rzombie1988 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I'm not judging her career on that but my point stands that she really wasn't anything special until her last 2-3 years. When you compare her with the other AJW girls at the time, it's not happening. I would not have Kudo above most of those girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Kudo is a neat story the way she went from a kindergarten worker to one of the bigger draws in women's wrestling, but she wasn't any better than the midcard talent AJW had in the 70s, 80s and 90s. If she'd wound up in LLPW no one would talk about her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Compare her with her 1986 Zenjo classmates - Aja, KAORU, Bison, Combat, Mika Takahashi and Cooga. I'd put her above Cooga but thats not saying much. Way above Cooga, above Takahashi (I like her), way above KAORU (who's not above KAORU anyway ?), above Combat, and although I'm a big fan, above Bison. Compare her with the 1987 class - Toyota, Yamada, Mita, Shimoda and Sachiko Nakamura. She would be 2nd from the bottom of that list as well. Watch the DS 1 match with Kudo/Toyoda vs Toyota/Yamada and you can see how vastly inferior she was to Toyota and Yamada. Peak vs peak with Toyota, it's arguable who is the better one. Yamada has been way overrated for ever. I love Shimoda but I think Kudo at her peak was better. I haven't watch peaking Toyota for years, but she would be the only one I would argue was better than peak Kudo. Compare her with the 1988 class - Kyoko, Takako, Yoshida. Takako would be the only one I'd go either way with at this stage of the game. Kyoko and Yoshida at their peak were better. She was better than Takako (who I like more than most). Kudo would be high on my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Remember, I'm comparing these girls with Kudo from that time period. I think Yamada is often overlooked but I'll definitely admit that she never acheived her full potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 When I got into joshi back in 1998, Yamada was hugely pimped as a great worker until 1995. I don't think she's been overlooked at all. It was when I went through 1992 & 1993 that she appeared overrated to me. Still very good to excellent at that time, but not great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 This is the match list for Dean Rasmussen's old joshi addiction comp which had the same aim: KAORU vs Combat Toyota- GAEA 2/16/96: This was during the first big angle in GAEA- where FMW and GAEA are at odds and fabulous Memphis-style invasion mayhem ensues. Combat is a lost good worker of the 90s and KAORU is wearing that Silver and Leopard print outfit you love so much and she rocks the world- bumping like a freak for Combat's Offense O' Danger and selling the knee like a champ. Yumiko Hotta/ Manami Toyota/ Sakie Hasegawa vs. Mayumi Ozaki/ Plum Mariko/ Hikari Fukuoka- ALL JAPAN WOMEN 8/25/93: One of the great forgotten Joshi matches during the AJW vs JWP heyday. The late Plum Mariko and Sakie Hasegawa- the budding star whose career was cut short by back injury- are in this and show the depth of the rosters back in the day, since they are lowmen on the totem pole at the time but could still go with anyone in the world. Plum goes at it fullbore with a meth-amphetamine-level workrate of circa 93 Manami, takes the beating Hotta can dish and then takes the longest Locomotion Suplex from the fabulous Sakie Hasegawa. The nearfalls are molten, the workrate in astronomical and highspots are thoroughly queensized. All this plus a BARELY LEGAL OZ!!! Hikari Fukuoka/KAORU vs Chikayo Nagashima/Toshie Uematsu- GAEA 3/8/96: KAORU and Hikari Fukuoka were a fun tagteam that should have stayed together and did something. They did beat the life out of the then rookies Toshie Uematsu and Chakayo Nagashima. The finish is suitably gnarley. Yumiko Hotta/ Kyoko Inoue/ Takako Inoue vs. Cutie Suzuki/ Plum Mariko/ The Bolshoi Kid- AJW DREAMSLAM 2- 4/11/93: It's all fun and games until Hotta starts punting the clown. Possibly my favorite match ever involving Kyoko Inoue. Sugar Sato/ Chikayo Nagashima vs Sonoko Kato/ Toshie Uematsu- GAEA 9/16/96: My favorite tagteam- Sato and Nagashima- have their first really good match. Toshie Uematsu and Sonoko Kato brawl like motherfuckers in this fabulous, primordial, brand new-OZ Academy vs GAEA Young Punkin ass-stomp. All four RULE it in this. Jaguar Yokota vs Peggy Lee- ALL JAPAN WOMEN I'm assuming 1982ish: WOW's THUG when she was young(er) hangs with the best wrestler in Joshi history , just by being the fabulous old school redneck heel trhat God made her to be- whipping up on Jaguar, bumping really well and being an all round hateful little queenie. Her boots MOTHERFUCKING RULE. Jaguar REALLY MOTHERFUCKING RULES in this what with her "light years ahead of its time" moves and execution. Megumi Kudo vs Mayumi Ozaki (Barbed Wire Match) FMW 4/18/97: Most footage I've ever been able to find of the fabulous deathmatch between Kudo and the QUEEN of the Deathmatch, Mayumi Ozaki. OZ looks so fucking hot when she is dressed to perform the Death Match. The ripped jeans, the Navy Seals t-short- RoRRROwwwwRR! Sonoko Kato vs Meiko Satomura- GAEA 5/12/96: Finals of a rookie tournament and the first time you say, "WHOA! Who is the Meiko Satomura?" Tomoko Kozumi vs Kanako Motoya (JWP Jr Title) - JWP 5/97: Kozumi is now Azumi Hyuga and Motoya is now Kana Mizaki of JWP. This match is so good that it gets you depressed when you think that it wasn't long before these two fell off the face of the earth in the turmoil and slow death of JWP- as opposed to having the high profile matches that matches like these would lead you to believe they could have had by now. Meiko Satomura/ Sonoko Kato vs Tomoko Miyaguchi (now YuYu Ran)/ Saya Endo- Junior All-Star Show 8/2/97: This is a big fat batch of fun fun fun! I wish they would bring back the Junior All Star shows because you would get cool little interpromotional matches like this. God, add Miyaguchi to the "career fucked by the decline and death of JWP" heap. She ABSOLUTELY rocks in this- as she and Meiko trying to see who can being the biggest bitch in the match. Meiko is already spectacular at this point and I really love this match. Manami Toyota vs. Aja Kong- AJW BIG EGG WRESTLING UNIVERSE 11/20/94: Aja reels in the excessive tendencies and psychological shortcomings of Manami, thus allowing her to freak out all she wants with the high spots and BOY! does she. Manami takes a QUEEN-SIZED beating on the way (Ohhh, it's BIG! Manami is tough as motherfucking nails in this). Aja rocks like a hurricane- being the best monster heel that ever wrestled but taking it to the nth power in this match. 2/3 Falls: Jaguar Yokoto/ Noriyo Tateno vs. Dump Matsumoto/ Crane Yu- 1984ish: Dump hadn't gone completely crazy yet so the entrance isn't like it would be two years from this point (in that she hadn't drawn a swastika on her forehead and assaulted everyone at the annoucers table. She did have the rad Nancy Spungeon punk rock bob hairstyle going at this point.) Jaguarrules like Jaguar will rule and Noriyo rocks the Mrs Brady coiffe that all the moms were sporting at the time. Dump starts stabbing early. Megumi Kudoh/ Combat Toyota vs Manami Toyota/ Toshiyo Yamada- FMW 5/5/93: FMW used to have a rockin' little Women's division with fun angles and cool interpromotional matches. Here, the really really great tgteam of Toyota and Yamada take on the AJW ex-patriates with fabulous results. Megumi Kudo was so cool looking so hot while punching folks in the face. And this match was before Yamada ruined her knees and back and became the Masa Chono of Joshi. Combat is solid as ever. Toyota hits the greatest dropkick in the history of wrestling on Combat about four minutes in. Yuko Kosugi/Jaguar Yokota vs Sumie Sakai/ Megumi Yabushita- Jd'- 4/26/98 : The greatest man to ever walk the face of the earth- GLENN TSUNEKAWA- hipped me to the greatness of Jd'. Kosugi was a real up-and-comer who retired shortly after starting to show some real zest. Yabushita and Sakai came in together after achieving status as legit Judo girls- so they suplex like motherfuckers. Here they are after they just came in and the godlike Jaguar carries EVERYBODY- but you can see the spark that makes Jaguar trainees so good. Sakie and Yabushita are already busting out the cool submissions even at this early stage in their careers. Debbie Malenko vs. Terry Powers- 2/28/93 ALL JAPAN WOMEN: GODDAMN! I didn't even know I HAD this match on tape but I was scouring Quebrada Mike's Tapelist to see if it would give me any ideas for this comp and I said "HEY! I have that tape! I haven't watched it yet! JUMPING HOLY CRAP! IT'sGOT FRICKIN DEBBIE MALENKO ON IT!" Debbie Malenko is mysterious and legendary because her career was so short and taped accounts of her matches are scarce- making her sorta like a distaff grappler James Dean. Here she is against the woman who would become WWF's Ivory and it's a damn good match and it's for the All Japan title and everything. Terry Powers speaks of getting trained by Brad Rheingans. Debbie Malenko RULED he fricking WORLD. Post-match Debbie speaks some Japanese for her Peeps. Mmmmm.... Malennnkoooo........ Marine Wolves vs The Crush Gals- 2/3 falls for the WWWA Tag Titles- All Japan Women-4/27/89: The Crush Gals are Chigusa Nagayo and Lioness Aska. The Marine Wolves is a 22 year old Akira Hokuto and the mysterious Suzuka Minami- who I've only seen a few times. Chigusa and the divine Lioness assume the role of elder ass-stompers with real panache- walking to the ring sullen and angry. The Marine Wolves are irrepressible scamps who torment their elders. Chigusa was still agile and nifty and Lioness is just FUCKING AWESOME in this. Notice how the psychology and the story of the match is so unlike the stuff from 92-97 AJW- as the match is based on Old School psychology of Lioness and Chigusa trying to rip Akira' arm out of the socket like Estrogen Anderson Brothers. Watching this, you'll see where Chigusa wanted the style of GAEA to develop from the start. Aja Kong & Bull Nakano vs. Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori- AJW WRESTLING QUEENDOM 3/27/94: This match is fucking GREAT- Hokuto and Kandori legit hate each other's guts and they get wrangled into this Pareja Increíbles. Bull Nakano was a truly great wrestler and is great in this match bumping GIGANTIC for Hokuto's fucking NASTY dangerous offense; Aja is at her stiff-as-fuck, ass-beating zenith- thus it all balances out the endless fun of Akira and Shinobu hating each other's stinking guts but still having to tag each other. In glorious Windowbox Format to truly make the "AWWWW fuck you! I hate you!" tags even more fun. Aja vs Kandori is MAGIC, DADDY! Jumping Bomb Angels vs. Devil Masami/ Yukari Omori- AJW 12/86: The Jumping Bomb Angels- Noriyo Tateno and Itsuki Yamazaki - and Mimi Hagiwara were the forerunners of the hyperworkrate style to overtake Joshi by the early 90s. Omori is the demented Joan Crawford of 80s AJW and she is big and hateful in this. Devil is all younger (only 24!) and spritely in this as she hangs with the highflying Angels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I recently watched Shinobu Kandori's WWWA title defense against Manami Toyota and was shocked at how much I enjoyed it. I'd even go so far as to say that Kandori is the unsung heroine of 90s joshi. She brings an aura of violence and legitimacy to her matches the same way Brock did at Extreme Rules, albeit on a much smaller scale. I'd always taken it as an article of faith that Akira Hokuto brought Kandori up to her level in the Dreamslam match. But as I see more of each of their work, I'm increasingly convinced that Kandori was the main driver of that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Kandori was a better worker than she was given credit for in the rspw days, but there's no way she was the main driver of that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Well, I think that Kandori could have had a match like the one at Dreamslam with a number of wrestlers (from an in-ring standpoint, not storyline-wise). But Hokuto couldn't have had that match with anyone but Kandori. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I recently watched Shinobu Kandori's WWWA title defense against Manami Toyota and was shocked at how much I enjoyed it. I'd even go so far as to say that Kandori is the unsung heroine of 90s joshi. She brings an aura of violence and legitimacy to her matches the same way Brock did at Extreme Rules, albeit on a much smaller scale. I'd always taken it as an article of faith that Akira Hokuto brought Kandori up to her level in the Dreamslam match. But as I see more of each of their work, I'm increasingly convinced that Kandori was the main driver of that match.Finally, people are seeing the light. I've seen more Kandori than most people and I find her really underappreciated and underrated. I loved the Toyota match(I gave it 4.5-4.75*), I liked the Hotta match and the tag leading up to it, loved DS, loved her tag against Yamada at Big Egg, liked her early LLPW match with Tatento, the Bull match(and the lead up tag to it) and I liked her series with Kudo. As you said, she brings the fire and legitimacy and she knows when to turn it on. Kandori just suffers alot from never jobbing in LLPW and from being in LLPW. On a side note, she is also a pretty cool lady. Not as scary as Chigusa though! *Still holding out hope for Aja/Kandori match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Kandori just suffers alot from never jobbing in LLPW and from being in LLPW. Latter especially. Early LLPW & Early JD are really the black sheeps of joshi. Lots of great stuff to be found but very few (myself included) ever take the time to explore it deeply. *EDIT* There's tons of great Kandori matches one could bring up but just real quick i'll give a special mention to the matches vs Devil & vs Kansai in 80's JWP just as an example that she'd allready been really good for years before the Hokuto match which is usually the earliest one ppl talk about among her work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 The only other matches Kandori had on the level of the Hokuto one were against Devil and Bull, two workers with strong personalities in their own right. Kandori was a good foil because she was seen as legit and had shot on Jackie Sato and we all know how Japanese pro-wrestling loves shooter/wrestler angles. Put Kandori in the driver's seat, however, and it wouldn't have worked. Hokuto brought all the heat. That Dream Slam match is 100% about Hokuto. The arc in that match is incredible, probably bigger than any story arc in pro-wrestling history. Kandori plays her part in destroying Hokuto, but it's really Hokuto's promos that tell the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Kandori just suffers alot from never jobbing in LLPW and from being in LLPW. Latter especially. Early LLPW & Early JD are really the black sheeps of joshi. Lots of great stuff to be found but very few (myself included) ever take the time to explore it deeply. *EDIT* There's tons of great Kandori matches one could bring up but just real quick i'll give a special mention to the matches vs Devil & vs Kansai in 80's JWP just as an example that she'd allready been really good for years before the Hokuto match which is usually the earliest one ppl talk about among her work. I'm all about Yuko Kosugi, who made an appearance within the last week. Looks younger than she did when she actually was younger. Toyota vs Kandori is totally on level. Had Toyota not botched a few moves, it would have been 5 stars. The Sato shoot was really petty. She ought to be embarassed about it. Hokuto wouldn't have as much heat without Kandori. Kazama vs Hokuto shows that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Well, even though Kazama owned LLPW she wasn't seen as its top star. The Hokuto/Kazama feud would've been like Kandori challenging Takako or Cutie to a fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'm all about Yuko Kosugi, who made an appearance within the last week. Looks younger than she did when she actually was younger. Made an appearance ? Where ? I was a huge Bloody fan. One of my all time favourite worker. I really enjoyed Kusogi too, she really could have become something special as a worker I think if she didn't retired so soon. Loved Yabushita & Sakai too, especially Yabushita. Jd' is the great lost promotion. Hokuto wouldn't have as much heat without Kandori. Kazama vs Hokuto shows that. What Dan said. Kazama just wasn't a big star at the level of Hokuto or Kandori. She pushed herself a bit too much at times because she was Da Mistress of LLPW. The fact that Hokuto carried her to her best match ever says a lot about Hokuto at that point, because Kuzama wasn't a very good worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 Maybe this thread is playing into perception that everyone in Joshi wrestles exactly like Manami Toyota, but that's the exact myth we're attempting to dispel. I've been watching a lot of joshi lately, and I'm increasingly puzzled by the notion that Toyota was that much of an outlier. Granted, she was on the extreme end with the sprintiness, and her execution was sloppier than most. But to me, things like lousy transitions and no regard for long-term selling are far bigger problems, and those were pretty universal among her peers. Personally, I'd rather watch Toyota go-go-go than Kyoko Inoue's dazzling array of camel clutches and surfboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 Toyota wasn't an outlier. She was the one that the majority of the other workers wanted to be like. Her style wasn't that unique, either. Dating back to the 70s there are workers who wrestle a go-go-go style. There was a period where the workers were influenced by Jaguar Yokota and Chigusa Nagayo, but for the most part go-go-go has always been the trademark of Japanese women's wrestling and only workers with different builds or slightly different strengths deviated from that path. The key is the rhythm. If you can't get into the rhythm of Joshi puroresu then it's not very enjoyable. You have to watch a whole bunch of it to get a proper feel for it. Kyoko Inoue was a super pro-wrestler. The camel clutches and surfboards were part of the rhythm of Joshi matches and I doubt they bother anybody who's really into Joshi like FLIK or MJH. Long term selling I think is a bulllshit concept and should be an obsolete criticism. Why should there be long term selling? It's lazy psychology. You can hobble around on a bad wheel in a big match every once and a while, but to do it every match is asinine. You got stretched out for a bit, it hurt, but you don't need to go around limping for the rest of the match. That's boring. The transitions either work or don't work depending on whether you're into the rhythm I guess. I mean when the partners start saving each other ad nauseum and they've called each other kono yaro for the millionth time it really depends whether you're into it rather than it being structurally sound. My problem in the matches I've tried to watch recently is that they're too dense, but Japanese wrestling is like that. It's full of overkill. The 90s was just this fat, bloated era where they overdid everything and cashed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I was in the middle of a long reply a while back, but I got bored in the middle of it. I'll just post the truncated one. I was under the impression that Jaguar was one of the main drivers of the style becoming more fast-paced and athletic. And I would say that completely blowing off targeted body part work is both lazier and less compelling from a dramatic standpoint. Why even bother going after a body part if it isn't going to go anywhere or lead to anything? And it's not just limb work, comebacks in general are too easy. When someone gets worked over for ten minutes and then reverses an Irish whip and becomes a house of fire, it's difficult for me to get invested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 They're not getting a body part worked over; they're just getting stretched. It happens in every Joshi match. The submission sections are as predictable as the outside brawling, the nearfalls, the reversals, the saves or any other component of the matches. It's something they do in the first third of the match. Sometimes it's sold well, but often it's crap. The same is true of every other wrestling formula. I don't know what type of wrestling you like, but I bet we could pick it apart. Working a body part is a storyline in some Joshi matches, but not all Joshi matches. Submissions are a part of practically every Joshi match but not a storyline. Why do it? Because that's the way their working style developed over time? It's not something I really care for, but selling a body part all the time is the opposite extreme. The emphasis in Joshi is that after the matches they're always buggered. Regardless of what was sold during the match, they always put over how fucked they are after a match. That's what you're supposed to take away from it. Jaguar didn't make it faster. She may have made it more athletic, but more so in the context of her moveset. But she actually wasn't alone in doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 They're not getting a body part worked over; they're just getting stretched. It happens in every Joshi match. The submission sections are as predictable as the outside brawling, the nearfalls, the reversals, the saves or any other component of the matches. It's something they do in the first third of the match. Sometimes it's sold well, but often it's crap. The same is true of every other wrestling formula. I don't know what type of wrestling you like, but I bet we could pick it apart. I like mainly 90s All Japan and mid-90s WWF (mostly Bret Hart), but I'm not blind to their faults by any means. I've heard the various criticisms of King's Road, and I'm in basic agreement with most of them. They just don't bother me all that much in practice. Wrestling is entertainment, not a math equation. Just as different people are entertained by different things, different people are bothered by different things. Working a body part is a storyline in some Joshi matches, but not all Joshi matches. Submissions are a part of practically every Joshi match but not a storyline. Why do it? Because that's the way their working style developed over time? It's not something I really care for, but selling a body part all the time is the opposite extreme. I suppose that's true in theory, but I can't think of a single match that was actually hurt by too much body part selling. The emphasis in Joshi is that after the matches they're always buggered. Regardless of what was sold during the match, they always put over how fucked they are after a match. That's what you're supposed to take away from it. See, this is useful context. It's not ideal, but it's something. It may sound like I'm down on joshi, but I'm really not. There are plenty of joshi matches that I like a lot. I think it's easier for me to outline what I don't like than what I do. Beyond that, I enjoy breaking things down as much as possible to figure out what I like and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I'm not trying to defend Joshi. It's something I watched a lot of at one time, but I can barely stand it myself these days. I guess the point I've been trying to make is that you can't expect it to be something that it's not. You're not going to turn on a match and see some kind of Toshiaki Kawada selling performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Not really Joshi, but thought I'd post these here. Blame Loss. He said I could. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TGXE8Y63Dk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw7_7_Cq5aU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TGXE8Y63Dk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw7_7_Cq5aU What. The FUCK. Was that?! Is all Japanese television just a nonsensical cacophony of bright colors and people constantly shrieking? I think every scrap of live action TV I've seen from that country (barring sports) all looks like something aimed at very young children. Do they have an equivalent to HBO dramas over there? It's weird that their TV is so goofy, considering how dark and squicky their movies often are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Looks like a comedy sketch from a variety show. Japanese TV dramas have low budgets. Even the serious ones are cheap looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Birth of OZ Academy highlight package, one of my favorite joshi angles/feuds of all time. Your female equivilent of the 4 Horsemen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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