The Beginner's Guide To British Wrestling

[David Mantell]

On 8/1/2023 at 10:03 AM, David Mantell said:

"Skill and speed is what they (the public) really like" - Kent Walton (during Saint vs Faulkner 1981 IIRC)

On 8/1/2023 at 11:14 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

That may have been what Walton liked, or at least what the persona he presented to the public liked, and it's generally what I like too, but it's stretch to say it's what the public wanted. The majority of the audience were into the characters and were there to cheer the blue eyes and boo the heels. Walton was an interesting guy. He could be fairly forthright with his opinions at times and wasn't shy about sharing his views on a wrestler or match. Some of the boys didn't particularly like him and would rib him by feeding him false stories to share on air like that lie about Ivan Penzekoff being a pig farmer. There are times when Kent had to BS about why the fans weren't responding to match he thought was technically excellent, and of course, he had to shill the main events.

On 8/1/2023 at 12:26 PM, David Mantell said:

It's what at least some of the public wanted and what many others sort of swallowed - the idea that they were better, more cultured people for being able to get into this more highbrow sort of wrestling.  Also legitimate Lancashire wrestling was still a big folk sport in the 50s/60s and there was a crossover element between fans of that and the more purist element of the Pro wrestling fans. 

Have just been put in mind of Jim Cornette saying how old time fans would protect the business so as to force the promoters' hands to also take it seriously and continue to provide them with good quality matches.  I expect there was an element of this at work with Kent Walton - as a professional fan and as a sports journalist - also.

[David Mantell]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:32 PM, David Mantell said:

Also Rumble Promotions, Steve Barkers old 1990s company was revived after the pandemic and reactivated the British Lightweight Championship, won by Nino Bryant.  He is still defending the title on Rumble shows in 2023, but here is his 2021 title win.

 

Something I forgot to post -Apart from Nino Bryant, my other favourite young wrestler working the Traditional British style and having great clean technical matches is Jordan Breaks:

As the ring name suggest (and the programme page above implies) he is heavily influenced by Mike "Flash" Jordan and Jim Breaks (minus the crybaby heel act).  He even does the Breaks Special (and Johnny Saint's "Lady of the Lake" and "Russ Abbott" sequences and the Surfboard too.) 

Here he is in action from just before the pandemic, from that most thoroughly old school of old school promotions Premier

 

And here's a different match with Jordan Breaks from late 2021 with commentary from Lee Bamber! It's from a New School promotion, WrestleForce, but don't let that put you off, they have a very technical (apart from a few forearms and one aerial spot to ringside near the very end) clean bout that Kent Walton would have approved of:

[David Mantell]

On 8/28/2023 at 9:14 AM, David Mantell said:

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 On 5/12/2015 at 4:48 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

Dave Finlay vs. Danny Boy Collins (Pontardawe, taped 4/4/89)

 

These two had so many matches together that it almost needs to be a good series for both men's sake. At this point, it might even be a bigger feather in Finlay's cap if he can actually produce the goods with Collins. This was the best match of the hour almost by default as it was a bout that ran longer than 10 minutes, but Finlay was again a rock when it came to his slow pace, methodical style, and the match took a turn for the worse every time Collins was on offence. To have a good match with Finlay during this era, you need to take the fight to him like Kincaid or Jones did, but Collins would rather prance around. He finally showed some grit when they brawled on the outside, but that was the end of the bout. Whinging aside, this wasn't terrible. but it wasn't promising either. It was cool seeing a nine-year-old Arthur Psycho running around with a Metallica patch on his jacket, though.

 

Danny Boy Collins vs. Dave Finlay (Cage match, Merthyr, taped 3/29/90)

 

This was the best Finlay/Collins match so far, which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement but they managed to produce some fairly brutal looking stuff within the confines of the cage. Collins finally looked like a man, which was big because manning up has been an issue for him so far. Cool missile dropkick spot towards the end. First of their matches I'd recommend to people who worship at the altar of Finlay.

 

Fit Finlay vs. Danny Boy Collins (9/6/88)

 

This was from some VHS tape hosted by Mick McManus and a commentator whose name I couldn't quite make out (Lee Banda, or something like that.) It was basically an All-Star show taped at the Fairfield Halls at Croydon. A. Psycho gives a pretty amusing description of the pre-match vignette: "Before the match we see Collins limbering up and Paula giving Finlay a pre-fight massage. I was quite relieved when he moved his hand to see that he had [under] pants on. Equally so that Mick McManus interrupted them before he was tempted to ask for a happy ending." Mick's hair was so jet black that he looked like Bela Lugosi when he popped up on the screen. This was a pretty standard Finlay heel performance, but the crowd were right into it and it was a decent match. The commentary was an interesting deviation from the standard Walton fare, as they pointed out Paula's wrestling career, which Walton always ignored as Dale Martin didn't feature women's wrestling and her wrestling career occurred entirely on the rarely mentioned indy circuit. (She was always refereed to as Finlay's wife and manager by Walton.) They also pointed out that Collins had suffered from kidney problems the year before and had one of them removed and how he defied the odds to return to the ring (even pointing out the surgical scar.) I don't recall Walton ever sharing that information. Aside from the stock Finlay cheating and the Paula shtick, they worked this around the premise that Finlay was a monster and Collins a boy and that Finlay was used to wrestling much bigger men in the UK and Continental Europe. Again, nothing outstanding, but it had good heat and was well worked for the paying audience.

Dave Finlay vs. Danny Boy Collins (3/16/88)

Usual half-arsed Finlay bout from this era. One thing I was wrong about was that Collins' kidney operation wasn't acknowledged on ITV.

Collins is still pretty good in ring nowadays. There's a full All-Star show from last year on YouTube (headlined by Robbie Dynamite vs Jushin Liger), and the second match is Collins having a decent match with a pretty green David Finlay Jr. Collins also cuts this great pre-match promo where he tells young Finlay that he's going to be taking his revenge for every broken bone and every drop of blood he spilt at that hands of Finlay Sr.

As you can see, there was quite a long series of Finlay vs Collins matches, starting in about 1986 with an absolute squashing of Collins and climaxing in 1989 with Collins beating Finlay for the British HeavyMiddleweight title.  The 2012 match pitting an older Dirty Dan against Finlay JR, from a fan appreciation show at Croydon was something of a coda to this.

There was a final blowoff to all these years of Finlay pounding Collins and then Collins pounding on Finlay's son in Finlay's retirement match in Germany, Christmas 2012.

 

[Dav'oh]

I was doing a quiz and came across the word "Polari", which I was unfamiliar with, so I looked it up and found:

"Polari is a form of slang or cant used in Britain by some actors, circus and fairground showmen, professional wrestlers, merchant navy sailors, criminals, sex workers and, particularly, the gay subculture."

It seems to have (largely) died off by the 1970s, but was it ever actually the UK version of kayfabe?

[David Mantell]

1 hour ago, Dav'oh said:

I was doing a quiz and came across the word "Polari", which I was unfamiliar with, so I looked it up and found:

"Polari is a form of slang or cant used in Britain by some actors, circus and fairground showmen, professional wrestlers, merchant navy sailors, criminals, sex workers and, particularly, the gay subculture."

It seems to have (largely) died off by the 1970s, but was it ever actually the UK version of kayfabe?

If anything it was more a local alternative to C(iz)arny speak.

Most UK wrestlers tended to use cockney rhyming slang if they needed to code a conversation in the presence of outsiders.

Polari is mainly associated with LBGTQ+ culture and many people from that subculture are keen to preserve it as part of their heritage.

[David Mantell]

On 8/3/2023 at 2:01 PM, David Mantell said:

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The only bladejob I've seen was by Wayne Bridges in his title match against John Quinn and that resulted in an immediate stoppage.

A few more I could name -
Kendo Nagasaki vs Giant Haystacks 1977
The Iron Greek Spiros Arion vs Colin Joynson 1979
Blondie Barrett doing an ongoing cut angle in 1992

Quite a bit of juice in this one.

[David Mantell]

Been looking for these for some time.  Contains footage of a younger Zoltan Boscik and of "Judo" Al Hayes and Rebel Ray Hunter in singles bouts roughly from the same time as their tag team on French TV.

[David Mantell]

There's also a noticeably younger Max Ward in there.

[David Mantell]

Couple of good videos from 2011 from The Guardian newspaper in the UK.  Firstly one featuring the now sadly late Karl Kramer (Carl Davies):

This next one features Robbie Brookside and can be seen as a sort of sequel to the video diary 18 years later:

 

Quite a lot of famous faces in there includin 1970s up and comer Bobby Ryan celebrating a milestone birthday.  Also one of the two little girls grew up to be Xia Brookside who is doing well in Japan these days.

It says there was a series on the scene but sadly I can only find those two.  Good snapshots of Old School British Wrestling in the 2010s.

[Jetlag]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:18 AM, David Mantell said:

EWP's website is still up although Norton Security doesn't like it.  I like the photo they have in the background - it looks a lot like a C21st Town Show by All Star or Premier:

 

EWP has undergone some changes in their management. The promotion has been renamed to "CWP", Catch Wrestling Promotion, and they are back to running shows in a martial arts gym that holds about 100 fans. It's a far cry from their glory days, but at least they are still kicking.

[David Mantell]

8 minutes ago, Jetlag said:

 

EWP has undergone some changes in their management. The promotion has been renamed to "CWP", Catch Wrestling Promotion, and they are back to running shows in a martial arts gym that holds about 100 fans. It's a far cry from their glory days, but at least they are still kicking.

Good to see Old School German wrestling lives on and the kids in Britain today will continue to take the North Sea Ferry across to Gernany for a working holiday and a good payday.

Also means all six surviving Old School European promotions are still active - All Star, Rumble, Premier, FFCP, Wrestling Stars and EWP/CWP.

Thought I had the other night about 1980s TV series Auf Wiedersein Pet starring actor and top wrestling star in all three Northweist Euro territories Pat Roach.  The series was about a group of bricklayers from Northern England travelling to Germany to seek work due to lack or opportunities back home  due to the 1980s recession.  In retrospect a glorious metaphor for English wrestlers travelling to Germany for a payday at the Wrestling tent at the big annual beer drinking festivals.

[David Mantell]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:57 AM, David Mantell said:

 

 

On 9/12/2023 at 8:57 AM, David Mantell said:

Harry Sefton and Jordan Breaks had another bout in 2022 for New School promotion South London Wrestling

 

[David Mantell]

Another great modern classic from Jordon Breaks from just over a week ago (Fri 6th Oct). Stewart Shephard is very much the heel, but don't let that put you off - apart from one brief flurry of forearms around the 9 minute mark, it's technical wrestling all the way with Shephard also showing off a few good tricks of his own.

It's Rumble, so pray excuse the dreadful commentary by Aaron Nix.

 

[David Mantell]

I've done a quick search of the thread and not found anything so far on Rocco regaining the World Heavy Middleweight title from Fuji Yamada on ITV 1987 but there's been a good Vlog post from WrestleMe about the match. One interesting idea they pick up on is the patriotic hometown Brit Rocco as villain against Japanese blue eye Yamada even with both men carrying their flags. (Actually this HAS been done in America with Mr Saito Vs Larry Zybysko in 1990 in the dying AWA)

 

For those not familiar with the full bout:

 

[ohtani's jacket]

There are a lot of WoS reviews in the Microscope section of the board. Originally, I reviewed matches on another site and didn't copy those over to this board. 

[David Mantell]

Another classic that I thought we had discuused got a vlog from Wrestle Me

Here is the bout under discussion:

 

[David Mantell]

Went to Dudley Town Hall this evening for my first All Star show since the death of Brian Dixon earlier this year. No clean matches tonight but some good technical wrestling between Dylan Roberts and Ringo Ryan, the latter returned to the UK after several years in Australia and whom I recall as a promising bratty young heel in the early/mid 2010s. Also former NXT man Jack Starz pulled off a neat Johnny Saint "lady of the lake" sequence in his losing effort to Welsh strongman heel Caden Lay.

The big news as printed in the full colour All Star programme is that Tony Spitfire whom I posted a video of having a  classic British clean match with Dean Allmark in 2013 is now a heel, rebranded as the Loudmouth and taking verbal shots at audience members. Not that there was much evidence of this tonight as he was working as MC, doing the introductions in a blokily polite Johnny Vaughan sort of way

Superheavyweight tag team The Henchmen were on the bill (accompanied by a partner who was called Cannonball Grisly but clearly was not Paul Neu.) Forty years ago the Henchies would have been obvious cannon fodder for Big Daddy, nowadays they remind me of 1970s opposition heel team The Klonkykes (Jake made it onto ITV against Count Bartelli in 1976 and Bill made it onto French TV Vs Dave "Batman " Larsen in 1973.  Together,  they were the subject of a docu on BBC2 on the brothers, footage from which appeared in legendary sitcom Til Death Us Do Part on Alf Garnett's TV screen, saving the Beeb from having to pay ITV for footage.)

[David Mantell]

Main event last night was an 8 man Elimination "Royal Rumble Rules" (four a side, elimination by over the top rope, first team wiped out loses) match pitting the World Riot Squad (Niwa, Henchmen, Cannonball Grizzly who looked like a cross between Scrubber Daly and old time US wrestler Black Bart) Vs the All Star's (Joel "Oliver Grey" Redma , Dylan Roberts, Micky Long and Kris Dekker) - needless to say the blue-eyes won and sent the kiddy-dominated crowd home happy.

These seem to be catching on in old school promotions as Rumble did the same match type as a grand finale two weeks ago at their last YouTube recording at Ditton and posted the match last night while I was out at the show:

 

[David Mantell]

This was All Star's previous show from Dudley in February.  I'm probably somewhere in the crowd but haven't spotted myself yet.  Last time I met Brian Dixon before his death, as you can see he was in a wheelchair but still pretty cheerful.

 

[David Mantell]

Here is a couple of nights earlier in Aldershot, with veteran TV-era  MC Lee  Bamber (see various points earlier in the thread for more discussion about him. )

 

[David Mantell]

Another good bout recently, my favourite Jordan Breaks versus Lewis Mayhew who was Nino Bryant's opponent in the match to create a new British Lightweight champion in 2021

 

[David Mantell]

Good title match from 1993 - World Heavy Middleweight Championship Chic Cullen (defending World champion, the same title Rocco won back from Yamada in my above post) Vs Danny Collins (challenger, reigning British champion and World champion in the weight division below, Middleweight, since beating Owen Hart for the vacant title two years earlier at the same venue.)

Cullen would go on to hold his title until retiring in 2002; the following year he and Rollerball Rocco held a tournament for a new champion, won by Bryan Danielson. Collins would hold onto both his titles until 1996 when- by then Dirty Dan Collins- he vacated the World Middleweight title (Rumble Promotions held a tournament won by a young James Mason) and then gave up the British H-Mid title after beating Alan Kilby for the British Light Heavyweight title - Kilby got it back in 1997.

[David Mantell]

Probably the nearest thing there's ever been to an art-house Wrestling promotional video:  
Images of Nagasaki by Paul Yates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeidAfPyQsg

EDIT: Sorry, It's just highlights, the proper thing is a good 10-15min long and well worth the watch if it ever gets posted anywhere.

[David Mantell]

On 7/30/2023 at 9:10 PM, Jetlag said:

1. most of what we have of it is borderline unwatchable clipped handhelds - from the time period when the territory was already going downhill. We only have 1 full match from before 1980. I'm sure if we had TV quality whole matches from the 70s-80s or even 50s and 60s like with France there'd be a lot more great matches, maybe as many as we have from Britain. Fwiw the few better filmed matches we have (the CWA  and CCC comm tapes, the few matches from Hamburg and Recklinghausen that were filmed by a professional) are often good/great.

I've found these matches on YouTube, credited to the VDB and allegedly from 1998 although given the VDB shut in 1997 and looking at the general state of Marty Jones and Danny Collins and the fact they are both getting cheered and neither  are committing any real fouls I would guess 1993 as a more accurate date. It looks nothing like the CWA, if anything it looks and feels like a Joint Promotions/WOS taping from circa 1983.

On 7/31/2023 at 1:55 PM, Jetlag said:

2. German and Austrian fans very much loved lightweight guys like Mile Zrno, Steve Wright or Schumann, and those guys were given big title matches as a showcase fairly regularily, they just weren't made into big drawing acts. Other beloved guys like Franz van Buyten, Axel Dieter or Achim Chall were also not that huge tho they were certainly bigger than the lightweights in the UK and France. Whether or not the crowds here will accept a lightweight as a major star is still subject to debate

There's a bout I was watching between the older Achim Chall and Louise (sic!) Laurence from Hanover 1980 and young Louise reminds me of kids in England from that time like Steve Logan MK2 and John Savage. Refreshingly given the horror stories we hear of Axel Dieter demanding wins at gunpoint and Bret Hart complaining of having to job for old men, young Lou gets the win.EDITno, sadly he doesn't he has to put over bald old Chall.

The picture quality is interesting, one fixed camera with a non interlaced image that looks like 16mm film rather than videotape. If it was film, I wonder if it ever got screened anywhere?

[Jetlag]

13 hours ago, David Mantell said:

I've found these matches on YouTube, credited to the VDB and allegedly from 1998 although given the VDB shut in 1997 and looking at the general state of Marty Jones and Danny Collins and the fact they are both getting cheered and neither  are committing any real fouls I would guess 1993 as a more accurate date. It looks nothing like the CWA, if anything it looks and feels like a Joint Promotions/WOS taping from circa 1983.

There's a bout I was watching between the older Achim Chall and Louise (sic!) Laurence from Hanover 1980 and young Louise reminds me of kids in England from that time like Steve Logan MK2 and John Savage. Refreshingly given the horror stories we hear of Axel Dieter demanding wins at gunpoint and Bret Hart complaining of having to job for old men, young Lou gets the win.EDITno, sadly he doesn't he has to put over bald old Chall.

The picture quality is interesting, one fixed camera with a non interlaced image that looks like 16mm film rather than videotape. If it was film, I wonder if it ever got screened anywhere?

 

 

VDB was active until about 2005. It wasn't exactly a huge organization at that point, basically the pet project of like 2 guys. They even ran an old school 59 day tournament in Hannover in 1999 but it didn't go well.

 

Those late 90s shows were indeed different from CWA and that was the intention. Axel Dieter Sr himself helped organize/book them. The intention was to do a throwback to the classic days of European catch. That's why they look like that and the style is much more technical.

 

I am pretty sure the 1980 stuff was filmed by a cameraman hired by Axel Dieter. It ended up in Dieters archive and his son briefly sold the material on DVDs through German messageboards in the 2000s.