Is John Cena a better worker than Kurt Angle?

[Mad Dog]

I wrote a big long post 7 years ago about how Angle was overrated.

 

I think you can sum up Kurt Angle's career in a single incident. And that was complaining to management that Eddie Guerrero was stopping to sell during their Summerslam match instead of letting him go on to the next move. It's 8 years after that happened and he still does the same shit. Sure, I enjoyed his matches with Jeff Jarrett last year but that was because Jarrett reigned him in and made him actually work a match. That's really the story of his career. You get him in there with a seasoned veteran that takes control and makes him slow down, he's a really competent guy that can do his part. You let him lead the show and you get something that a couple of indy guys would come up with. He's been in the business for what? 14 years now? And in a lot of ways, he was more competent when he was sticking to the basics and still trying to learn.

[Jingus]

I've recently seen several people here hating on the Kurt/Shane street fight. Why? It surprised me to see it, since that's literally the first time I've ever heard of anyone disliking that match. Aside from the unnecessary danger of the idiotic "suplexes through glass walls" spots, what did you think was wrong with it?

[Matt D]

I wrote a big long post 7 years ago about how Angle was overrated.

 

I think you can sum up Kurt Angle's career in a single incident. And that was complaining to management that Eddie Guerrero was stopping to sell during their Summerslam match instead of letting him go on to the next move. It's 8 years after that happened and he still does the same shit. Sure, I enjoyed his matches with Jeff Jarrett last year but that was because Jarrett reigned him in and made him actually work a match. That's really the story of his career. You get him in there with a seasoned veteran that takes control and makes him slow down, he's a really competent guy that can do his part. You let him lead the show and you get something that a couple of indy guys would come up with. He's been in the business for what? 14 years now? And in a lot of ways, he was more competent when he was sticking to the basics and still trying to learn.

I often want to reference this incident but I can never find a good source. Do we know what the source was?

[Loss]

Ridiculously excessive. No wrestler should ever sell for Shane. Even slightly. At all. They're "athletes", Shane is a guy off the street. He also took bumps that raised the bar to the point that wrestlers who had to work the next night couldn't keep up. What is good about that match?

[Mad Dog]

I thought I read it in the Observer.

[Mad Dog]

Ridiculously excessive. No wrestler should ever sell for Shane. Even slightly. At all. They're "athletes", Shane is a guy off the street. He also took bumps that raised the bar to the point that wrestlers who had to work the next night couldn't keep up. What is good about that match?

The street fight vs. Test was actually a much more logical match than the Angle match.

[blueminister]

The psychology of Angle matches sometimes ventures into schizoid territory. There was a match months ago with James Storm where the announcers kept railing on about how Storm would have to beat Angle with brawling and power and not get tricked into playing the pure wrestling game with the Olympic wrestling champion. While this is being said Storm shoots in on Angle, jockeys, outwrestles Angle and catches him in a grounded hammerlock that forces a rope break. Angle makes his comeback with brawling.

 

The guy is playing some sort of 13-dimensional chess in his head in regards to molding a match to defy expectations when in actuality there's hardly ever any reason to go beyond tic-tac-toe.

[tlk23]

If you look at their top 10 matches star rating wise.

 

Kurt Angle

vs. Shawn Michaels WM 21 (****3/4)

vs. Chris Benoit Royal Rumble 2003 (****3/4)

vs. Edge and Rey Mysterio No Mercy 2002 (****3/4)

 

vs. Jeff Jarrett Genesis 2009 (****1/2)

vs. Shawn Michaels Vengeance 2005 (****1/2)

vs. Chris Benoit Unforgiven 2002 (****1/2)

vs. Rock and Undertaker Vengenace 2002 (****1/2)

vs. Edge (Hair Match) Judgement Day 2002 (****1/2)

vs. Steve Austin Summerslam 2001 (****1/2)

vs. Mr. Anderson Lockdown 2010 (****1/2)

 

 

John Cena

vs. CM Punk Money in the Bank 2011 (*****)

 

vs. Brock Lesnar Backlash 2012 (****1/2)

vs. Edge (Last Man Standing) Backlash 2009 (****1/2)

vs. Edge/Randy Orton/Shawn Michaels Backlash 2007 (****1/2)

 

vs. Edge Unforgiven 2006 (TLC) (****1/4)

vs. Edge/HHH Backlash 2006 (****1/4)

vs. JBL (I Quit) Judgement Day 2006 (****1/4)

vs. Kurt Angle No Mercy 2003 (****1/4)

vs. Batista (Last Man Standing) Extreme Rules 2010 (****1/4)

vs. Randy Orton (I Quit) Breaking Point 2009 (****1/4)

 

The biggest problem is if you want a wrestling match, then Angle is your guy. If you want a main event, gimmick match, (LMS, I Quit) then Cena is your guy.

[Matt D]

I want a wrestling match and Angle sure as hell isn't my guy.

[Coffey]

We have four votes for Kurt Angle now. I would like to see one of the people that voted that way to explain their decisions and why they feel that way. This thread is sort of directionless if someone doesn't take the Angle side.

[Matt D]

Also, WON star ratings when it comes to Angle are absurd. I don't know if it's because of legitimacy, or because Meltzer loves ACTION or what, but it's just nuts.

[Mr Wrestling X]

Also, WON star ratings when it comes to Angle are absurd. I don't know if it's because of legitimacy, or because Meltzer loves ACTION or what, but it's just nuts.

I don't put much stock in Meltzer's ratings because he doesn't use seperate ratings for each style of promotion. For example, there is no fucking way that John Cena vs. CM Punk at MITB 2011 equaled ANY of Misawa's, Kawada's or Kobashi's five star efforts.

[Bix]

Also, WON star ratings when it comes to Angle are absurd. I don't know if it's because of legitimacy, or because Meltzer loves ACTION or what, but it's just nuts.

I don't put much stock in Meltzer's ratings because he doesn't use seperate ratings for each style of promotion. For example, there is no fucking way that John Cena vs. CM Punk at MITB 2011 equaled ANY of Misawa's, Kawada's or Kobashi's five star efforts.

 

Hmm?

 

Dave has repeatedly said he's rating matches in the context of their time and promotion.

 

Even then, yes, it did.

[anarchistxx]

A journalist writing about UK actor/celebrity/personality Stephen Fry once quipped that he was 'a stupid persons idea of what an intelligent person is like'. I can't seem to paraphrase it into what I mean here, but basically I think Kurt Angle is the wrestling example of that.

 

Having said that, I still think he is better over his career than John Cena.

 

I suppose I am now what would be termed a casual fan; I watch the occasional PPV, the odd highly regarded match from Japan, a couple of times a year I dig my old DVDs out and watch old things. So for me it comes down to who I would rather watch in a ten minute match when I’ve taken the time out to view some grappling. The answer is unequivocally Kurt Angle. I know ‘I’d just rather watch him’ is a reductive, straightforward way of assessing the issue, although that is what it boils down to in essence.

 

But to enter the spirit of the debate, here's a few badly worded bulleted arguments for Kurt being the better worker;

 

- I like fast paced matches with lots of reversals, twists and turns, little downtime, and dare I say it a good range of offence and lots of moves. Angle provides that, albeit often at the expense of story, selling and subtlety. We shouldn’t discount how much questions like this come down to personal taste. I know minimalist wrestling is in vogue now, evidenced by fairly limited athletes like Jerry Lawler getting universally praised due to other elements they bring to the table, and guys working grumpy veteran style like Bubba Dudley are valued more than people like Angle who work more like traditional internet superworkers. But Angle's matches are more entertaining to me; his formula is more enjoyable than Cena's.

 

- Cena is the better seller generally, but not by the margin some here are suggesting. Even though he sells better in a match, he still doesn't mind blowing the work off to run through his largely lame comeback routine. It's not as bad or as formulaic as Hogan, but it can still get pretty intelligence insulting. I've seen him take severe beatings that he blows off to blast out a five knuckle shuffle. The Lesnar match is a good example of him getting battered the full match, selling it brilliantly, and then it all turning out worthless. Angle, on the other hand, just eschews selling generally, although I find that easier to ignore for some reason.

 

And Kurt can sell; the Summerslam 2001 match with Austin where he's bleeding all over the place before mounting a desperate, fiery comeback is a prime exa,mple. As is the rematch at Unforgiven, which is even built around Angle selling the neck and fervently avoiding Austin's attempts at a piledriver. The best comparison for Summerslam is Cena/Umaga I suppose, a match I enjoyed considerably less, although the major difference is that Cena was carrying Umaga, whereas Angle was the one being carried by Austin. . It’s almost like Angle was better before he started believing the hype about how good he was, and decided he needed to put on a 'ring clinic' instead of focusing on selling.

 

- The major reason is that I just don't find Cena believable as a character or as a worker. His acting is phony, his character is phony. Angle is a better talker – Cena’s promos are, again, cheesy, phoney, scripted, fake, unbelievable. He could never pull off all the goofy comedy that Angle was involved in 2000-2002 without people cringing from embarrassment. Angle does intense better as well - Cena just appears cliched, over the top, whereas Angle makes you believe he's angry, motivated and wants to fuck shit up out there.

 

Angle also seems more like a legitimate badass; his moves look effective and often violent, he's athletic - he seems to me like a competitor, whereas when I watch Cena all I see is someone playing at being a cartoon hero, which stops me enjoying his matches. Angle was awesome in 2006 as the 'wrestling machine', ploughing through guys and being presented as unstoppable. It actually reigned in his worst qualities of overdoing things and underselling things, as he was booked to go short, hard and not give much away.

 

- Angle also seems more versatile; he can fly off cages, he can mat wrestle, he can have WWE style main events with dozens of near falls, he can brawl. With Cena you know exactly what you're getting, and it takes some like like Punk or Lesnar to inspire him into something different. Maybe Angle is very predictable now; I wouldn't know as I haven't seen him regularly for years (although I did see the brawl with Jarrett which was excellent). But circa 2000 to 2004 Angle could work anywhere on the card, with anyone, and put on something at least vaguely entertaining on a base level. Cena also had two of the most unmemorable Wrestlemania title matches in history, against Miz and JBL. I get the feeling that Angle would have at least pulled something out of the ordinary/crazy out to differentiate the matches.

 

I also don't understand why some people are so opposed to Shane getting in so much offence at King of the Ring. Angle had wrestled two hard matches already that night, and in a wild, no holds barred fight it isn't too out of the question that Shane would be able to mount some sort of attack. It's certainly no more unbelievable than, say, Rey Mysterio having a competitive match with Big Show.

 

I’m not sure if I’m really best placed to argue this one anyway; I haven’t seen either guy on a week to week basis for six years or more, although I have seen the pimped matches. So my argument isn’t that Angle is a better worker now, more that he’s a better worker in an all time sense.

 

I also think, unless there has been a ridiculous sea change in the last couple of years, that Angle would be considered by a country mile the better worker by most internet fans (do we even use that term anymore? Are all fans internet fans now?). Just look at comments in YouTube videos and on most forums to see how hated Cena is, and how much of a scapegoat he is for the current product. Most people still think Angle to be a very good worker, if not the superworker he was perceived as in most smart circles circa-2005.

 

One thing cena does have is a sense of occasion; the Punk match last year exemplified that, helped as it was by being in Chicago and by Punk’s excellent promos in the buildup. Angle has no mystique, his matches don’t feel like an event anymore, if ever. The last one that did is probably Angle/Michaels a Wrestlemania, or Angle/Joe for the internet fans who just wanted to see their dream match.

 

I guess as I've got older I've become less interested in dissecting a match, and more interested in a match that can suck me in, feature some cool shit, go back and forth etc.

 

Neither of these guys would crack my top fifty of all time, and maybe not even my top hundred, although I've seen next to no Mexican wrestling.

[Loss]

I also don't understand why some people are so opposed to Shane getting in so much offence at King of the Ring. Angle had wrestled two hard matches already that night, and in a wild, no holds barred fight it isn't too out of the question that Shane would be able to mount some sort of attack. It's certainly no more unbelievable than, say, Rey Mysterio having a competitive match with Big Show.

Of course it's worse. Rey is a trained athlete. Shane is a guy off the street. Untrained athletes should be tied in knots by Olympic gold medalists.

 

I also think, unless there has been a ridiculous sea change in the last couple of years, that Angle would be considered by a country mile the better worker by most internet fans (do we even use that term anymore? Are all fans internet fans now?). Just look at comments in YouTube videos and on most forums to see how hated Cena is, and how much of a scapegoat he is for the current product. Most people still think Angle to be a very good worker, if not the superworker he was perceived as in most smart circles circa-2005.

I suspect most people don't know Kurt Angle still wrestles.

[anarchistxx]

Of course it's worse. Rey is a trained athlete. Shane is a guy off the street. Untrained athletes should be tied in knots by Olympic gold medalists.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility for the viewer to believe that Shane engaged in some training before stepping into the ring. Is it really expected he would have agreed to a match otherwise?

 

Rey might be a trained athlete; but a featherweight boxer beating a heavyweight boxer in the ring is to me no more absurd than a regular guy beating a boxer in a bar fight, as an analogy.

 

I suspect most people don't know Kurt Angle still wrestles.

Come off it, we live in the age of the internet. I'm sure most wrestling fans are aware of TNA somehow. TNA actually gets better ratings than WWE over here.

[Bix]

I suspect most people don't know Kurt Angle still wrestles.

Come off it, we live in the age of the internet. I'm sure most wrestling fans are aware of TNA somehow. TNA actually gets better ratings than WWE over here.

 

TNA has always existed in the age of the Internet. That didn't stop wrestling fans who bumped into them from constantly asking Kurt Angle, Mike Tenay, and I'm sure many others who haven't admitted it publicly what they've been doing since they left wrestling.

[Matt D]

I know minimalist wrestling is in vogue now, evidenced by fairly limited athletes like Jerry Lawler getting universally praised due to other elements they bring to the table, and guys working grumpy veteran style like Bubba Dudley are valued more than people like Angle who work more like traditional internet superworkers. But Angle's matches are more entertaining to me; his formula is more enjoyable than Cena's.

I kind of wonder if this is ever going to go back the other way around. I think it can only go so far. The "moves should matter" genie is a hard one to stuff back in.

[Mad Dog]

Rey might be a trained athlete; but a featherweight boxer beating a heavyweight boxer in the ring is to me no more absurd than a regular guy beating a boxer in a bar fight, as an analogy.

Genki Sudo (155 lbs.) pretty easily handled Butterbean (huge) in an MMA fight in Pride. Just saying.

[Loss]

Of course it's worse. Rey is a trained athlete. Shane is a guy off the street. Untrained athletes should be tied in knots by Olympic gold medalists.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility for the viewer to believe that Shane engaged in some training before stepping into the ring. Is it really expected he would have agreed to a match otherwise?

Assumptions should never exist in good wrestling. A wrestler they were wanting to push taking Shane under his wing, with training vignettes and Shane using a few of that wrestler's moves to limited success wouldn't have been good, but it wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world. What they did was pretty much the worst thing in the world.

 

Rey might be a trained athlete; but a featherweight boxer beating a heavyweight boxer in the ring is to me no more absurd than a regular guy beating a boxer in a bar fight, as an analogy.

It's a mixed analogy, since wrestling isn't fake fighting, it's fake athletic competition. The mind boggles that you think Shane McMahon is more credible than Rey Misterio.

[Mad Dog]

Look at the Shane vs. Test Street Fight from Summerslam. Shane gets some offense in but you never really believe that Test is in any real danger at any point in the match.

[anarchistxx]

Um, at no stage did I say that Shane McMahon was more credible than Rey Mysterio. The point I made was that Shane McMahon holding his own, using weapons, in a brawl against an already exhausted Kurt Angle, was no less believable than a tiny guy like Rey Mysterio getting in a lot of offence against a 500LB monster.

 

There were extenuating circumstances as to why Shane was able to somewhat hold his own, and since the ending was him getting pretty decimated then I don't see the problem. And there's also the fact that Shane, rightly or wrongly, has always been presented as fairly competitive, willing to put his body on the line to compete. He isn't like a referee where the slightest touch knocks him down for the next ten minutes.

 

LT beating Bigelow at WMIX is a far bigger insult to wrestling fans than Shane knocking Angle down with weapon shots.

 

Genki Sudo (155 lbs.) pretty easily handled Butterbean (huge) in an MMA fight in Pride. Just saying.

A little different, firstly because Butterbean was a 'specialist' in a different discipline, and also far past his prime and overweight and generally a bit of a joke by that point. Big Show is a guy who has run through pretty much all the big names in the company. I'm not saying it's unbelievable that Mysterio could compete with him, only that it's no less believable than Shane McMahon putting up a fight against Kurt Angle.

[Loss]

LT was a famous professional athlete who in the storyline was trained extensively by Diesel.

[Coffey]

LT was a famous professional athlete who in the storyline was trained extensively by Diesel.

but...but...there were a lot of tough people in Greenwich...but Shane was the toughest!

 

MEAN STREET POSSE~!

 

This thread has become so much more than I was anticipating. I'm really glad that I made it now. Also, props to anarchistxx for taking the defense of Angle in a thread where he'll obviously be the minority in that opinion.

[Matt D]

I do think his primary argument is "different people have different tastes" combined with "You people are a joke to the rest of the world" though.