Matt D

I'd probably just rather avoid Benoit except for when looking at other guys than placing him at 82 or whatever. I'll say this about a previous comment, though. Benoit's arm-work is really good in that match with RVD. It's also terribly misguided, and blatantly wrong. I don't hold this against anyone else, but I'll hold it against Benoit. RVD is my least favorite wrestler ever. If you do limbwork on him, it will take up time, but the second he goes back on offense, no matter what, it's over. Forget it. Doing limbwork on him is a black hole. Good limbwork against him is actually a negative, and frankly, Benoit should have known better. He was too caught up in what should have worked to adapt to his opponent. It's like how Malenko wasn't great at adapting to a crowd.

There are late Duggan matches I like a lot, vs Yoko in Europe in 93, the Vader match, but I don't think that's enough to overlook so much of the back end of his career. It's possible; I won't say it's not, but it's doubtful.

That's noted, and respected, but I'll be frustrated if I try to argue between something specific that one wrestler in your top tier did and something that a wrestler in the next tier did and you shut me down repeatedly by saying it doesn't matter since they're in different tiers. Just as I'm sure you'll be frustrated because to you it doesn't matter.

My big takeaways of the Burke/Bock match were 1.) It was really cool to see travelling champ Bock play de facto babyface. That was sort of a missing piece of the puzzle to me. There were a few little things, like how he was more aggressive in trying to get his hands on Burke during the King of the Mountain bit instead of just keeping him out of the ring. 2.) I think the finish was pretty smart as it made Burke look considerably good since, even though he was cheating and using nasty tactics, he still had a clear advantage and if Dr. D hadn't come out to save the day (for his own, believable reasons), you think he could have maybe won it, but at the end of the day Bock gets the win and all three guys have potential issues with each other. The local wrestlers keep their heat (maybe even gain some). Bock doesn't lose the title. There's even a pinfall. 3.) Stampede's footage issue is so frustrating.

My general feeling is that it's all going to just work out. We'll do our stuff, like we always do, and we'll end up way more educated in the end and it'll be okay.

This is from 2010, Parv, which feels like FOREVER and a day ago, so I don't want you to hold this against me too much, but it'll give you an idea. It's not how I'd write up the match now. But hey, I was still in my 20s then. The main point is that he had a certain value built up in the eyes of the fan. Wrestling is all about perception. The Cobra is a perfectly viable finishing move. Even the people's elbow, so long as it's sold as such over time. The fans believed that Andre just touching someone could cause mayhem because of how those people sold and how Andre used it. He was so limited that he made every movement he had mean something, and I think he full well knew the vocabulary he could write with given how the crowd was conditioned to feel.

Then what is there to argue about? We're trying to find which guy has 17 matches that are great and which guy has only 16? That's how you're going to decide this? Isn't it far more important what makes those matches great than how many the person has?

I love Andre in the Colossal Connection matches. That's my favorite Andre probably and it's some of the most brilliant wrestling I've ever seen when it comes to using what resources you have available when they've become, both so very, very limited, but also so incredibly special. There's very little wrestling smarter than Andre in the Colossal Connection. One of my favorite performances of all time without question is Andre and Haku vs Demolition in December at MSG.

Personally, I'm taking a pretty consistent and distinct set of criteria to a lot of wrestlers I haven't seen much of, especially ones that people will be arguing for, and then reevaluating the ones I do know well in a very strict manner. You just don't agree with my criteria. Charles very succinctly defined the difference between this and the WON HOF is that the latter is about drawing and influence and on some level work and that this project is about aesthetics. You can do a numerical tally of WHO HAD THE GREATEST NUMBER OF GREAT MATCHES ON TAPE, but that's even less interesting to me than if we just picked all our favorites now. I'd much rather take a comprehensive qualitative approach (one that's consistent over all major candidates) than a quantitative one. As long as people are open minded and consistent it'll be okay. For me, the matches and what happens within them are the primary sources that I draw my evidence from in order to generate conclusions. It means that maybe people won't have entirely shared criteria but as a community, given the knowledge and wealth of experience we bring to the table, I'm pretty confident that whatever list we come up with will be well worth the trouble of the next few years and going through this process.

Looks like it was taken down. Sorry. I'll keep an eye out though. EDIT: Or what OJ said. EDIT2: Arn is pretty much the perfect representative of the Matt D school of what makes a wrestler good, yes. BUT because of that, I'm going to put him under further scrutiny than I would otherwise. Including watching Renegade and Erik Watts matches.

I didn't necessarily see him as a heel so much as a jerk (or more necessarily a dick). But maybe that's inwardly the same thing to me? I just saw a dynamic character there, one that appealed to me way more than the other three and that I actively wanted to track down more of, while I came out of that series with the idea that watching the other three more would be something of a chore. I'm trying to think of a pop culture reference that makes sense. The big guy who takes your ball when it lands in his yard and pops it. And then laughs. Just because he can, and what are you going to do about it. Or the sort of big bully that would put his hand on Kobashi's head while the guy charged at him but couldn't reach him with his punches (he didn't do that but I would have believed it if he did). I posted my real time notes pretty thoroughly for the last bunch of those matches and you can see the exact moments I popped for over multiple matches. He reminded me a bit of laughing heel Andre or Ernie Ladd screwing around with guys. All that said, maybe? If it was just one match, I'd buy into that idea more, certainly. I watch a luchador for the first time now and sometimes I see something that I realize obviously isn't the case after I see a few matches, but i saw multiple matches here and they were pretty long matches as well (my lacking sense of time notwithstanding). I've seen another couple of Taue matches since then, though, and I don't feel any different. That said, I'll be the first guy to tell you I lack context. At the same time, I know what I like (and usually why I like it) as well as anyone. EDIT: I think the above was especially true for my first impressions, but (and hey, this shows my ignorance or something) I can't imagine watching the 06/09/95 tag match and not seeing faces and heels, between the devastation of the leg and the crazy Kobashi superman comeback and everything.

People seriously need to see the late 91 Arn vs Windham TV match. I THINK OJ likes that one too. It's probably on dailymotion as part of a WCW Pro Chicago or something but I'd have to track it down.

How the hell have I not seen that? Thanks.

Is there any footage online people could suggest?

I might rewatch that match tonight. I'm kind of curious how savvy he is in it. Granted, I penalize a guy like Shawn for being clever in the ring but using that for something other than the good of the match, so I'm tempted to if Arn did as well. It shows me a couple of things if that's the case. It's not exactly the same as some of Shawn's greatest hits mind you, but there was a ton of backstage drama about that match.

What's an outright bad Arn performance? What's a not very good Arn performance? I'm just curious what people can source. He's got lows that are higher than most people's, no?

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Taue should be in the WON HOF. I don't know. I haven't done the research. I was just commenting on my impressions of the matches that I saw and then further commenting after Snowden's response which I found borderline insulting considering how consistent my enjoyment of Taue is to most of the other things I like and how many words I spew out to back most of this stuff up. I apologize for any thread drift in this specific case (and only this case) partially caused by me.

I've seen him kill great matches (matches that he helped make great) by decided that he had to do ill conceived comedy in a finishing stretch.

If that is the concern then I think I will sleep soundly during this process. My only worry is seeing enough footage because of real life constraints.

I know you may find this incredibly counterintuitive or just contrary but those are not the things I really care about the most when it comes to what I think good and special pro wrestling is. If you have read any of my previous thoughts on anything then you would know I'm not trolling you here.

I've made so many posts in the last few days that I have no idea what I'm doing anymore. Also, I saw my first Volk Han tonight, so I'm definitely all over the place. I am not intentionally trolling anyone; I just come from the old DVDVR school of shouting in all caps when excited. If I start breaking out the ~~~ then we're in trouble. And again, a lot of what I argued wasn't necessarily saying I'm going to put Haku on my list. Some of it is just general stuff that I'm working through (which will bleed all over when applicable, here, because I thought Goodear had a really good point that could be extrapolated outwards). I was hoping Dylan or someone would chime in on really good stuff from him in Montreal I haven't seen. What's his best SWS match? I've seen one or two fun matches with him in Mexico but just fun. I'd put his best stuff as Islanders matches (I like Rick Martel vs Haku a lot), the Cage match vs Slaughter/Blackwell which was my #2 or #3 AWA set match, and Survivor Series 89 which we had as a Microscope Match where I think people liked his performance a lot. I do feel there are gaps I haven't seen. I've got to watch the longish Meng vs Benoit match again and I don't really want to.

Yeah, as OJ said, from what I've seen, he has amazing charisma, just amazing, as much as almost any wrestler I've ever seen, and he's as good as almost anyone at framing a big move or moment to make it seem important, but he'll completely derail matches by deciding that instead of selling or helping to ramp up the anticipation or the comeback, he'll should be putting his hand to his ear and winking to the crowd (metaphorically) trying to get them to chant his name. I thought he was a revelation the first time I saw him but boy does It get old real quick. He's still engaging but it keeps matches that should be good or great from being nothing more than fun and frustrating.

God dammit, OJ. He's this big surly dude who takes pleasure out of getting guys into atomic drop position and just tossing them across the ring, and that's when he's not chucking them around by their throat or dumping them over the top rope. I got so much out of him in those matches and I had no idea who he was coming in, and that was over multiple matches. I wasn't trying to be contrary. Apparently i just didn't know better (Again).

I think it's the sort of person Flashman always complains about.

Kawada's emotion was much more subdued. It was there, of course, and tangible, but it was behind a scowl. It was in what he didn't do as much as in what he did (and there's a talent to that, absolutely). Kobashi had flourishes, no doubt, but Taue just sort of oozed this larger than life (in part due to his size which I think is key in a lot of ways, but in part due to just how he moved and the disdain he manhandled his opponents with) personality. I'm not saying he necessarily brought more to the table, just that he brought as much and I could only imagine a conversation otherwise in the strictest terms of workrate. Now, I think a lot of the conversations in years past were very much on those terms.