ROH iPPV

[Kronos]

Well, gee, who'd have thunk it? A nice little ROH iPPV show with some good stuff. And then the main event of Richards/O'Reilly vs Edwards/Cole even had some good aspects. For 15 or 20 min. But it went on and on and on and on after that.

 

Sucked away almost all the good will the show had given me towards ROH.

[Mad Dog]

RoH main events are always going to be too long.

[Dylan Waco]

Eh I'll drag my thoughts over from DVDVR and if we need a thread on the show it'll get split.

 

Well I actually watched the ippv.

 

Haas/Benjamin v. Titus/King was pretty bad. They eventually went with a story of working over Titus hurt leg but it took a while to get there and they seemed to be on different pages for a lot of this.

 

Michael Bennett v. Homicide was ok I guess. I like Bennett's act a lot, but then he does stuff like refer to NYC as a "poophole" and I really don't understand how he can be taken seriously. The fact that all the heat in the match was based around the champion of another company was bizarre too. The finish was kind of amusing though and Homicide's awful post-match promo was worth a laugh.

 

Segment with Kingston and Steen was fine and I actually have some hopes for a Chikara v. ROH feud even though I don't care much for either fed. Still The Colony coming out for the save as Steen attempted to piss on the Chikara title really didn't work. It just doesn't fit contextually to have a bunch of guys in ants suits who are now super serious about defending the honor of the wrestling business.

 

Red/TJP v. Elgin/Strong had some flubbed moments and some really bad looking strikes, but it also had it's fair share of cool shit and over all was a fun match. Elgin is a great base and TJP and Red are all about using dudes like him as a pummel horse. Finish looked really sick too.

 

Lethal v. Ciampa was actually the most sensible match from a structural perspective of anything on the show. I thought it was obvious they were going to a draw, but they made fairly good use of the time and it really didn't feel like over kill at any point which is really rare in an ROH match. Match was well segmented and the big apron bump as a re-set actually made sense. I also thought the finishing flurry was a cool way to go to a draw. Overall I thought it was a pretty good match.

 

Briscoes v. Young Bucks was shorter than I expected but fun while it lasted. Briscoes are really good at kicking peoples asses. I didn't think the FIP work here was particularly strong, but it was an attempt which was honestly more than I expected and some of the Young Bucks douchey offense was really entertaining. Again the finishing sequence looked good.

 

Kevin Steen v. Jimmy Jacobs was the best match of the night. I am up and down on Steen, but he's clearly over and is the guy who the company should be building around. Jacobs reverting to "Age of the Fall" era stuff was kind of campy in a way, but worked in the context of the match. Lots of lunatic bumps and I thought the pacing was fairly well done. There were instances where both guys could of and should have sold something longer, but it was a good enough out of control brawl. Visual of the spike in the turnbuckle was cool and Jacobs regretted his reversion after stabbing Steen was an interesting twist. Yet again the finish looked brutal.

 

Main event was horrendous. I actually had some hopes for it after the first few minutes which were decent enough and considerably better than I had feared. But man alive it got to the point where every fucking spot in the match was a mirror spot or some other such bullshit. The spot with O'reilly "accidentally" DDTing Richards while Cole hit his neckbreaker is one of the worst spots I've ever seen. Match just went on and on and on. I am not a Richards fan, but I think O'Reilly is about ten times worse. The only thing I didn't mind was Cole winning clean, but winning on a crossbody less than a minute after getting taken out by a tornado DDT through a table? WTF?

 

Over all it was a better show than I expected and not a total waste of time. Still the highlight package they showed during intermission really made you remember a time when ROH was a promotion where you were guaranteed at least one great match a show and this was a show with a few solid matches, but nothing that even approached that level.

 

Also the announcing is terrible

[Mad Dog]

O'Reilly seems to be a Richards wannabe. He does a million moves and can't make a single one of those moves mean anything within the context of a match.

[Kronos]

RoH main events are always going to be too long.

 

It's true. But here I am enjoying the show, more or less, and thinking maybe I will start paying attention to ROH again. And then along comes this main event.

 

And I am right back to not wanting to watch. Fool me twice, shame on me. Or whatever.

 

Still the highlight package they showed during intermission really made you remember a time when ROH was a promotion where you were guaranteed at least one great match a show and this was a show with a few solid matches, but nothing that even approached that level.

 

Also the announcing is terrible

I had to laugh at one of the highlights being a Roderick Strong singles match.

 

Nigel kept trying to make the point that he was just as important as some of the other guys in ROH's history. Kelly kept making the point that ROH is better than other companies. I got tired of both of them.

[Mad Dog]

My personal philosophy for most matches is you can do everything you need to do in 24 minutes. If you're going past 24 minutes, there needs to be a good reason for it.

[FLIK]

The spot with O'reilly "accidentally" DDTing Richards while Cole hit his neckbreaker is one of the worst spots I've ever seen.

Didn't watch the show but i've seen this spot a couple of times from a few ppl and yeah it's always dumb.

[Jingus]

Kelly kept making the point that ROH is better than other companies.

This has been depressingly common in ROH commentary since day one. They've always talked about how they're real serious really seriously real wrestling and bragging about how great they are. My thought process has always been: I've already paid money to buy your goddamn show! Stop doing this half-assed PR work and let your product speak for itself.

 

But that's just part of a bigger problem: ROH's announcing has traditionally been pretty lame. Sapolsky was never any damn good, and it sounds like Kelly isn't either. Prazak was probably the best they've had, but even he seemed muted and bland compared to his older work in IWA-MS where he displayed so much more personality.

 

I asked Prazak one time in 2005-ish why Gabe kept himself as the lead announcer for so long, when even Gabe had to know that he kinda sucked on the mic. Dave's answer was basically that Sapolsky could basically put over the angles and psychology exactly how he wanted, since he was the booker too. That's more of an excuse than an explanation, though, since you can easily just tell your lead announcers which points you want them to make. I never claimed to be Lance Russell on the mic, but even I would've done a better job in that chair than Gabe did. Some people just weren't born with the voice for this kind of thing, and Gabe's raspy monotone and nasal accent was simply never meant for a broadcasting career even if he had better instincts for the job.

[Kronos]

I gotta agree with all your comments, Jingus. It is indeed a longtime thing with ROH to claim it's better than everyone. One of my very first posts on this forum back in 2008 was about Danielson shitting on the idea that he would ever want to go to WWE because ROH is where it's at (at 6th Anniv Show, maybe). But it just felt desperate tonight, like they were really really really trying to put themselves over as the only true choice.

 

And from a technical standpoint, it doesn't help that on the last few shows, I couldn't even hear the commentary. The sound mix on GBH and FB were so off that the crowd noise overpowered the commentating. (It could just be my crappy TV speakers, but still.)

 

So then we're left with crappy commentary that you can't hear. I guess that's a benefit -- but it's very distracting because you know it IS there, just underneath where you can make it out.

 

Incidentally, I really liked Prazak on IWA:MS. And I thought heel Prazak was one of the few good things about ROH HD Net.

[Jingus]

And from a technical standpoint, it doesn't help that on the last few shows, I couldn't even hear the commentary. The sound mix on GBH and FB were so off that the crowd noise overpowered the commentating. (It could just be my crappy TV speakers, but still.)

I've repeatedly heard vague but consistent mention about how many production errors there are on ROH's live broadcasts. Can anyone elaborate on what exactly they are?

[Dylan Waco]

Well tonight they had replays where the full audio was playing as Kelly and Nigel were trying to recap which resulted in cross talk and confusion. Later they went to a video package to set up the Steen match and Steen's music hit and they missed most of his entrance for a video package that was inaudible as a result of Steen's music playing in the arena.

[Kronos]

And from a technical standpoint, it doesn't help that on the last few shows, I couldn't even hear the commentary. The sound mix on GBH and FB were so off that the crowd noise overpowered the commentating. (It could just be my crappy TV speakers, but still.)

I've repeatedly heard vague but consistent mention about how many production errors there are on ROH's live broadcasts. Can anyone elaborate on what exactly they are?

 

 

Well, the commentary sound issue was much better tonight. But one sloppy aspect was that whenever they would go to an extended replay or -- worse -- a feud video, they wouldn't shut off the house noise. So you get the intros and the music of the wrestlers drowning out the sound on the recap vid being shown to introduce the feud.

 

 

 

BTW, to say something more positive: I really enjoyed watching the show with my iPhone in hand, live tweeting. I so rarely watch shows live that I forget how much fun it is to share that way. I did it last year during Mania, during the premiere ep of "Pan Am", and I am not sure when else. It helps to feel connected to other viewers when it's just you at home.

[anarchistxx]

The lack of star power in ROH now compared to 2003-2006 is stunning. A lack of exciting/interesting talent as well. Back then there were a ton of guys who even if they divided opinions seemed like big names in the context of the scene they were in. Maybe I'm out the loop, but the only people I'd be interested in seeing off thos card are The Briscoes (because they're a brilliant promo, fun gimmick and a 'real' tag team not just two guys thrown together) and the Young Bucks (I'm sure they get a lot of stick for being flippy floppy spot monkeys but I've found them really innovative and exciting everytime I've come across them).

 

I turned on Ring of Honor in 2006/2007 or so, as I couldn't stand how every match on the show was worked like an epic main event, with schmucks like charisma vacuums like BJ Whitmer busting out crazy headrops with a million near falls in the second match on the show. After an hour of it you become desensitized and it really ruins any chance of the big main event matches meaning something.

[FLIK]

This has been depressingly common in ROH commentary since day one. They've always talked about how they're real serious really seriously real wrestling and bragging about how great they are.

I gotta agree with all your comments, Jingus. It is indeed a longtime thing with ROH to claim it's better than everyone. One of my very first posts on this forum back in 2008 was about Danielson shitting on the idea that he would ever want to go to WWE because ROH is where it's at

Well, ROH was founded by a bunch of ECW cronies and they were all about the same kind of us vs them mentality so thear you go. And hey, it did work for a time so I won't knock it.

 

The lack of star power in ROH now compared to 2003-2006 is stunning. A lack of exciting/interesting talent as well. Back then there were a ton of guys who even if they divided opinions seemed like big names in the context of the scene they were in.

ROH is a victim of it's own success.

 

In the days of pre ROH indy wrestling, hardcore fans were much more likely to buy tapes from & follow a # of diffrent promotions but really it was only for a small handful of guys on each show. Like everyone would buzz about Dragon/Low Ki stuff on an ECWA show but no one really gave a fuck about Abunai, Japanese Pool Boy & The Cheeta Master.

 

Then ROH started up with the idea of cherry picking all the best guys from the various indies ppl were buying tapes to see to create a super fed and little by little other indies started getting less & less atention from fans so there became less & less guys getting enough buzz to make ROH want to bring them in.

 

Flash forward 10 years later most of ROH's bigger names have gone on to WWE or TNA & they no longer bring in talent from Japan so now all they're left with is a handfull of core guys & the "let's make every show blow away great so ppl will buy the DVDs" business model isn't working anymore for various reasons.

 

Now the company is stuck in this weird place whear the fans still want the super high quality action they've had in the past and ROH still sorta wants to cater to that crowd while at the same time trying to de-evolve from being a super indy and trying to build a tv product to appeal to a broader audiance. ROH only has a few high quality guys on the roster, no longer wants everyone on the card to try and put on great matches anyways and if you don't like who they do push on top like Davey & Edwards you're a bit SOL as the rest of the shows are now filled out with lesser talent, local guys & whoever Cornette can scrounge up from OVW.

[Coffey]

The lack of star power in ROH now compared to 2003-2006 is stunning.

I actually made this comment elsewhere but I stand by it: Maria is the biggest star in Ring of Honor and it's not because she used to be in WWE. She just looks like a star. Maria, to me, is not the type of person that you just run into at Wal-Mart. Can you say that about a single other guy on the roster? Kevin Steen is probably the best active wrestler they have and he's just a fat dude with a bad haircut. As much flak as WWE takes, at least their guys, or some of them anyway, look like people you should spend money to see.

 

Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards are the definition of what is wrong with professional wrestling today. Those should be curtain jerk jobbers, not 40-minute main eventers all trying to get their shit in and forget to sell, have any emotion, story or heat.

 

I remember the argument against Paul Heyman being a genius when he used to book ECW and I was reminded of that last night during the Pay-Per-View. Doing a DDT through a table and then ending the match with a Crossbody doesn't make you smart.

 

the Young Bucks (I'm sure they get a lot of stick for being flippy floppy spot monkeys but I've found them really innovative and exciting everytime I've come across them).

You better damn sure be a big-ass fan of Superkicks. I mean the biggest Superkick mark on the planet. Because you're literally getting at least seven in every single Young Bucks match.

[anarchistxx]

remember the argument against Paul Heyman being a genius when he used to book ECW and I was reminded of that last night during the Pay-Per-View. Doing a DDT through a table and then ending the match with a Crossbody doesn't make you smart.

The thing Heyman had going for him is that almost all of his wrestlers were colourful and with an identifiable gimmick. The wrestling style of ECW is clearly polarising, but the angles and characters made the promotion interesting. ROH doesn't have any of that, it's almost entirely made of landfill indie guys without charisma. Even the ring attire is so boring, hardly anyone can cut a promo, the storylines are featureless and by the book most of the time. So it relies entirely on the wrestling aspect to suck in the viewer, whereas ECW could appeal on a few levels.

 

You better damn sure be a big-ass fan of Superkicks. I mean the biggest Superkick mark on the planet. Because you're literally getting at least seven in every single Young Bucks match.

To be fair, I only ever watch their matches at a friend's house. He's a massive PWG nut. You tend to overlook the no selling and overuse of nearfalls if you're also socialising during the match, and just dig the cool moves and counters and innovative spots.

 

I actually think the Bucks could make it quite big in WWE if they toned down their spots and were able to work within confinements. They;re relatively charismatic, and have a kind of Hardy Boyz vibe to them where girls will dig their looks and the guys will love the risk taking and impressive movesets. It's refreshing to me to see two teams like them and the Briscoes who are known predominantly as tag team wrestlers and have a ton of tandem offence etc, far more interesting than the trend these days towards throwing unconnected guys together and seeing if it sticks.

 

If I was WWE I'd be reinventing a lot of these ex-main event guys into tag teams and rebuilding a division where teams stay together for a while and build a dynamic. I get the feeling dudes like Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler, Drew McIntyre, Del Rio, Wade Barrett and others would be much better in tag teams with a manager, they simply don't have the star power or uniqueness to make it as main event singles wrestlers, and there's no real midcard division anymore that you can hang around in for years.

 

You don't seem to get guys like Greg Valentine or IRS anymore, solid hands who never have a shot at the world title but are content being in the middle of the card for years. These days people come in, get a big push, challenge for or win the World Title, lose it swiftly then are booked terribly to the point where they can't recover.

[Coffey]

The thing Heyman had going for him is that almost all of his wrestlers were colorful and with an identifiable gimmick. The wrestling style of ECW is clearly polarizing, but the angles and characters made the promotion interesting. ROH doesn't have any of that, it's almost entirely made of landfill indie guys without charisma. Even the ring attire is so boring, hardly anyone can cut a promo, the storylines are featureless and by the book most of the time. So it relies entirely on the wrestling aspect to suck in the viewer, whereas ECW could appeal on a few levels.

Oh, absolutely. I like Paul Heyman, actually. I was a big fan of ECW. I thought he was great at hiding weaknesses and exploiting strengths. It just popped into my head when the main event finished last night.

 

Those ECW matches had heat and emotion too. Say what you want about the ECW mutants in the crowd but at least they cared. If ROH is trying to draw in fans based on ring work alone they're doing things drastically wrong because I would say that the ring work right now is one of the biggest hindrances to the company as a whole. It's a bunch of guys trying to one-up one another by seeing who can do the most ridiculous shit. The last PPV had a top rope Superplex onto a guard rail for a damn 2-count!

[Kronos]

The thing Heyman had going for him is that almost all of his wrestlers were colourful and with an identifiable gimmick.

That's why I am drawn to a guy like Bennett. Yes, his ringwork needs improving. But he has a decent look compared to most of his colleagues. And more importantly, he has a character. That needs work, too. I was thinking last night that the difference between Bennett and Punk -- when the crowd brought it up -- was that Punk would have owned that crowd. Bennett just looked like an idiot.

 

But he has something there, and it could be built up with training in FCW. Most of the other guys don't have it. One of the themes in this thread is that they have lost their stars, and it's true. They've built their belt around people like Richards, Strong, and Edwards because they have no one else.

 

 

Re: CHIKARA. I liked that whole Steen/Kingston segment. Two fat, ugly dudes generating massive heat and crowd interest.

[FLIK]

Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards are the definition of what is wrong with professional wrestling today. Those should be curtain jerk jobbers, not 40-minute main eventers all trying to get their shit in and forget to sell, have any emotion, story or heat.

Meh, i'm not a fan either but they have their audiance and Davey & his crew are still liked by a fair # of ppl. The bigger issue is that for those who don't like that style there just isn't a ton of other stuff going on in ROH to appeal to most others.

[Kronos]

Meh, i'm not a fan either but they have their audiance and Davey & his crew are still liked by a fair # of ppl. The bigger issue is that for those who don't like that style there just isn't a ton of other stuff going on in ROH to appeal to most others.

During one segment of Edwards/O'Reilly grappling on the mat, I was thinking that they all might do some interesting work in short-ish shoot style matches. If they could focus on strikes and kicks and matwork, there could be something there. Hell, you don't even have to 100% lose the prowres bits. The FUTEN guys have put on some fun stuff with a mix, but they lean heavily on shoot-style.

 

Unfortunately, the ROH crowds don't want it. Or they have been trained to think that the BIG MOOVEZ with the headcrushings and falling off top ropes and the like are what's needed. And maybe NO ONE wants it, or BattlArts would still be alive. Maybe the attitude is, "If I'm going to watch fake grappling, I might as well watch the real thing and go MMA." That's the difficulty Davey and pals have created for themselves. The more you go that direction, the more it makes sense to just watch MMA instead. And so they have to include the silly big moves, to differentiate from true shoot-style. And then they lose the effect of both.

[rovert]

This picture for the next show:

 

 

Human cloning or x rated video?:

[Bix]

This picture for the next show:

 

 

Human cloning or x rated video?:

[Guest Paul Kersey]

Davey Richards= Billy Herrington with more flips & less selling.

[Mad Dog]

I literally can't tell who is who in that poster. I can only tell who Richards is because he has the belt.

[Coffey]

I literally can't tell who is who in that poster. I can only tell who Richards is because he has the belt.

From left to right it is Roderick Strong, Davey Richards & Eddie Edwards. They do all look generic as fuck though.

 

Night One - Friday March 30th at 8pm

 

ROH World Title

Davey Richards vs. Eddie Edwards vs. Roderick Strong

 

The Icon vs. The Prodigy

Lance Storm vs. Mike Bennett

 

Proving Ground Match

The Briscoes vs. Team MDK (Shane Haste & Mikey Nicolls)

 

Miami Street Fight

The Young Bucks vs. The All Night Express

 

Other talent include Kevin Steen, Michael Elgin, Jay Lethal, TJ Perkins, The New Combination, Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team, Kyle O'Reilly, Adam Cole, talent from Chikara and more.

 

Night Two - Saturday March 31 at 2pm

 

ROH World Tag Team Titles

The Briscoes vs. Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team

 

Tornado Tag Rules

The Young Bucks vs. The All Night Express

 

Other talent include Kevin Steen, The House Of Truth, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Jay Lethal, TJ Perkins, The New Combination, Kyle O'Reilly, Adam Cole, talent from Chikara and more.

 

Pretty sure Night 1 is the same day as the $2 Dragon Gate USA show with Low-Ki Vs. PAC in the main event though.