Matt D

Also, I love the reasoning here. It wasn't Haku's job to have GREAT MATCHES, but his job was in many ways harder with far more constraints than let's say 1996 Shawn Michaels, for instance.

One of the most interesting arguments in this thing, to me, is going to be Blackwell vs Henry. Blackwell's much more in your face and Henry is much more subtle.

Is there a bunch of Montreal Haku that's awesome that I haven't seen?

I'm going to push hard for Bock, because, frankly, I think almost everything Flair does well, Bock does almost as well if not as good or better, and he does most of the stuff Flair doesn't do as well, much, much better.

Frankly, I can't imagine a list like this without Henry on it somewhere.

I say this on a completely selfish level, but the more matches are online for some of these guys, the more in depth they can be examined. That's one takeaway I got from reading the Dandy feud list.

If I had to turn in a list today, it'd either be Bockwinkel or Rose, but I have a long, long way to go.

I haven't done the legwork on Aja yet, but I think this discussion raises an interesting question. How much credit do you give someone for working a style that the crowd appreciates or what they want to see even if certain elements of it goes against what you think good wrestling is? The logical conclusion to this is Davey Richards or some really successful garbage wrestler. What's the difference between Aja working a match that's perfect for her crowd and Davey working a match that's perfect for his? They both take quite a bit of care and understanding. I think we, as a community, brutalize some people for that and then use it to downplay and rationalize away things we don't like when it comes to others.

The biggest standout feud is Jarrett/Lawler vs the Moondogs right? I think Moondog Spot is pretty much unquestionably a better candidate than Jarrett.

I think he has the sort of flaws that don't necessarily matter in general, but do matter for a list like this. He's had a year full of dropping selling when it was time to go offense, for instance, and some of that was to look strong on a big stage but it was all pretty blatant. If it's the sort of stuff I'll give crap to RVD for, it's also the sort of stuff that I'd give crap to Bryan for as well. There are other matches I look at and really don't like, too. For instance, he tried to work vs Kamala, after the excellent opening stretch, as a Super Indy match, which was a blatantly terrible decision. I'm not sure if he thought the audience wouldn't accept anything else or if he just didn't have the range/savvy to make it work, but it absolutely didn't. Again, not things that normally would be held against him, but I think it keeps him well from #1.

I'll have more things to say as we go along with this, but I find Martel's heel work in WWF very frustrating. I think he was handcuffed, be it by the agents or the style or what not, and I do think a lot of his babyface work was still pretty good there. To me, the heel run is going to hurt him and I'll probably have to revisit it and see what I can find.

I guess i was going on feel there.

I'm not sure if I'll be in trouble or if Misawa might not just be #67 on my list after I watch a whole bunch of stuff that drives me more and more nuts.

NOTE: This is taken from the remedial wrestling thread at DVDVR, so some of the comments might be a little out of context or refer to the project as a whole, which watched a number of matches leading up to this match as well. I've done minimal editing. What to say about this? Alright, it was a perfectly wrestled match for the setting and the style. The narrative was excellent. The execution was brilliant. The selling was perfect and it all built into the story. Was it a little bloated? Sure, but it had to be because this match wasn't wrestled in a bubble. It followed up upon the previous matches. There's a point midway through the match that if I was watching this in a bubble, then I would have wanted them to take it home. Maybe two points. That clearly happened in the first of these tag matches. Here, though I was prepared for it and they didn't lose me like they did in previous matches. The narrative, though I don't really need to recap, was this. It was even to start, like most of these matches, with Kobashi and Misawa having a bit of an edge. Kobashi made a mistake and they worked over his damaged leg. He made the hot-ish (never hot enough) tag to Misawa. They started to damage the orbital bone and then use Misawa's body to damage Kobashi's leg to really take over. They beat on Misawa's orbital bone for a while. Kobashi finally came back and was utterly unleashed, shrugging off everything, making these crazy facial expressions, just an unstoppable dynamo. For a while they went tit for tat, with the hurt man recovering at a key moment to break things up. Misawa and Kobashi had the ultimate advantage and it all came to a head with Kawada down and Taue trapped in the corner unable to break up the pin. I guess that would be the start of the finishing sequence in a normal match. Kawada WOULD kick out and they would go around in a circle or two until they hit that moment again and this time, he didn't. In this match though, it went like this: Kawada and Taue were just too much. They weren't too much for Kobashi and Misawa in general, but given their opponents natural fighting spirit, it took too long for Misawa and Kobashi to beat them, and because of that, due to the weaknesses they had coming into this match, that meant that they ultimately could get overwhelmed. It felt like the result was inevitable before the match even began. Kobashi got nailed in the leg. Misawa got nailed in the eye again, and the momentum shifted and this time, finally, it was Misawa that lost the battle of attrition. It was compelling in leading up to a rematch on fair footing; on that level it was absolutely brilliant, but it felt cheap as a pay off to "THE BEST TAG MATCH EVER" and in that context I'm a little shaky on it. They sure protected the hell out Misawa. I'm not sure they really made Kawada and Taue look better in the process, though. The biggest real issue I had with the match was the Kobashi superman run. That's exactly what it felt right. It's funny that I've always heard that this stuff was somehow "more real." Personally, I don't mind it all that much. It felt like something out of a cartoon or comic book or sci fi, but I like those things. Actually it felt like the kid who got the Charles Atlas correspondence course and beat up the guys who kicked sand at him, or even more like it should have come after a montage with "Simply the Best" in the background. What it felt like most of all was some sort of kung fu movie (and Kung Fu Hustle came to mind) where the hero finally found his inner power and peace of mind and was able to develop super powers. It was hugely entertaining and kind of emotional, but not in the same way 99% of wrestling, even comebacks like Hogan's and Cena's are. It felt anything but real. The issue to me wasn't even that, but that it ultimately didn't really matter. Kobashi had this once in a lifetime comeback, this sort of thing that stretches credulity so far past the breaking point that his hair should have turned hot blonde and energy waves should have been coming off of him, and it was awesome, and ultimately, they still lost. It just seemed like a story element that belonged in another match, maybe? Not the one where they were finally putting Kawada/Taue over. I had thought I might talk about how the escalation here was the sort of thing that could burn out a territory and set impossible expectations. From what I understand, that eventually happened. It's a fair thing to judge a match on, I think, since they were breaking a bunch of "rules" and stretching things further than ever to accomplish what they were trying to do. It's really more than that here though: Everything had to be wrestled perfectly in this match to work. Things had to be balanced. Each move had to mean the right amount relative to the other moves in the match and the promotion in general and the fans had to buy into that. It's like exchanging currency. The edifice of the match needed every part to support it or else the entire style of wrestling would collapse, and frankly, it took both a miracle and genius performers to manage that. They did it here far, far more than they should have been able to but I almost don't think it was worth it. That's the tragedy of this match to me. They have such attention for detail, such thought in the layout, such care in their selling, such intensity and willingness to just give themselves to pro wrestling. If they worked this match in a style I actually like, it could be like nothing I'd ever seen before, because of the talent and the work put into it. Instead, we get something that is exquisitely beautiful, but that manages to succeed despite its loudness and brightness and not because of it.

This is relevant for the the 6/1/93 match (Which was the first one I saw of these guys): "The major problem is that it just went on and on and on during the finishing stretch. If the thing ended with the moonsault after the tandem DDTs or especially Kobashi's powerbomb with the flip pin, I think I ultimately would have loved the match instead of just being happily surprised with some parts of it and frustrated with other parts. It just kept going and going after that though with a sort of escalation i wasn't feeling at all, and I had actually been REALLY into it when Kawada tagged in after Misawa's flying elbow to the floor. I thought they were going to take the thing home there because it felt really right to me and they just didn't." ====== Here's everything I said about the 12/3/93 match: 12/3/93 "An really awesome 17 minute match and a very frustrating 30 minute match all in one! Seriously, this one was more egregious than the last in losing me. I really sort of loved it right until the hot tag to Misawa and Kobashi fighting back and what not. The match should have ended there, or maybe i guess gone into a second FIP or something, like in AWA matches. Instead, they just hit things in and out of giant moments and by the missed Kobashi moonsault I was done. It's really frustrating too because there are so many great little moments and really clever bits and very strong selling and facial expressions and the stuff just looks so good, but when half the match is this back and forth big bomb finishing sequence where they've given up on working any sort of tag team match after spending the first half of the match working a really great tag team match, I just get desensitized. I sort of love each guy in his role. Taue as a big man bully asshole is really great. Kawada is the surliest wrestler ever and a stubborn idiot to boot. Kobashi is a good FIP with these fiery moments of really quick offense and MIsawa is one of the best hot tags ever because his execution and the energy and emotion he's able to put behind it is just so iconic. You really get the feeling that this person is a PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER and not just someone pretending to be one. That said, everything just fizzles apart for me. My gut tells me that everything's come to a head and that they should bring the match to a conclusion and you know what? Fifteen minutes later they do." --- 3/6/94 ----- You get the idea after this. These could go into yearbook notes, but I know you were curious so I just posted a bunch. I'll go post the 6/9 one in the yearbook note. ----- Also, I do plan on seeing some of those six mans. It's a great way to see a bunch of guys at once after all.

The archives themselves are putting it up. Here's the Info: They have 208 matches in total. And the announcement.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWXxP_rvXryBPpjIw7Dl9Tg/videos Was this stuff always out there? EDIT: Okay, I see that some of it was up, like the Verne vs super young Bastien match I just saw. Someone posted it 5 years ago on youtube, but the VQ on this stuff is amazing. Way better

What about the excess? One thing that impressed me very much with Misawa and co. was that many things such as strike exchanges that we take for granted now because they have been copied to the point of losing their initial meaning felt so natural and organic and important. It wasn't even about forgiving them when we hold then against modern matches. They were just completely different. The excess did not feel that way. In most of the matches I felt strongly like they should have been taking things home about 2/3rds the way through. Unlike the very visceral and meaningful strike exchanges that aspect seemed much like what many of us we criticize heavily today.

We all thought this was going to be Sabu at the time.

Hansen is a guy I need a primer for.

I find that interesting. I wonder how much it puts the onus and thus the credit on the challenger or the opponent though. What comes to mind, actually, as a contrast, is Hulk Hogan's WWF run. Did his opponents come in with any different sort of strategies even though he was a nigh-undefeatable Ace? I don't remember anyone ever trying to take out the leg to eliminate the leg drop, for instance.

And I thought it was Kensuke Sasaki that was a Road Warrior.

First, in the name of this project, I will absolutely watch anything people want me to watch, within reason, and so far, all of this is in reason. I might just not do it today or tomorrow. Second, I wonder if what Childs is mentioning here isn't sort of limited. I honestly don't know. On paper, I think it allows for less creativity in some way as a lot of what he would be forced to do would either be formulaic or reactive. Is that the case?

To clarify off of what Goodear said, it wasn't necessarily the strike exchange part of the fighting spirit that gave me trouble but the popping up to hit something before selling bit, especially after some sort of limbwork crucial to the match that was sold as if it was crucial to the match.

In the end, I think it might be something like "Does Arn do his job better than Flair does his job?" factoring in that there are both advantages and disadvantages to each job. Though it's obviously personal. So it's more like "Does Arn do his job better in my eyes than Flair does his job in my eyes?" then factoring in and weighing what I personally feel to be the advantages and disadvantages in each. I'm not convinced that it's always more difficult to wrestle a good match in a 20 minute main event than it is to wrestle one in a 10 minute tv match. It's situational. There are pros and cons.