it's enough to get him into my top 30. It, along with other aspects of his WWE work, good and bad, will get him that far but maybe not into the top 20 anymore. "Better than it had any right to be" takes you far, just not as far as it could, you know?

I've been watching a bit recently and I think he's falling down my list. I had him in the 15-20 range at one point. I don't think he'll make it lower than 30 (maybe not even 25), but I'm nonplussed lately. I think I'm just less favorable towards the super-indy style than others. What I can say is that he makes me at time, not love it, but like it, and that in and of itself is impressive. I watched a match tonight where the first five minutes were very good, full of character and story and the closing was very smart, and the middle was a lot of big moves and strikes rushed through from both guys. And he wasn't wrestling a schlub. The Flair comparison is interesting because with both wrestlers, I tend to like individual parts of their matches more than the greater whole. In both cases, however, I can only hold it so far against them because it's probably what they should have been doing for the crowds they were in front of. But I'll hold it far enough for it to be a few slots here and there on a list of the best ever.

I don't think a lot of people have him in their top 15.

I THINK this is Paraguay? But I have no idea. I don't think it's Argentinian Titanes. My favorite stuff starts at the 17:30 mark. Tony Luciano is TREMENDOUS.

Earnest post and it deserves a response, and probably better than the general one I'm going to give. I love "Learned Psychology" too, and think it's probably the very best thing of this age of oversaturation. It's why Punk will be on my list, as much as anything else, and why I'll be higher than almost anyone on Christian. Really, all of the modern WWE workers I have will be on there, in part, for being good at that. It's a hugely important part of TV matches. With Kofi, however, I feel like we see the strings far too clearly. Some of that has to do with who he has been paired with the most, but only part. There's an art to that level of creativity and continuity in match layout, but it has to be mixed with spontaneity and believability in execution. Maybe it's Kofi's physical grace. Maybe it's a side effect of his specific moves and the level of cooperation involved with some of them, but I see the strings too clearly in his matches. They come off as more choreographed than the people who work in that specific element who will fall on my list. It never feels natural and organic to me. It's a fine line and he doesn't even come close to making it onto the right side, to me. I get what you're saying and I can go on that trip with other wrestlers, and do gladly, but not with Kofi.

Judy Martin from my microscope thread. "No Class" Bobby Bass per various old Wrestling Cultures, this post on DVDVR, and something Dylan will add in to fill in the gap.

I have them three apart. That may change. Bret is higher.

Personally, it doesn't matter at all to me, except for in thinking how much easier Flair had it relative to the type of guys Bryan had to face. Flair jokes about 2-3 terrible wrestlers he had to face as champion, and even those were good enough or had certain tools that made them a top guy in a territory that drew X number of people on a loop. To me, Flair's greatest strength and his greatest weakness are the same thing, total and utter conviction in the idea of Ric Flair. He's not someone who would look under the hood because he was the absolute. He defined what good wrestling was so it became a self-referential loop. That's evident in his work and it's one reason why he's so engrossing. His belief was off the chart. His "method" was the easiest thing in the world, because he was Ric Flair and there was nothing he wanted more than to be Ric Flair. Bryan thought and occasionally overthought things. There was a match between he and Punk where they cycled in a spot from some recent MMA fight. This wasn't a a house show where they were just having fun. It was either on a Raw or (I think) on PPV, for the World title. I'm sure Dave probably loved in for how "topical" it was, but it's the sort of thing Flair would have never done, because he would have thought that what he was providing anyway, the Ric Flair package, was worth more than that in the first place. And there are pros and cons to that approach. That's the biggest difference between the two to me, though. Bryan looked under the hood. Sometimes that was a good thing. Sometimes it wasn't. (And in his last run he absolutely didn't, so that's interesting too). Flair felt he didn't have to and that confidence is evident in his work.

That's a dangerous slippery slope, especially re: let's say Cena and Arn Anderson.