KB8

I actually wouldn't say we're a million miles apart on those juniors matches, honestly. I don't really think about star ratings so I'm not sure what I'd give Ohtani/Dragon, but I would probably have it at...something like ****, or just shy of it, I suppose. So I liked it less than you, but not to the point where I didn't think it was still really good. I also mainly brought up Ohtani/Samurai because I seemed to like it less than pretty much everyone else who commented on it in its yearbook thread, but again, I still thought it was really good. And because of how long it takes me to go through a whole yearbook it's now been five years since I last watched it. Some peoples' tastes will change dramatically in that amount of time, so my take on it now might end up swinging all the way back to my original from when I first watched it about fifteen years ago (which was that it was probably a 'best juniors match ever' candidate). Basically, I'm not really a juniors fan either at this point, but even when I started to lose interest in the style Liger was always a guy that would keep me coming back, because on the whole he still did lots of things that my tastes were beginning to shift towards even within a style I was becoming less interested in. It's just that at some point over the last six/seven years I stopped thinking about him or paying any attention to what he was doing, and I'm not entirely sure why.

Liger's absolutely a guy whose stuff I intend to revisit before the deadline. Six/seven years ago he'd have been a contender for my top 5, but when I started to lose interest in the juniors stuff I sort of lost interest in Liger by extension (I'm not the only one in that boat, of course). I've watched hardly anything from him over the last five years, though I did re-watch the New Japan/NOAH feud and he was still amazing in those interpromotional tags where he was just hating everybody to death and being a violent bastard. I've gone through the '96 yearbook in that time, though, and not a lot of the juniors stuff on that did a ton for me, including things like Liger/Ohtani from March and other highly pimped juniors matches that haven't otherwise seemed to be affected by the "junior revisionism" or whatever (Ohtani/Dragon comes to mind, and to a lesser extent so does Ohtani/Samurai. In fact the only match that REALLY held up to me was Pegasus//Black Tiger). Then again, there were a couple tags and multi-man matches from that year that I thought Liger was really fun in. The last Liger match I watched was the Rey match from Starrcade, and while the match isn't all that great I did start to wonder during it why Liger was only sitting around the middle of my ballot when a little over half a decade ago he'd have been about forty sports higher. So I guess I'm conflicted and not entirely sure where I stand on Liger at this point. Honestly, he probably suffers right now from being a guy I just haven't thought much about it a long, long time, while in that same timeframe a handful of other guys have really jumped to my attention (which kind of goes back to the "fresher versus better" point Loss has brought up about Flair in the past). I need to do something about that before the deadline.

I thought he was clearly the weaker Trauma from '09-'11 or so (I watched all of this stuff as the time and haven't gone back to revisit it, so my timeline is possibly off), but then at some point he really seemed to step up huge and hit the same level as his brother. I pretty much fell off a cliff with IWRG (and all current wrestling) around mid-2012, so I have no real idea how the Teaumas have been since then, but there was a point in 2010/2011 where both guys would've been in my five favourite wrestlers in the world.

I kind of love that match and went to bat for it in the 2000 yearbook recommendation thread. I mean, I won't vote for Shane, but still.

Yeah, it was like the anti-Samson effect with Austin. He was decent-to-good early in the Dangerous Alliance run but felt like the weakest in the group by a noticeable margin. Then he cut the hair and it was around that time where he seemed to just put it together, to the point where he looked on par with anybody else in the stable. Early in the year he was mostly clotheslines, clubbering and basic headlocks/chinlocks (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), but then you watch him against Steamboat at the Clash in September and he has a far bigger bag of tricks for that match. He just flat out looked way more comfortable by then. He never really looked back after that. He's a guy I hadn't really thought about for a long time before this project, other than re-watching his 2001 run a few years back now (which held up). Going through the '96 yearbook reminded me of how much I used to love him, though. I don't love the '98/'99 stuff, but I'd still rather watch it than most other things in America at the time. He'll probably end up around the middle of my ballot.

Solar and Negro Navarro.

I don't really listen to podcasts, so I'm another one on board with Loss' idea. I took part in a couple of the SC polls and they worked great, primarily because you had a ton of people contributing to the discussion as the countdown progressed.

I'm not sure I'll rank him, but I've always been a bit of a mark for him, even his goofball karate horseshit. I've re-watched some of the Fabs/Moondogs matches from the Memphis set in the last couple years and they're still fucking great. Him wildly flinging himself at the Moondogs and trying to bite their faces off is as big a part of why as anything else.

KB8, man. KB8... Ha! I honestly did not notice that. Point remains, though, that the 90s Windham bolsters his case. At least it does to me (and without it he wouldn't be as high on my list as he'll end up being). Weighing in on DiBiase, I've been slowly going back through the Mid-South set over the last few years, and I think Ted has been right around good-at-worst in pretty much every match of his I've re-watched. The Duggan series is of course tremendous and I'm okay on the DiBiase/Williams team. I think he had a bit of a drop off after '85, but there's a lot of very good to great DiBiase stuff in '85 Mid-South. I'm not sure where I'd rank him on a list of Mid-South wrestlers for that year, but I certainly don't think his '85 laps Windham's '92, even if DiBiase played a more prominent role in his promotion at the time (I mean, Windham still had plenty of opportunities to work and have good matches in '92). Coincidentally, 1985 Mid-South and 1992 WCW are probably two of my three favourite calendar years for any wrestling promotions in history.

I would say there's absolutely stuff in the 90s that adds to Windham's case, and substantially at that. Horsemen v Doom from Starrcade '90 The Pillman feud in '91 A litany of good/very good/great matches in '92 that Barry is a big part of The Regal match from 4/93 and the Scorpio match from the June Clash There's a good deal of Windham stuff from the early 90s off the top of my head. And it's not like he was only there as luggage in any of it. Late 90s Windham/WWF Stalker is probably the 90s stuff I'd say is inconsequential, but even then there's some fun tag stuff in '99. Windham has a shot at my top 30, but without the 90s stuff he certainly wouldn't be.

That Somers match is really damn good and there's a Money Inc./Steiners match from Superstars (made the 1993 yearbook) in which I think Rotunda does one of the best drop toe holds I've ever seen. Or maybe it was DiBiase that did it. The match was also good, IIRC. I don't think I've seen any of the Rick Steiner stuff in WCW, but he's really bland in all of the other WCW stuff I've seen. Those Razor matches in 1994 WWF are not good at all. There's a match against Randy Savage on an episode of RAW that year that's pretty fun, but I thought that was mostly because of Savage being motivated to do something after Vince let him work on TV for a change. Other IRS matches that year are mostly plodding and riddled with long, sweaty chinlocks and abdominal stretches where he loosely grabs the ropes for "leverage." Granted, he wasn't working with all star talent regularly (the Waltman match was probably okay considering Waltman was pretty awesome in '94), but even within those matches he rarely did anything of note. That Somers match is REAL good, though.

I've started re-watching that run from when he came back to WWE in 2002 and the first thing he's done is make RVD look halfway worthwhile. There no way he doesn't make my top 20.

I would've voted for Tajiri even without the SMASH run, albeit lower than I will now after seeing it. His '99-'00 is a great two year run and he became my favourite wrestler in ECW history off the strength of it alone. I can't think of anybody else who managed to come across as such a genuine wrecking ball psychopath despite being a relatively small dude the way Tajiri did. The bit in the Mexican Death Match with Super Crazy where he starts skimming chairs across tables and just about decapitates someone in the crowd pretty much sums up his "dangerous little nutcase who you do not want to fuck with" character from that period, and man do I love that Tajiri. He's also involved in maybe my favourite tag match in WWF/E history, so there's no way I can't vote for him.

The match is on YouTube and it's one I was very much looking forward to watching (you pimped it in this thread already and that's when I looked for it online). If that screenshot is anything to go by then yeah, it should be good.

That channel is a goddamn goldmine. I'll definitely check that out.

I haven't, no. Is that one from '92 as well? I'm watching just about anything involving him that sounds interesting to me right now, and that definitely sounds interesting.

I'm not really a fan of either guy, but KENTA playing belligerent junior punching above his weight against heavyweights was pretty close to a can't fail prospect for a while, and I enjoyed him in that setting far more than I enjoyed Marufuji in any setting. Irrespective of how stiff they worked, Marufuji's offence at its worst looked like a contrived street dance routine.

I've watched too much awesome Fiera stuff lately not to rank him. I was on the fence with him, wondering if maybe there wasn't enough footage to justify his inclusion, but I don't think there's any less Fiera footage floating around than there is Sangre Chicana footage, and there's not a chance in hell I won't vote for Chicana. I still haven't seen a couple of his matches that made the 80s lucha set (because I'm a shithead and never finished it), but he was great in everything I did watch. Often right on the level of guys like Chicana and Satanico in those brawls, punching folk with his spiked glove and drinking their blood, recklessly flinging himself into the second row or almost killing himself with ridiculous dives nobody else would try, etc. Then there's his run in 1992 that's pretty fucking awesome. It's been a few years since I watched the Atlantis title match, but he went from teaming with Bestia Saljave as part of the Bestia/Huracan Sevilla feud early in the year, to his own feud with Dandy towards the end of the year. Sevilla seemed to bring a bunch of scrubs with him to those trios matches so any I've watched have basically been rudo gang maulings, and Fiera has always been the best or second best guy in that setting. Hijo del Solitario must've hated his life around then because Fiera abused him any time they were within forty feet of each other. During one of the January trios Fiera picks him up and basically slams him forehead-first across the ring apron board. Then there's the Dandy feud. He's a total wrecking ball in that feud. I haven't seen the hair match yet, but the trios leading up to it have been full of awesome rudo thuggery. It actually feels like the tecnicos are being bullied a bit TOO much at points, but when Fiera is wreaking havoc left, right and centre it's kind of hard to complain (and it's hard for the tecnicos to make their big comeback when Fiera is getting matches thrown out for kicking people in the balls out of sheer belligerence). There's one match that's a little disappointing relative to the other trios, from November 6th, but it starts out with Fiera instigating a near-riot and trying to hang Dandy over the ropes with his chain. He teams with Casas and El Supremo in October, but it's him that manages to project this aura of unquestioned leader of his team, which is saying something considering Casas will sometimes end up being the centre of attention just by virtue of his ridiculous charisma. I'm lowering my expectations a bit for the hair match, but the build up has been great and Fiera has been inspired every time out. And all of that says nothing about random other smatterings like the Tiger Mask II match in All Japan, his matches in WAR, the Jerry Estrada massacre in Monterrey, other random trios where he's second or third string but still acts like a vicious scumbag, etc. I'll watch the '94 Casas match and any lead-in trios that might (hopefully) be out there as well, but right now it's definitely a question of how high he lands rather than if he lands at all.

Oh settle down, I was only kidding. Steamboat's armdrags are excellent and I doubt there are more than ten wrestlers in history that did them better.

Steamboat's armdrags are pretty great, but there are about 250 luchadores who did it better.

Who had the best 10+year run and when was it (pick your own parameters)? - He had downtime at points and there were stretches where there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of notable footage, but Tenryu from around '85/'86 until the end of 2002 is probably my favourite lengthy run of anyone ever. I haven't really looked at his late-90s run after WAR pretty much died, but based on the 2000 All Japan comeback I can't imagine he sucked in '98/'99. Then in 2002 he might be the greatest cantankerous old bastard in wrestling history. He was still showing up and being awesome in New Japan and NOAH in 2004-2006 as well, whether he was being a cranky old bully to Tanahashi in the G1 or throwing water bottles at Kobashi's mouth before getting his chest caved in by chops, but I wouldn't argue he was one of the best wrestlers in the world at that point (whereas I would for 2002). Who had the best 10 year run and when was it? - I feel like this might be Tenryu from, say, '86-'96, although that run includes a couple years where he wasn't necessarily amazing. '87 had a lot of on-paper stuff that disappointed to some degree, and he unfortunately he doesn't seem to have that much from '94/'95, which is especially frustrating considering he might've been at his peak around then judging by the incredible '93 and awesome '96 those years are sandwiched in between. Fujiwara from '84-'94 is probably up there, though I've seen almost no PWFG post-1992. Maybe he was doing less after 1991 than I'm remembering as well. Actually, maybe it's Fujinami from '80-'90. Yeah, probably that. I'm not huge on All Japan the further into the decade they went, but I wouldn't really argue too hard if someone picked one of the Pillars. Who had the best 5 year run and when was it? - Lots of guys have cases here. Tenryu '89-'93. Both Kawada and Misawa '92-'96 (or any five year stretch between '90 and '97, I guess). Hashimoto '92-'96. Pick a five year stretch from the 80s and put Fujinami's name next to it. Ishikawa/Ikeda '95-'99. Fujiwara '86-'90. Who had the best 3 year run and when was it? - Tamura '97-'99. I'm down on him pre-'86ish, but Jumbo from '90-'92 was a hell of a run. Who had the best 2 year run and when was it? - Maybe Misawa in '94-'95. Or Tamura in '98-'99. Who had the best single year and when was it? - Tenryu in '89 or '93, Fujiwara in '86, Ikeda in 2010, Hashimoto in '93 or '96, Misawa in '95, Kawada in '93 or '96. I'll go Tenryu in '93 (that's my favourite, anyway).

I haven't seen a ton of Orton, but I first watched that Steamboat match years ago (pretty sure it was on Will's Steamboat set) and thought it was a total blast. I've watched it once or twice since then and it's always held up. It's one of my favourite *Steamboat* matches, never mind Orton matches.

The thing that surprised me about the Hashimto/Fuyuki match is that it's largely all matwork (or at least that's how I remember it. It's been five years since I saw it), and Hash/Fuyuki doing matwork for fifteen minutes doesn't really seem like a slam dunk on paper, but there's a constant and palpable sense of contempt between the two the whole time. Then they stand up and smash each other in the face for a bit before going back to the mat, and every time they do that the hate seems to build to even greater levels. They communicate this through really gritty matwork (and obviously through the face-smashing). As good as he is, matwork isn't necessarily something people point to as a thing Hashimoto is excellent at, but I would rather watch him work the mat than Mutoh or Chono a hundred times out of a hundred, just for the fact that with Hash there's always the sense that the match could just take a turn any second and the matwork would turn into a slaughter. It might very well still be "time killing matwork," but it never FEELS that way with Hashimoto, at least not to me.

Man, Hector v Terry Funk is sort of a dream match I never even thought about. Cool find.

Which Japanese wrestler will you rank highest? - Tenryu. Which Japanese wrestlers do you expect to make your list? - Tenryu, Fujiwara, Hashimoto, Tamura, Fujinami, Misawa, Kobashi, Taue, Choshu, Maeda, Ishikawa, Ikeda, Otsuka, Ono, Jumbo, Liger, Sano, Fuchi, Anjoh, Yamamoto, Yamazaki, Aja, Hokuto. They're not ALL necessarily locks (some of them most definitely are), but they're close enough. There's a bunch on the bubble as well. Who was the best of the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s to come out of Japan? - 70s: I guess Jumbo, but I've re-watched a chunk of 70s Jumbo over the last couple months and I'm really not huge on him pre-'86 or so. I just don't remember seeing much of anybody else recently enough to give this to them. Maybe Baba? Honestly not sure. - 80s: Fujinami. - 90s: Hashimoto. - 00s: Kawada, though a lot of that is down to the first half of the decade. - 10s: Pretty much a blind spot for me, but it feels like Akiyama from the limited stuff I've seen. Who was your favorite Ace? - Hashimoto is pretty much everything I think of in an ace. Who was your favorite top challenger? - Kawada, I guess. Who was your favorite under the radar guy? - Would've said Anjoh, but he's already been mentioned so maybe he isn't as under the radar as he used to be. Maybe Yamamoto? It's hard to find anyone who's all that under the radar at a place like this. Who was the best at their peak? - Maybe Misawa, but guys like him, Fujiwara, Hashimoto, Tenryu, Tamura, Fujinami and Kawada have all had stretches of a couple years where they were unreal. If I go by who I'd want to watch at their very best, then either Tenryu or Tamura, probably. Who has disappointed you the most? - I guess it's Jumbo after how flat he left me on the All Japan 80s set (when ten years ago he'd have possibly been my #1 for this). In terms of guys that used to be personal favourites that I've since gone way down on (Jumbo was never really a personal favourite as such), then probably Liger.