Thoughts on the following wrestlers

[Loss]

Just random wrestlers or personalities involved in wrestling. Tell us what you think of them. This may be better than doing a thread about one wrestler in the long run.

 

Randy Orton

Tazz

Chris Jericho

Shane McMahon

Antonio Inoki

Vader

The Road Warriors

Tito Santana

Jim Cornette

 

Have at it!

[Loss]

I'll go first:

 

Randy Orton - He's been pushed as something special, but he's not really anything special at all. The absolute definition of "generic" in just about every way. Isn't horrible in the ring or horrible on the mic, but isn't really good in either area for that matter. He probably needs a heel turn and a jump to Smackdown after Mania to get him back on the right career path. Batista getting over has really screwed with him.

 

Tazz - Was something special in ECW because of the way he was pushed, but hasn't really seen his potential realized in WWE. I think he would have gotten more over had he not arrived at the same time as Benoit and Guerrero. He's a decent announcer. That said, if I never saw a Tazz match or heard a Tazz interview, would I be missing anything?

 

Chris Jericho - Always a good worker, but I've never liked him less than I have in the past six months. Probably should have been pushed hard and kept at that level, but his mic work and ring work has been in the dumps for a while now. Has a tendency to treat his opponents like jokes when they're doing serious promos, although that's probably more the fault of the writers than Jericho. Has had some really good matches in his time, but his career seems to be winding down, save a miracle. Not as special seeming as he used to be.

 

Shane McMahon - Took incredible bumps that made the full-time workers look like shit and had main eventers selling for him like he was one of them when he clearly wasn't. I don't know that he was one of the worst examples of nepotism, since he could at least entertain a crowd, but he's up there. I'm glad he's not a central figure in TV storylines anymore.

 

Antonio Inoki - The biggest star in the history of Japan who got to that level because he knew how to manipulate the populace. His popularity, from what I've read, is more on the level of Jordan or Ali than Hogan or Austin in the US. I've seen him in some excellent matches, but I've also seen him in some horrid ones. Seems to be on a witchhunt to ruin pro wrestling as we know it by putting pro wrestlers against shootfighters.

 

Vader - The best big man in history. Incredible aura with some awesome high-flying offense and big bumping, especially for someone his size. Was working at a level above just about anyone in the US in the early 1990s, and has excelled in the US heavyweight style, the Japanese pro style and even the UWFI shoot-style. A verifiable legend.

 

The Road Warriors - Easily the most over tag team of all time. Drew big money wherever they went for many years, and were huge stars on a regional, national and international level. Probably hung on too long, but that's par the course for that generation of wrestlers. Got over largely because of their size and dominance. They were reasonably athletic, but weren't really great workers because they didn't sell really at all. They'll never really be duplicated, although we've seen promoters try many times. Never really got the push alongside the Hogans and Warriors they should have gotten in the WWF, instead being confined to the tag division and not even getting a proper blowoff with Demolition.

 

Tito Santana - A very good worker at his peak who had a memorable feud in the mid 1980s with Greg Valentine. Not a legend, but a guy who was a terrific upper-midcarder in his day. Ran the short-lived AWF in 1996, which was largely seen as a joke. Provided some great one-liners for Bobby Heenan that couldn't be said today because they'd offend pretty much everyone. I think it's fair to say he had a solid career.

 

Jim Cornette - There's never been a better manager in wrestling history. The only true peer he has is Bobby Heenan. Awesome at spouting off long-winded, fast-paced rants against people he hates, both in and out of character. Has an unparalleled understanding of wrestling psychology and how to work a crowd. Wasn't just a typical manager, as he was usually involved in spots and sequences in Midnight Express matches that improved the match and served a purpose. It's sad that there's not really a market anymore for male managers.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Orton - He isn't someone you want to like to look at and doesn't have the charm of The Rock or even Cena to offset his cockiness. His turn was too soon, he got squashed and discredited month after month (a rebel doesn't really work when he's getting his ass stomped every other week rather than getting the upper hand). He could have been bigger if they'd held off the turn and let him win some big matches post-turn without luck being big factor.

 

Tazz - Heyman made the most of him, making him into a badass despite his stature. Far from a good worker but apparently very creative and a good commentator.

 

Chris Jericho - Wasted potential. Could have been a real star but they dropped him down from The Rock to Road Dogg. Then when he did get to the top he was taking care of dogs and needing constant interference to win. A mid-carder for life who has become stale and limited unless working with someone he likes.

 

Shane McMahon - I am glad he does not wrestle anymore. His jumping chairshot always sucked and his best match was with Test. Not bad as a heel manager, but otherwise little more than a masochist that took stupid bumps.

 

Inoki - Is screwing himself over by cross promoting with MMA and feeding his talent to MMAers. Yuji Nagata went from over to ice cold following Mirko "Cro-Cop"'s KO and then after he'd worked to reestablish his spot he got crushed by Fedor. Needs to focus on his own product rather than trying to cross over into other markets and stop all this "shoot" bullshit. Fujita's title loss last year stunk and the crowd didn't let it slide. Inoki needs to focus on making his own show better, rather than trying to imitate PRIDE or K-1 or compete with them.

 

Vader - Awesome monster heel. I loved the headgear with the gas. WWE ruined him and I have no clue why.

 

The Road Warriors - Very good at what they did even if what they did wasn't always technically refined. RIP Hawk.

 

Santana - Kind of bland but entertaining against the right opponent.

 

Cornette - I wish they'd take Lawler off TV and put Cornette in there. He's twice as sharp and caustic without the lechery.

[Guest Some Guy]

Randy Orton - Nothing special. They had a chance to get him over but turned him face when HHH should have made the turn. They gave him the belt before he'd done anyhting to deserve and the crowd realized it very quickly, that combined with poor booking killed his heat and credibility. He needs to go to SD! and turn heel.

 

Tazz - I've always liked Taz. I think he's had some good matches, some bad matches, but never a great one. He could have in WWF if they gave him the chance because the level on worker was so much better than ECW. I think he was money in the bank that Vince blew because he doesn't like short people. Taz had an aura and a charisma that made people not want to fuck with him. If he had been given a program with Angle, Jericho, Benoit, Eddy, or any other good worker he'd have gotten way over and could have main evented. Heymen let the guy talk shit and he always backed it up.

 

Chris Jericho - He's lost any and all motivation and it shows. He's played "the Game" and lost.

 

Off topic a little: I heard an interview with RVD the other day and he was asked if he liked SD! better than Raw. He replied that on SD! it's the "not the same game, and by game, I do mean Game." He's gotten to the point where he realizes that he's never going to advance and he just doesn't care anymore. Great job by WWE ther to keep their talent happy and motivated.

 

Shane McMahon - I never liked him. I thought his promos were pretty brutal ("C is for cookie"), his puches looked like shit but he still insisted on throwing them and potato the shit of guys. He took crazy bumps that the real wrestlers wouldn't be able to take because they have house shows to work. He intentially over shadowed guys he managed by making himself the focal point rather than the talent. He injured Kurt Angle leading into the Invasion angle. He was named owner of WCW which hurt the angle badly out of the gates. But he's probably a pretty nice guy.

 

Antonio Inoki - Haven't seen to much of him. He had a pretty good match with Vader that I've seen.

 

Vader - Just awesome. One of my favorite wrestlers.

 

The Road Warriors - Very over for about 5 years in the 80s and then they sort of puttered out adn hung on way too long. Their WWF in 96-98 was brutal.

 

Tito Santana - Decent worker who sold well for the heels he was building up. He must have done something right to keep his job that long.

 

Jim Cornette - After Heenan he's the best manager I've ever seen, he's funny, a loud mouth, and very southern old school.

[Guest Crucifixio Jones]

Just looking over these names I can already tell there's going to be a lot of WWF hate contained in my responses. Just consider yourself warned.

 

Randy Orton - This is a guy I never thought would be where he's at today. I used to recap Velocity for TSM when he first debuted and he was a mainstay there and on Heat. I didn't think they had any more plans for Orton than they had for Chuck Palumbo. As a wrestler I find him athletic enough and since being pushed, I've actually grown to like his natural charisma and style. But I don't see anything about him that screams superstar or anything about him that says he deserves to be pushed above anyone else on the roster. You gotta believe it's because of his dad.

 

Tazz - This is one individual I do get upset about when discussing. I know he would've never made it in Vince's Land of the Giants even if he was given a fair shake but what pisses me off is that WWE never even really tried. They simply signed him (and the Dudley Boys) away to help in putting ECW out of its misery. Taz was easily my favorite character in ECW, if not wrestler and I miss seeing the Orange & Black Attack, the One-man Crime Spree, the Human Suplex Machine cut those bad-ass NY-accented promos about how he was gonna choke you out.

 

Chris Jericho - This is the guy that actively made me hate WWE. Not because of anything he did, mind you. For a loooong time, Jericho was my favorite wrestler. His character in WCW was the total package and to me, what the perfect "asshole/chickenshit" heel should be. Then he came to the WWF. Vince & Co. have done so little with Jericho over the years that I no longer care about him. And that's why I hate WWE. If you can take my absolute favorite wrestler and book him so poorly that I view him as a disppointment and no longer even care what happens to him, then you have accomplished a mighty task.

 

The Road Warriors - My earliest memories of the Roadies was watching the NWA on Saturday afternoons, hearing the first strains of "Ironman", knowing some jobber team was gonna get SQUASHED. I don't know anyone who didn't like the Road Warriors. Looking back now, I can see they were some non-wrestling, no-selling (but athletic) men but back then, I couldn't care less. Sad that my final memories of them include seeing them embarrassed by the likes of Road Dogg Jesse James and Bad Ass Billy Gunn, paired with Droz and seeing Hawk portrayed as a drunk who tried to take hs own life by jumping off of the Titantron.

 

Shane McMahon - Everyone talks about his insane bumping and how much he sucked and this is all very true. But if we were playing word association and you said "Shane", I'd say "vs. Kurt Angle, KOTR." I can still hear Shane's head bouncing off of the concrete echoing through that arena. I wasn't impressed by it or the match in general (though crashing through that REAL glass was BEYOND stupid), but it's just stuck in my head. Plus, I used to wonder where that hot chick Marissa Mazola disappeared to and it turns out, she married Shane. Dammit.

 

Jim Cornette - one of the best managers and best wrestling minds PERIOD EVER in the business. I always thought it was a shame that WWE never gave this guy the book for a little while just to see how things would go. I think with the proper checks in place, letting Cornette book one show and Heyman book the other would make for some very interesting product. I know what manager they CALL the Mouth of the South but I also know which one really DESERVES that nickname and he don't need no megaphone to justify it. Cornette can TALK and his one-liners are equal only to Heenan's.

[Loss]

I was under the impression for a long time that Cornette booked the WWF in 1996, but he was merely one of many voices, with Vince still having total autonomy. A true rivalry with good shows would definitely develop with him controlling RAW and Heyman controlling SD, but he seems happy not having to travel and working in OVW, and I can't say I blame him.

[Coffey]

ORTON : I thought that he was going to be something special. His taped RNN segments showed a lot of charisma. That being said, they must've done a lot of retakes, because he's not showing that charisma now. I hate his finisher. It's like a crappy Diamond Cutter that looks too setup. Orton doesn't seem comfortably behind the mic or in the ring. Everything seems forced. I think him being a heel hides a lot of his weaknesses, and since his babyface run was aborted, I think that WWE should try their luck in turning him again.

 

TAZZ : As a commentator, I only really get to hear him when he's on dual PPV's since I can't get Smackdown locally. He wasn't bad, but it seemed like he was doing the play-by-play more than Michael Cole. I don't know if that's because Cole is bad or because Tazz doesn't know what a color man is supposed to do. In the ring, I marked out hard for Taz. At least in ECW. He seemed like a legit badass. Like he lived his gimmick. He was mad at the world, and didn't give a shit about what anyone thought. I loved the Tazmission as it reminded me of the old days when Ted DiBiase was beating cats with the Million Dollar Dream. Taz didn't have a lot of psychology in his matches, but he always drew me in with his charisma and attitude. C'mon, suplex, suplex, suplex, choke out doesn't make a lot of sense! Still, I wanted to see him suplex Bigelow through a table. I wanted to see him make The Franchise tap out. I liked Taz a lot back then. Now when I see Taz, I just think he's another missed opportunity. He was killed during The Alliance. I did mark out when "Stone Cold" told RVD to "Five Star that sonuva bitch" though.

 

JERICHO : I'm torn. I always have been. In WCW, Jericho cracked me up. He was hilarious. Everything that he did was gold. From Ralphus and the Jerichoholic Ninja, to getting lost on his way to the ring. The 1,004 moves was gold. "Armbar!" Going to the building (can't remember what building) to read the official NWA rule book to get matches overturned was comedy and a great way to get heat. I've never been on the Jericho bandwagon as far as matches go. He's always seemed average to me. He can talk and has charima, but when he's a babyface, he seems boring and clich?. I like him as a comedic heel. Especially when he writes his own shit. I saw a lot of his Japan and ECW work. Even then I didn't think his matches were great. He's more than capable of working good matches, but it has to involve a good wrestler on the other side of the ring. That's what seperates him from HBK and Benoit.

 

SHANE-O-MAC : Ugh. I hate his entrance, and I'm not too keen on him being an on-air character. At least when he comes out, since it's not too often nowadays, you know that something is going to happen. I don't like him wrestling on PPVs or TV shows because I think there's more deserving people, whom are actually wrestlers, that should be getting that time instead. His big bumps are always entertaining to watch, but I can understand why the wrestlers don't give him a lot of respect for them. Yeah, he takes big risks, but then he doesn't have to wrestle the next night like all the other boys do. He gets time to heal. I'm not the biggest Shane McMahon fan. It's sad that the most memorable thing I get from Shane is a couple of botched spots. When Angle tried to throw him through the glass and it didn't break. He just kept landing on his head. His big leaps of faith weren't all that impressive to me. Well, I guess they were since it was WWF TV...but I saw New Jack do that crap every month in ECW. I REALLY hated Shane when he stole the Van Terminator though.

 

INOKI : I can't really comment due to inexposure. I've never even seen the exhibition with Ali.

 

VADER : One of my all-time favorite wrestlers. Stiff as shit, but agile for his size. I love watching him powerbomb people. Just an all around badass mother-fucker. Hell, I used to mark the hell out just for his crappy helmet when it'd spit out some steam. HA HA!

 

ROAD WARRIORS : Definitely influencial. I always liked The Steiner Brothers and The Fabulous Freebirds more though. The Road Warriors did have a cool gimmick. I was a big fan of those shoulder pads. Their finisher was good too. Especially about fifteen years or so ago. People just didn't do shit like that back then. I wasn't a big fan of them in the ring. Just a lot of power moves and Hawk playing face in peril. Of course, Hawk playing the face in peril just meant that he got knocked down once or twice. They weren't the best of sellers. I should probably seek out some of their Japan work. I'm sure it might change my views on them at least a little bit. Their Legion of Doom run in WWF certainly wasn't anything to write home about.

 

TITO SANTANA : My biggest memories of him are always the things that Bobby "The Brain" Heenan would say while doing commentary during a Tito match. I marked out for the way he sold The Barbarian's top rope clothesline at Wrestlemania VI. He was a decent enough IC champion, back when he was using the figure-four leglock. I was never a big fan of Strike Force though. Tito was pretty much past being good by the time I got into wrestling. I've never went out of my way to aquire old Tito footage. I probably never will.

 

Jim Cornette : Well, since I can't watch OVW, I miss him. He's a great on-air character. Has a great mind for the business. I probably even like him more than Paul Heyman, just because I know that Heyman is a flaky person. Cornette will tell you how it is. Great talker. One of the best talkers actually. I wish WWE would use him in WWE as both a mind and an on-air character. He would have to be more beneficial to them in that capacity than by training hosses down in OVW.

 

If we're going to add more wrestlers to talk about, I'd be interesting in what people thought about Lance Storm, Nikita Koloff, Scott Norton & Bam Bam Bigelow.

 

EDIT: I actually replied to the original topic before reading all the replies. It appears as if I share a lot of sentiments of the other posters here. Especially Loss.

[Marty]

I like this idea, Loss. It is better than one wrestler at a time.

 

Randy Orton: I remember going to the Smackdown tapings on 3/19/2002 and watching Orton job to Tommy Dreamer in a dark match. Never in my wildest thoughts would I have thought that he would rise in the ranks as quickly as he did, considering how, yes, generic he was that night too. I think Orton was building something special, morphing from the RNN era to the Legend Killer cocky attitude, but his face turn was at the wrong time and, even worse, destroyed any killer instinct he had (as opposed to the completion of Batista's face turn on Monday). I'm not sure if he can recover, either. Hooking him up with a pretty over diva? Didn't they try that with Jeff Jarrett under desperate times?

 

Tazz: Tazz was booked in typical fashion for most WWF newcomers (like Jericho and the Radicalz): Become a threat to a star either at the top or one who's rising fast (in Tazz's case, Kurt Angle), and then have issues, even struggling ones, with a midcarder-for-life or two (in Tazz's case, Bossman and Buchanan). I don't know if Tazz could become as over as many people would expect him to be (I never thought he was as dimensional as the Benoits, Jerichos, and Guerreros of the world), but this type of booking hurt him, as well as the others I mentioned. I don't know if it wouldn't have mattered anyway, either, because he was going to need neck surgery anyway, meaning an end to his career eventually. So any "what ifs" are probably moot points at best.

 

Chris Jericho: When I sit back to just watch the shows (as I actually am able to), Jericho is (and still can be) one of my favourites. However, when I look deeper at the guy's career, it's clearly fallen apart, and I don't know if Jericho's even motivated anymore to pick up the pieces. He's faced the same booking as Tazz did, and whenever he's been booked competently (false title win, defending the IC title three times in one night, etc) it's been either due to a lack of main eventers there at the time or outside criticism of not booking the guy properly. I agree with Loss' comments about his recent work, in particular his mic work. Not coincidentally, his mic work has come across to me annoying whenever he fails to take his opponents seriously. The guy is definitely in the middle of a freefall.

 

Shane McMahon: It's been said how a lot of the so-called positives of the Attitude era have hurt the WWF in the long run, and Shane is a perfect example of that. His bumps have only led to higher expectations of other workers and not coincidentally, more injuries. Arguably, he may be a better choice than Vince and Stephanie to keep off TV. His in-ring work is mediocre and the stand-out stuff raises the high spot bar too high, and I question if he's as over as the other two McMahons I mentioned.

 

Antonio Inoki: I can't comment too much on Inoki, due to a lack of knowledge about him and Japan in general, but from what people have said, he's stardom in Japan can't be denied, and his lack of common sense in his recent bookings, well, also can't be denied.

 

Vader: One of the finest big men to ever step in the ring. I'd still lean towards Andre being the greatest, just because of his mainstream aura, but even today, Vader doesn't get the respect he probably deserves. He was arguably the best worker in the 1990s in the U.S. and his downward spiral in the WWF was criminal, considering the reactions he would still get in that company. A fantastic worker, one of the very best, though.

 

The Road Warriors: The Andre The Giant of tag teams. They weren't great workers, but their popularity was off the charts. Even as heels, they were still cheered incredibly. They hung on too long, and how they were booked in 1998 is sad to see, but they will always have a legacy.

 

Tito Santana: Had one of the finest careers a constant midcarder could have. Had a superb feud with Greg Valentine, was involved with the tag division at a couple of its better periods, and has been a well above-average worker.

 

Jim Cornette: Has an understanding of the business that few people do. He's still able to use some old techniques at their best and fullest potential in an effort to produce the best OVW product he can. As a manager, he stood out, but not enough to take away from the wrestlers he would manage. At the same time, he would only add heat to both him and his wrestlers with both his words and actions. A fantastic promo as well. Between him and Bobby Heenan, they're the best managers the business has seen.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I don't hate Randy Orton, but they guy is such a fucking goofball. The shitty tattoos, the lanky physique, the forced cockiness, the lame promos, the dumbfuck pose... this guy isn't a wrestler. I don't believe for one second this guy could kick another guys ass. And that's why his feud with Foley worked so well, because at least that can be played into a heel role. Everything about him in the top face role is and was wrong.

[Coffey]

I don't hate Randy Orton, but they guy is such a fucking goofball.  The shitty tattoos, the lanky physique, the forced cockiness, the lame promos, the dumbfuck pose... this guy isn't a wrestler.  I don't believe for one second this guy could kick another guys ass.  And that's why his feud with Foley worked so well, because at least that can be played into a heel role.  Everything about him in the top face role is and was wrong.

Yes! He's like the drunk guy at a frat party that tries to start shit with you. You ignore him because you know he's just a dumb fuck jock...but then he throws a punch. So, you have to beat the fuck out of him in his drunken stupor.

 

It doesn't work when he's a babyface. It's just like "how the hell could he beat HHH?" Everything about him just screams "I'm trying to fit in!" The body tats, etc. as you all listed. Then I think about his military record, and I just know he's a mo-mo.

[goodhelmet]

Randy Orton - I don't watch enough of the current product to really know much about Orton's current in-ring ability. What I have seen since his debut has been nothing special. He is a good-looking kid who has spotty ring ability and a lack of charisma. I simply see nothing about him that would scream superstar or main eventer. He was background scenery in the WM match last year. His hardcore match w/ Foley was entertaining for me but only because I love Foley so much. You could have put any other young gun in there who would be willing to get slammed into thumbtacks and the result would be the same.

 

Tazz - When I read about Taz, I thought this guy was supposed to be some kind of real-life shooter or billy badass. When I finally saw a Taz match, he was all of 5'2. After seeing him, I thought he surely must be a great wrestler if he gets so much hype. Then I saw him wrestle and didn't take him seriously after that. Shortly after he debuted, it became apparent he would be mid-card fodder after seeing him matched up against HHH. He never did anything in the ring that made me invest any emotion into him.

 

Chris Jericho - Greatest Jericho moment: Introducing the cruiserweight battle royal.

 

Shane McMahon - And to think... some people actually hope this guy would control the company someday. Steph-Shane-all the same shit.

 

Antonio Inoki - Inoki is a strange cat. Some of the worst wrestling moments I have ever seen are because of Inoki. Then there are some great matches from the 70s and 80s and the aforementioned Vader match. His hard-on for mixing shoot fighting with wrestling has hindered the New Japan product. Personally, watching Inoki is similar to watching Baba for me. I always seem engaged in the spectacle of watching him fight, even the worst matches.

 

Vader - *see Loss4Words comment above*

 

The Road Warriors - A part of me wanted them to succeed in the final run as LOD 2000. I guess I wasn't ready to give up on my youth when I makred for them like no other team.

 

Tito Santana - The only wrestling t-shirt I ever owned as a kid. I loved watching Tito. By the time he became the Matador, I had already stopped watching.

 

Jim Cornette - Go to the ROH website and by Secrets of the Ring w/ Jim Cornette NOW! Then pickup the shoot interview with Cornette and Bobby Heenan. Then find a bootlegger to grab the Cornette shoot done with RFVideo. Then see who has a copy of the SMW BAR-B-Q. Then watch and learn.

[Loss]

If we're going to add more wrestlers to talk about, I'd be interesting in what people thought about Lance Storm, Nikita Koloff, Scott Norton & Bam Bam Bigelow.

 

EDIT: I actually replied to the original topic before reading all the replies. It appears as if I share a lot of sentiments of the other posters here. Especially Loss.

I'm sorry I just now saw this. I will add all of them to the next batch of wrestlers. I'll start a thread this weekend if I have time, and if not, I'll do it Monday.

 

And yes, it's amazing how we disagree about everything at TSM and find a lot of common ground at NMB. Must be the navy blue color scheme.

 

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

Randy Orton: He's not that bad in the ring, but has nothing really attention grabbing in his repertoire. It also does not help that he has the gayest pose in wrestling today, and insists on busting it out every seven seconds. Does he not realise that looking like he is having a fit is part of the reason that he is dying as a babyface ?

Tazz: Was really good in his day, and could have great matches against the right opponent. Underrated on the mic.

Chris Jericho: A world of lost potential. Probably the single most misused and abused wrestler in WWE today.

Shane McMahon: If you want to impress the locker room, train in OVW for 3 years before 'wrestling' again, and wear proper attire.

Antonio Inoki: Out of his mind. And not in a good way. Inoki is in his own little world, and it has no relation to the real one.

Vader: The best big man in wrestling history, bar none. Could have great matches in just about any style, and could make any smaller wrestler look great.

The Road Warriors: The Goldberg's of tag team wrestling; when they were dominant and kicked the shit out of people, fans went nuts. Have them sell, and people don't really care.

Tito Santana: Far better than most give him credit for. A really solid worker, who could carry slugs to good matches.

Jim Cornette: The best manager ever, excellent on the mic, a great commentator, and has a nearly unparalleled mind for wrestling.