Kurt Angle

[Mad Dog]

So I see a lot of "Kurt Angle is one of the all time greats" you know the usually crap people say. I've usually just chalked this up inexperienced fans who don't know any better. Meltzer and his HOF voters have already made him a WON HOFer. The faults with Angle that I see are the following:

 

1. He's only wrestled in the WWF style. I've come to refer to the WWF style as "wrestling for dummies" because it's meant to cover up bad workers. The current great workers on the roster like Guerrero could go to any fed and immediately hold their own in different styles. Angle hasn't been given this chance but he's only good at one style.

 

2. Mic skills aren't that great. I thought he was pretty good on the mic during his first 6 months but when they started tweaking his character a bit he seemed to fall apart. His delivery is pretty varied as he can go from a methodical pace to being a motormouth in a matter of seconds. He's also inefficient with his words. When he does a longer promo it comes across like a Senator using a filibuster but Triple H is still by far the worst offender in this department

 

3. In ring he needs an experienced worker to reign him in. I say this because Angle likes to just throw bomb after bomb without taking the time to sell without a Mysterio or Guerrero in there. Remember last year he complained after Summerslam because Guerrero wanted to sell moves and it upset him because he wanted to go on to the next move. He also tends to steal other workers signature spots which annoys me personally.

 

Match wise there are a lot of things that hurt him. He overuses a lot of his moves. There are some matches where you'll see him use the same belly to belly suplex a few times and go for the anklelock several times. His selling goes from bad to good depending but then Shawn Michaels is considered a great worker despite his awful selling.

 

The big shot against Angle is his Iron Man match with Brock Lesnar. Here was his big chance to breakout of the WWF style a bit and show he could fill up an hour. He failed miserably at it. He showed a complete inability to work that long. I'll defend him a bit since you could watch Shawn Michaels completely fall apart during the second half of his Iron Man with Bret Hart.

 

That's all I've got to start. I'll probably have more to write later on.

[Loss]

I definitely agree that Angle is overhyped. The guy had the potential to be one of the greatest wrestlers ever based on his background, but I don't know that he's successfully parlayed that into a great career. He was often praised for being so good so early in 2001, but that was two years into his career, and I can think of people like Jun Akiyama, Chris Benoit, Jushin Liger, Barry Windham and Bobby Eaton that were better that early on. I do agree that his ripping off of the style of those around him is incredibly annoying, and I don't even think he's the best at the WWE style of wrestling. Eddy Guerrero, Rey Misterio Jr and Chris Benoit are better all-around performers, even though all of them have seen better days.

 

Looking at his career year by year

 

1999 - He didn't do anything remarkable that year. The best workers in the company in 1999 were Steve Austin, The Rock, HHH, Chris Jericho and X-Pac. None of them exactly had banner years either, but they were all at a level above Angle.

 

2000 - He was carried to some fairly good matches that year, but he was outshined easily by Steve Austin, The Rock, HHH, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho and Eddy Guerrero.

 

2001 - This was probably his best year, and Steve Austin, Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho were all better that year. In fact, if anyone is comparable as a worker to Angle, it's Jericho, and Jericho does the small things better than Angle.

 

2002 - This was a good year for Angle, and this is the closest he ever came to being the best in the company. That said, when Rock was around, he outshined him, and Jericho was far more consistent. You also had Eddy Guerrero coming back and working hard, and Booker T and Goldust were also better than he was overall.

 

2003 - This wasn't a good year for Angle at all, and I'd argue that Jericho, Michaels, Rey, Knoble, Eddy and Benoit were all at a higher level than he was.

 

2004 - Bad year for Angle. He had the match with Guerrero at Wrestlemania that was really nice I thought, but what else did he have? Rey and Eddy were his best opponents, although 2004 was probably the only year he trumped Jericho in the ring, which I attribute to booking as much as anything.

 

2005 - The jury is still out.

 

Hardly a HOF career, especially when the guy hasn't drawn big money and he's expected to go in based on work.

[Marty]

There's a lot to be said about what makes Angle overhyped, but his biggest problem in matches is something he's had since Day 1 in the WWF: They all resemble video game wrestling matches, particularly when he's on offense. It's almost move-move-move-move with no real connection between those moves. I just watched WrestleMania 21 the other day, and Shawn Michaels did a far better job than Angle of making the match flow nicely between moves than Angle did.

 

There's other things wrong with Angle's matches, like his inconsistent selling and how his matches come across like he has an unfocused gameplan (which kind of ties in to the point above), but the above paragraph is my main gripe about the guy.

[Tim Cooke]

"Jericho does the small things better than Angle."

 

Totally agreed and I am not even a big Jericho fan. The video game comment is spot on as well. But as long as Meltzer believes in Angle, I guess most people will believe too.

 

Or it will be discounted as a recent outlast on the internet against "so and so,"

 

Tim

[Guest Some Guy]

While I enjoy watching Angle's matches for the most part, I agree with what has been said. Especially the video game content. But that is attribuable to WWE training. Angle is all punk, kick, belly-to-belly, and anklelock.

 

I've never really gotten the logic of that. He seldom does anything to the ankle before locking on the hold. Take the WM with Shawn Michaels: Angle worked the back for the whole heat segment and then wins with an anklelock, why? Explain how that made sense. If Angle's finish was the Torture Rack then I could buy into it or if he won with the Angle Slam.

 

I can buy into the logic of him being a grappler and using suplexes to take him opponent down and wear him out. But three Belly-to-bellies and three roling Germans into an anklelock doesn't really work for me. If the anklelock was sold like it is in real life, with an imediate tap out, then I would be more forgiving.

[Mad Dog]

I could buy the anklelock being a killer finisher but he basically gets the submission by appling the hold until the guy tapes. That's bad work because it means your doing the same move over and over. Even working over the knee would be better than the nothing you get.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Angle worked the back for the whole heat segment and then wins with an anklelock, why? Explain how that made sense.

HBK has a very bad back. Thus, it makes perfect sense for Angle, a guy who has a lot of suplexes (you know, moves that drop a guy on his back) and other such moves in his arsenal to destroy HBK's back; I mean, when your back is fucked, you're fucked. Once HBK's back was messed up enough, it made it harder for HBK to get out of the ankle lock (I mean, try and do anything with a really bad back) so Angle slapped it on and HBK simply couldn't get out.

 

Which I hate, by the way. It seems that people only tap to that move when they can't reach the ropes or counter in some other way. Why not just grab on to his foot and hold him in the middle of the ring, if that's the case?

[Mad Dog]

Why not just grab on to his foot and hold him in the middle of the ring, if that's the case?

Because Angle stands with the hold instead of doing it like Ken Shamrock did.

[Guest Tha Cunnysmythe]

Does Angle still use Benoit's Rolling Germans?

[Guest Cam Chaos]

The problem is they treat it like it is any other wrestling submission to build the drama so while it is unrealistic it makes sense given it's entertainment. My main beef is that he doesn't use the leg grapevine version more often and that people escape the wrong way (to escape, keep rolling in the direction the pressure is being applied on your foot, even in wrestling it would be fine to get to the ropes/roll out of the ring) or even tap out when he's standing with the ankle lock when it's been shown many types that people can counter by spinning around, rolling through and grabbing Angle's ankle... I think I saw an enzuiguri counter before as well. They've shown so many escapes and built up the leg grapevine version as death so it doesn't make sense for him not to use that version all the time.

[Guest Some Guy]

Angle worked the back for the whole heat segment and then wins with an anklelock, why? Explain how that made sense.

HBK has a very bad back. Thus, it makes perfect sense for Angle, a guy who has a lot of suplexes (you know, moves that drop a guy on his back) and other such moves in his arsenal to destroy HBK's back; I mean, when your back is fucked, you're fucked. Once HBK's back was messed up enough, it made it harder for HBK to get out of the ankle lock (I mean, try and do anything with a really bad back) so Angle slapped it on and HBK simply couldn't get out.

 

Which I hate, by the way. It seems that people only tap to that move when they can't reach the ropes or counter in some other way. Why not just grab on to his foot and hold him in the middle of the ring, if that's the case?

I undestand that HBK had back surgery 5 years ago. I think the back work is over down and makes it nearly impossible for him to sell it all the way through. If your back is completely fucked, like you said, you can't really do anything, much less a superkick or what have you.

 

I don't think anyone really buys that Shawn's back is that bad beacuse he still takes a lot of bumps and does all of his signature moves from before the injury. To me Angle should at least pay some lip service to injuring the ankle in some way. Whether it be stomping the ankle a few times rather than his opponent's head or chest. Something to set it up, especially because that is his primary finisher. I can't even remember the last time he won a match with the Angle Slam. He does have a bunch of nice ways to lock on the hold, but as has been complained about by everyone no one taps right away and it seems like they only will when he drops down and grapevines the leg. Maybe if he worked the leg a little he could convince his opponents that it might be better if they tapped a little sooner. Shawn held on for like 4 minutes at WM and in that hold no one would last 30 seconds in real life. It hurts like hell and can easlily break an ankle, if you've ever had someone do it to you then you know.

 

Plus, Shawn wasn't selling the back pain being the cause for him to tap, it was all the ankle pain. The back had nothing to do with his inabilty to get out of the hold, Angle just wouldn't let go no matter what once he got it on.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

I'd like to point out right now that I am NOT of the "everything has to factor into the finish" mindset. I don't see the problem with picking apart an already injured body part to wear the guy down, even if your finisher focuses on a different part of their body.

 

The back had nothing to do with his inabilty to get out of the hold, Angle just wouldn't let go no matter what once he got it on.

One could easily argue that Angle's plan was to wear HBK down enough that he could slap on the grapevine, because no one has ever broken that hold, so he knew that no matter what shape HBK's ankle was in when he locked on the hold, he'd have to tap eventually.

[Guest Some Guy]

I don't think that everything has to factor into the finish but something should.

 

One could argue that his plan was to wear down HBK for the anklelock, but do you think Angle would? All I'm asking is that he acknoweldges that that his finisher is an anklelick during the match. He doesn't have to go full out Bret Hart on the leg but something besides a few countered anklelocks would be nice.

[Guest Sass]

Does Angle still use Benoit's Rolling Germans?

No, he stopped. For now.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Some Guy, I think we've already had this exact discussion before. I'm getting deja vu over here.

[Coffey]

I would really like to reply to this topic more in-depth, however I don't know how long my keyboard will allow it to happen. I've been having a lot of problems with it lately. It used to just be fixed with a simple restart. Then I had to start unplugging the keyboard cord and re-plugging it back in. Now, neither of those options work. When it goes out, it's out for awhile. It's down until it decides to work again. The problem is, I don't lose complete function of the keyboard, it just acts as if the Alt button is always held down. So, if I hit "e" for example, it's like hitting "Alt + e" which brings up a window. I guess it's a nice little way to educate myself on all the hotkeys until I can get a new keyboard.

 

Anyway, onto the topic at hand. First, I'll just state what comes to my mind about Angle. Then I'll address specific statements made in this thread. I think that's the best way to go with it. I don't want to just reply with "I agree" or "I disagree." There's been a lot of generalizations made so far. I'm sure that I'll make some more. I don't know how well thought out this post is going to be, or if it's going to make a lot of sense. I'm not going to go back and edit it to put my paragraphs in order. I'm sure that I'll jump around a lot. I'm sure that I'll ramble even more. So, I'm sorry ahead of time. I hope you can straggle through the mess.

 

I think Kurt Angle is a good worker. I don't think that he's perfect. I don't think that anyone in WWE is. Hell, I can't think of any wrestler anywhere that is. Botches happen. Sometimes you get stuck with a shitty opponent. Sometimes things don't click. Sometimes you are trying to salvage something that can't be salvaged. Hell, sometimes it's the storyline, the gimmick, the referee or the announcing that kill a match. I've watched many matches that I thought sucked simply because Earl Hebner was the referee. Kurt Angle, for the most part, makes gold out of a lot of straw. Sure, his matches with "better" workers are better matches but that's not because of Angle. It's not because of his opponent either. It's both. It takes two to tango. A good match is obviously going to be better if both men in the match are better than average workers. Chris Benoit isn't having fabulous matches with Luther Reins either. Shitty workers are still shitty no matter whom is trying to carry them to something watchable. You can only do so much.

 

That being said, when Angle is put with a good worker, for the most part, I enjoy the match. I've seen matches from Jericho where he's in the ring with good workers and I still didn't like the match. I can say the same for Steve Austin, Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit. Yes, I can say that about Angle too. That's my point. Why is Kurt Angle getting singled out? For the most part, he delivers. You can't use the "WWE style" as a knock against him anymore than you could use it against Rey Mysterio or Chris Benoit. Yet Benoit is still universally accepted as a good worker? Angle is still good. He's just as good as Benoit is to me. Better, even, when factoring in non-wrestling roles. Hell, just a couple of days ago, right here, we had some people discussion how Benoit has "fallen off" recently.

 

So, I'm asking, what are you expecting? What are you wanting to see? A few extra stomps to the opponents ankle isn't going to make you dislike Angle any less. It's not going to turn him into some psychological wrestling guru. If he works the leg, psychologically speaking, the Ankle Lock still doesn't make any sense. I remember watching a match between Chris Benoit and Rob Van Dam. Obviously RVD doesn't have the greatest psychology. The move that he sells the most is his own finisher! Anyway, in the match, Chris Benoit worked the shoulder the entire match. The Swandive Headbutt hit the shoulder. Benoit connected with shoulder breakers. Hell, he even did rolling northern light suplexes with the arm tucked Arn Anderson style. It was amazing to watch. What happened in the end? Five-Star Frogsplash, thanks for playing. None of it payed off. Hell, RVD even escaped the Crossface and slapped Benoit in his own shitty version of the move. Benoit did everything right but it was still disappointing. In the end, no matter what Benoit did, he was still going to lose. He was still working in vain. It makes all the psychology come off as a waste of time to me. I'd rather the psychology not be there if they're just going to lose.

 

Ric Flair was the best example of this. In every single match he'd kill his opponents leg. He'd slap on the figurefour leglock and they wouldn't tap out. The opponent would flip it over. They'd make it to the ropes. They'd power out of it. Whatever. Yet Flair would still win matches with rollups and cheating. So, why didn't he just try a new gameplan? It's obvious that the legwork wasn't getting the job done. From a common sense standpoint, if something doesn't work, you'd quit trying it. Right? Flair should've just focused his entire gameplan around cheating. Find new ways to distract the referee so that you can low blow, eye poke and pull the hair of your opponent. Find ways to get your feet on the ropes outside of the refs viewpoint. Slap your opponent in the head with a pipe after a ref bump. It would've all been more believable than watching a once established move no longer have any effect.

 

I think the same thing when watching Kurt Angle matches. It's like, why bother with the psychology from a common sense standpoint? The opponent isn't going to tap out to the move any quicker. Hell, half the time the move gets reversed anyway. That's why I think the leg grapevine point made earlier was crucial. Everytime that he grapevines the leg, he gets the victory. So, why doesn't he just apply it that way every time? There seems to be unwritten laws in wrestling. Obviously you don't want the crowd to know who's going over before the match happens. So, you stick to your gameplan. You work the leg. You work the back. You work the arm. You set up for your finisher. That's what I think Angle does. Or at least, at one time he did. He works the back. He's setting up the Angle Slam. It just never gets the job done. So, the Ankle Lock is the backup gameplan. It's just somewhere along the way, he forgot to throw the Angle Slam in there and instead opted for earlier Ankle Lock attempts. It's just his character progression over time.

 

Angle doesn't botch a lot of spots. He makes a good goofy character. He makes a good serious character if he doesn't have to back it up on the microphone. He has great facial expressions. Selling, obviously, isn't his strong point. It makes sense for his character though. It's always brought up that he's an olympic gold medalist. That he wrestled, and won, with a broken neck. So, why would he stay down after a german suplex? Why would a clothesline make him sell? To be honest, I don't care about Angle stealing other wrestlers moves all that much either. As long as it's not a finisher. I don't mind him using the rolling german suplexes. That means that he learned something in the ring from one of his opponents. At least that's how I look at it. No one complains about the Three Amigos that Eddie Guerrero does. Val Venis was doing that shit four years ago!

 

So, basically, my thoughts on Angle go something like this: I don't think he's a bad worker. I don't think he's the best but he's still better than the average WWE worker. Same for mic skills. He has his high points and his low points. Sometimes his promos are money, sometimes they're goofy. Sometimes they seem way too forced.

 

1. He's only wrestled in the WWF style. I've come to refer to the WWF style as "wrestling for dummies" because it's meant to cover up bad workers. The current great workers on the roster like Guerrero could go to any fed and immediately hold their own in different styles. Angle hasn't been given this chance but he's only good at one style.

I think that this statement is unfair. Who's to say that if he went to work for another company that he wouldn't be any good there? He's made good of what was presented to him. He's excelled at what was expected of him. He could just as easily work in TNA, ROH or Japan. I have no doubt in my mind. Especially now that he's created a name for himself.

 

2. Mic skills aren't that great. I thought he was pretty good on the mic during his first 6 months but when they started tweaking his character a bit he seemed to fall apart. His delivery is pretty varied as he can go from a methodical pace to being a motormouth in a matter of seconds. He's also inefficient with his words. When he does a longer promo it comes across like a Senator using a filibuster but Triple H is still by far the worst offender in this department

I addressed this a little bit earlier in my post. When he's with the right character, he's great in promo's and on the microphone. He's provided me with some of the best entertainment both in and out of the ring in my history of watching professional wrestling. He was great on the mic in Team ECK. He was good when he was with Austin and they were both kissing up to Vince McMahon. I liked what he was doing during the Love Triangle with Stephanie and Triple H too.

 

3. In ring he needs an experienced worker to reign him in. I say this because Angle likes to just throw bomb after bomb without taking the time to sell without a Mysterio or Guerrero in there. Remember last year he complained after Summerslam because Guerrero wanted to sell moves and it upset him because he wanted to go on to the next move. He also tends to steal other workers signature spots which annoys me personally.

I already went over that pretty thoroughly.

 

I definitely agree that Angle is overhyped.

Overhyped when compared to what? The rest of the roster? Shit, most of the roster is trash. When compared to the other main eventers? Triple H & The Undertaker? The Rock who's gone? Austin who's gone? Maybe you mean to Guerrero and Benoit? Benoit who Angle is better than in the overall department or Guerrero who couldn't carry the load as the world champion? What are we basing this off of? I think Angle is one of the better packages in WWE right now. Even hurt.

 

Also, since when do you have to be the best wrestling in the company to be any good? WWE should have the best talent in the world. Angle coming in second or third every year certainly doesn't make him bad.

 

"Jericho does the small things better than Angle."

I'm singling out this quote because it made some impact and I'm not seeing it. Especially in WWE. What "little things" does Jericho do at all?

 

There's a lot to be said about what makes Angle overhyped, but his biggest problem in matches is something he's had since Day 1 in the WWF: They all resemble video game wrestling matches, particularly when he's on offense.

By that I assume you mean nothing but big moves over and over? You'd rather he threw in headlocks and shit? Maybe I just don't know what you mean. He certainly has good transition. He might not be the best seller but he has transition.

 

as long as Meltzer believes in Angle, I guess most people will believe too

My liking of Angle is for personal reasons not because of what some e-schmuck says. I can definitely see this quote having a lot of truth to it. Scott Keith's word used to be gospel as well.

 

Angle is all punch, kick, belly-to-belly, and anklelock

That's simply not true. His match with Benoit at the Royal Rumble certainly wasn't that. Besides, it's "WWE style." The same thing people knock other wrestlers for. He's not doing anything different from anyone else on the roster. I guess that's part of the problem with the product. That being said, Angle, at one time, still stood out more than almost anyone else. I've seen Angle do Moonsaults off of cages. I've seen him do Olympic Slams off the top rope and off podiums. I've seen him brawl with Austin and wrestler with Benoit. He may have slowed down a little since all of his injuries but he's certainly a lot more than punch, kick, finisher.

[Timbo Slice]

I think Kurt Angle is a good worker. I don't think that he's perfect. I don't think that anyone in WWE is. Hell, I can't think of any wrestler anywhere that is. Botches happen. Sometimes you get stuck with a shitty opponent. Sometimes things don't click. Sometimes you are trying to salvage something that can't be salvaged. Hell, sometimes it's the storyline, the gimmick, the referee or the announcing that kill a match. I've watched many matches that I thought sucked simply because Earl Hebner was the referee. Kurt Angle, for the most part, makes gold out of a lot of straw. Sure, his matches with "better" workers are better matches but that's not because of Angle. It's not because of his opponent either. It's both. It takes two to tango. A good match is obviously going to be better if both men in the match are better than average workers. Chris Benoit isn't having fabulous matches with Luther Reins either. Shitty workers are still shitty no matter whom is trying to carry them to something watchable. You can only do so much.

 

Angle has never carried a match in his entire life. Period. He might have controlled a match because he was the heel, but he has never carried a match in his entire life. Chris Benoit had a great match with TYSON TOMKO. A-TRAIN had a good series with Benoit. Those two are both worse-than-average workers and Benoit did all he could to make those matches better than they had any right to be. In fact, go back and watch these three matches:

 

Angle/Big Show-The 2002 Armageddon title switch, right before Angle/Benoit happened at RR.

Eddie/Big Show-The match that is now starting to get a lot of praise.

 

You had the Angle match having a lot of big and impressive spots, but then in the Eddie match, you have a match that wasn't really flashy, but told a better story. Oh, it had the spots, but Eddy was so great at working to his opponents strengths that he didn't have to be flashy. He made Show look like what he's supposed to be, a monster who didn't want to lose.

 

That being said, when Angle is put with a good worker, for the most part, I enjoy the match. I've seen matches from Jericho where he's in the ring with good workers and I still didn't like the match. I can say the same for Steve Austin, Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit. Yes, I can say that about Angle too. That's my point. Why is Kurt Angle getting singled out?

 

He gets undue praise. He gets praise for doing a lot of things wrong in the ring. Doesn't sell, he doesn't use logic at all (if the ankle hold is the finisher, why use it a bajillion times in the context of a match?), and he can't hold a match together. How many times have you seen him take a big move, see his opponent go up top, and then, without selling the damage, simply run up and give him the suplex?

 

"Does this make logic?"-Konann

 

For the most part, he delivers. You can't use the "WWE style" as a knock against him anymore than you could use it against Rey Mysterio or Chris Benoit. Yet Benoit is still universally accepted as a good worker? Angle is still good. He's just as good as Benoit is to me. Better, even, when factoring in non-wrestling roles. Hell, just a couple of days ago, right here, we had some people discussion how Benoit has "fallen off" recently.

 

You proved the opposite of the point you're trying to prove with your first statement. When Angle is in there with a worker who can do things in the ring better than he can, in the selling, logic, and composition department, the match is better. It's never because of Angle. In nearly all the cases when it comes to Angle against a better worker, Angle is along for the ride. The "WWE Style" argument is a stupid one to make FOR Angle, let alone against Mysterio or Benoit. As far as Benoit and Rey go, in their first 7 years of professional wrestling, Angle has NEVER SNIFFED THEIR JOCKS in the "good match" department. But you've probably never seen matches outside of the Rey/Benoit DVDs that were non-US, huh? I'll tell you one thing: Sasuke/Benoit is probably not even in the top 50 matches ever, but it smokes the best Angle match ever. Benoit comes from the school where promos don't matter. He never had to cut a promo in Japan or in Mexico. He simply had to go out and wrestle. Granted, he's not the best promo man ever, but Angle isn't either. When he's cutting solo promos, I can't see them being good. When he's with a better promo guy (watch the Austin exchanges), he can be good. And Benoit's post-WM performances lately have been some of the best things I've seen recently. Angle should fuckin watch how Benoit sold his beatdowns and how he sold his injured shoulder.

 

The problem with the analysis of that match is that simply because RVD didn't sell the shoulder, you're saying the match is a waste. That's how Benoit's offense was. Angle works towards the Ankle Lock with the Ankle Lock. Benoit used about every other move OUTSIDE of the Crippler Crossface to work to the Crippler Crossface. Just because a guy loses the match doesn't make the psychology worse than it actually was.

 

I'd rather the psychology not be there if they're just going to lose.

 

So I guess that Toshiaki Kawada guy sucked, huh?

 

On Flair: He resorted to cheating when his ACTUAL GAMEPLAN (read: Work the leg towards the Figure-Four) didn't work. It's a last resort. Just like Angle's grapevine of the leg. That's about the ONLY smart thing he's done with the Ankle Lock. Although, for that to actually be bought as legit, he should really go straight to it if the Angle Lock doesn't work. The Figure-Four and the Ankle Lock have won both men matches. That's why they use them. Using them over and over again accomplishes NOTHING.

 

There seems to be unwritten laws in wrestling. Obviously you don't want the crowd to know who's going over before the match happens. So, you stick to your gameplan. You work the leg. You work the back. You work the arm. You set up for your finisher. That's what I think Angle does.Or at least, at one time he did. He works the back. He's setting up the Angle Slam. It just never gets the job done. So, the Ankle Lock is the backup gameplan. It's just somewhere along the way, he forgot to throw the Angle Slam in there and instead opted for earlier Ankle Lock attempts. It's just his character progression over time.

 

That's not character progression. Working the midsection over and then going to the Ankle Lock instead of the logical progression (The Angle Slam), is called REGRESSION.

 

By the way, you're saying that Angle should never sell a single wrestling move because he won a gold medal with a broken neck. That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Ric Flair broke his back, yet for 30 years he sold pretty well. Austin broke his neck, but he still came back to sell pretty damn well in his matches.

 

Your points about Angle being a good promo guy are once again disproven with your backing up of the claim. He's not a good solo promo guy. He always needs to be with somebody else, and when he's with somebody else, he's a good straight man.

 

Overhyped when compared to what? The rest of the roster? Shit, most of the roster is trash. When compared to the other main eventers? Triple H & The Undertaker? The Rock who's gone? Austin who's gone? Maybe you mean to Guerrero and Benoit? Benoit who Angle is better than in the overall department or Guerrero who couldn't carry the load as the world champion? What are we basing this off of? I think Angle is one of the better packages in WWE right now. Even hurt.

 

Also, since when do you have to be the best wrestling in the company to be any good? WWE should have the best talent in the world. Angle coming in second or third every year certainly doesn't make him bad.

 

Benoit had a better run as champ than Angle did. Go back and tell me that Angle's matches as champ were anywhere as good as Benoit's matches were, when he got a good match out of Kane and led Randy Orton to his best match ever, let alone make the stale 3-way match that WWE just LOVES using seem good. And Benoit/Angle from RR 03, the Angle supporters #1 go-to match, is not that good. When making the "Benoit isn't as good as Angle because he doesn't cut a good promo" argument, realize that Benoit never got over because he was a good promo like Austin and Rocky did. He got over because he wrestled. Angle should have been like Benoit: An Olympic Champion who came in here to wrestle, but instead, he got sucked into the "entertainment" instead of the "wrestling." He forgot about the wrestling, which is a true shame, because if he actually went out and tried to wrestle like Benoit does, he would have been over and he'd be mentioned in the same breath as a Benoit or a Guerrero when it comes to GREATNESS.

 

As far as Jericho goes, he'll put over big moves. Remember when he was feuding with Batista, and he got knocked out by his lariat? That wasn't even Batista's finisher. But because of how Jericho treated that move, he got the move over to the point that when Batista used it on other wrestlers, it was a bonafide finisher. Angle never sold a finisher correctly unless he lost the match.

 

There's a lot to be said about what makes Angle overhyped' date=' but his biggest problem in matches is something he's had since Day 1 in the WWF: They all resemble video game wrestling matches, particularly when he's on offense.[/quote']

 

By that I assume you mean nothing but big moves over and over? You'd rather he threw in headlocks and shit?

 

Here's the thing: Headlocks mean nothing at all unless they're a part of the bigger match. There are plenty of matches where a headlock or any other move that might be perceived as a rest move is a major part of the match. Watch Eddy/Benoit from the 1996 NJPW Best of the Super Juniors tournament. Hell, Kawada/Jumbo Tsuruta from 10/24/91 had Kawada use nothing BUT a headlock for about the first four minutes of the match until Jumbo hit him with a backdrop. You really need to not study WHAT moves are used, but rather HOW they are used.

 

Angle is never gonna be a great wrestler because the skills he brings to the table simply aren't great. He's not a great worker, he's not a great seller, he doesn't have great transitions (Note: A pop-up superplex after not selling the move you just got hit with is NOT a great transition), and he can never take a wrestler that isn't as good as he is and lead him to a better match. End of story.

[Ray]

Angle has never carried a match in his entire life. Period.

 

he can never take a wrestler that isn't as good as he is and lead him to a better match. End of story.

This is a remarkably ignorant statement. Angle had a good match with John Cena at No Mercy 2003 and it was a complete and total carry job. Easily the best Cena match I've ever seen. Hell, it was such a good carry job he had people fooled into thinking Cena "improved" his work.

 

 

And Kurt Angle is underrated on the "smart" message boards. We have countless raving bandwagon jumpers running around, acting as if Angle is completely worthless and doesn't have a clue how to work a decent match. It's absurd. Of course DaveMeltzer overrates Angle. But, just like the "Flair is overrated" and "Michaels is overrated" anti-Meltz arguments, the pendulum has clearly swung too far in the other direction.

[Mad Dog]

I think that this statement is unfair. Who's to say that if he went to work for another company that he wouldn't be any good there? He's made good of what was presented to him. He's excelled at what was expected of him. He could just as easily work in TNA, ROH or Japan. I have no doubt in my mind. Especially now that he's created a name for himself.

I would doubt it. He'd have to do a lot of work on his selling to even think about Japan. I doubt he would deal with the extended mat work well.

[Coffey]

...fucking Albert and Rick Steiner are working in Japan. You're going to tell me that Angle wouldn't be able to cut it?

[Tim Cooke]

Working in Japan isn't that hard. Having good matches is.

 

Tim

[Guest DylanWaco]

The reason Angle is so overrated is because he's a guy who's potential level was exceptionally high from the jump. From the moment he started he was a solid in ring performer, with natural charisma, good mic skills, et. When he started varying his offense and trying new things in the ring it was only a matter of time before people started drooling over him.

 

The truth is that in some ways it was deserved. There was a big whole in the roster at that point for that sort of thing, with only Benoit really being capable of it, and he has been working something of a toned down "Benoit-lite" style since at least 00. Angle comes in and starts throwing out "big offense" and people just went mark shit. It happens.

 

Personally I don't think Angle was ever as good as Lesnar was when Lesnar hit his stride though Lesnar probably showed too much ass for what he was supposed to be doing. Still, Angle has pretty much mastered the art of the "good" match..the problem is that he can't really be pushed beyond that level no matter who he is paired with and the closest he came was one of the rare instances of him stepping outside of his niche to work in a slightly different way (v. Rey Summerslam 02).

 

Angle isn't a bad worker and because of how he works he most certainly is capable of carrying choads. The problem is that he isn't really capable of working in different ways, which pretty much precludes him from ever being as good as he should be.