Nick Bockwinkel

[soup23]

Flair pretty much gets his ass beat in the Hawk matches on GAB 86 and at Bunkhouse Stampede 88.

[JerryvonKramer]

True actually. Blocked them from memory because I fucking hate Hawk. I can't wait for the Road Warriors to bugger off up north truth be told.

 

EDIT: I would say though, that Hawk and Luger (and Hogan) are all supermen who you would expect to dominate against a Bockwinkel or a Flair. I don't think that's true of Martel or Brad Rhenniganns. And I don't think there's an equivalent of Flair getting dominated by a Rick Martel.

[Dylan Waco]

Flair gets his ass beat in a lot of matches, especially studio matches. I actually think the claim that he doesn't is kind of weird.

 

I looked up "Ric Flair studio" and this is the first match that came up:

 

 

This is Flair v. Jay Youngblood perhaps from 81 MACW tv out of Charlotte. Flair is the world champion. The match goes about eight minutes to a draw. I doubt very seriously they were building to a Flair v. Youngblood series of house show main events. The match goes to draw at about eight minutes. Youngblood wins every exchange of the first six minutes decisively. Flair throws to the floor shortly after the six minute mark. Flair's run of offense lasts for about a minute. Then Jay makes his comeback and has Flair on the ropes when time expires.

 

Now it's possible Flair gets more offense in this then Bock did v. Rheingans - I really don't remember. But the reality is Ric got his ass kicked and was completely shown up in this match. He got virtually no offense to the point where seven of the eight minutes was him getting his ass kicked. As world champion. Against a guy who I doubt seriously was getting a major title shot, let alone series of shots like Rheingans was being groomed for.

 

This is literally the first match I picked.

[JerryvonKramer]

I just watched that and Flair definitely gets more in that match than in the Bock examples.

 

I'm NOT saying that Flair doesn't get his ass kicked a lot, it's Flair that's his MO. I'm just saying he comes away from the matches with a feeling that he is actually a great wrestler whereas I haven't always felt that watching these Bock matches.

 

I'm not the only one:

 

http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/topic/5...n/#entry1547366

 

Clayton Jones also has the exact same thought two posts down.

 

I don't fully agree with WrestlingPower, because I think he takes it too far. I'm limiting it to instances where he's doing his version of the Flair title match.

 

What I will say though, in fairness, is that this seems to be an AWA thing as much as a Bock thing. ALL of the heels have been quite weak looking so far, including Blackwell and he's 400+lbs.

 

Many matches have had very long shine sequences for faces and truncated stretch sequences for the heels. Some of them -- the VERNE tag match, for example -- don't even have a proper stretch sequence. That's booking style.

 

NWA style usually gives the heel a decent control segment. With Flair this often comes late in the day, but it's there.

 

You'll see from my recent posts over on DVDR that I'm far from being down on Bock, I just don't like champs coming off as weak as he does sometimes.

 

I know you basically see the mirror image of how I see the comparison with Flair, but we may have to agree to disagree on it.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not saying you are the only one. I'm saying I don't see it as a major flaw of Bock, nor do I see it as a particularly common way for Bock to work, nor do I think it is dissimilar in any way from the way Flair often worked studio matches. Flair may get more in in that match - but the reality is he gets next to nothing in that match and there was zero in that match that made him look like a better wrestler than Youngblood. Nothing. And Youngblood wasn't getting Rheingans singles push.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's what I think Dylan. You are right that Flair has matches where he comes off second best. But the fans always know he's a world class wrestler, that he could go 60 minutes with Steamboat, or whoever tomorrow and come out with the belt.

 

I think Bock has his version of that too.

 

But I do think there's a fundamental difference between Bock and Flair.

 

I've argued before that Flair isn't really a chickenshit, he's mainly just pretending to be one. I've argued that under it all he's an athlete and a psycho.

 

I think Bock IS actually a chickenshit and more than that he's a conniving, sneaky villain who revels in conniving, sneaky villainy.

 

This is just a theory right now, I need to see more of him in 84 and 85 to back it up, but it feels like deep down Flair wants to have a prove he's the man by having a great match and deep down Bock wants to escape with the title. (talking in kayfabe terms here)

 

Now because Flair's character is a guy who ... deep down ... is a great athelete who wants to prove he's the best that kinda shines through and gives you a feeling of greatness.

 

Because Bock's character is a guy who ... deep down ... is cynically playing the rules to his advantage and actually doesn't care about proving he's better, he just wants to be champion ... he doesn't quite give you that feeling of greatness. He has no macho pride like Flair does, he's actually really happy with a cheap win or retaining on a technicality.

 

I could be wrong on that, but it's the feeling I get. And it may well be the root cause of why myself, WrestlingPower and Clayton Jones all feel that way.

 

IF that is the case, then it's nothing to hold against him either. It's just that his character isn't Flair's.

[KrisZ]

Youngblood by that time was a former NWA World Tag champion and was a very credible opponent to Flair. That match was mainly done to start Flair's heel turn.

 

Now you can use this one as a better example as Tommy Rogers was low mid-card here in GCW although he was just a NWA World Jr. Heavyweight champ but wasn't in his class. Flair though is at his best here of making his opponents look worthy.

 

[Dylan Waco]

Was Youngblood being positioned for multiple world title matches in big arenas?

[KrisZ]

No but he was a guy who was seen as one of the most popular faces in the territory although at that time was starting to drop on the cards.

[Dylan Waco]

In early 80's I'm guessing based on what I've seen, read that Youngblood was akin to Jim Brunzell in the AWA during same rough time frame. That might even be a slightly favorable representation. In any case the point is that Rheingans v. Bock was about building a new major building challenger for Bock.

[Johnny Sorrow]

True actually. Blocked them from memory because I fucking hate Hawk. I can't wait for the Road Warriors to bugger off up north truth be told.

 

[KrisZ]

The Youngblood/Brunzell comparison is a good one.

 

Regarding Rheingans he only got one shot in cities like Denver, Green Bay, & Winnipeg and here is his shot at Bock in St. Paul almost 3 months after the TV match.

 

AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – September 25, 1983

Steve O fought Bill White to a draw

Buck Zumhofe d. Steve Regal

Blackjack Lanza d. Bobby Heenan by countout

Jim Brunzell, Greg Gagne, & Rick Martel d. Crusher Blackwell, Ken Patera, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey

Handicap Match: Hulk Hogan d. Mr. Saito & David Shultz by DQ

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Nick Bockwinkel © fought Brad Rheingans to a draw

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm not sure it's the best example KrisZ: Flair gets a butterfly suplex in, several big chops, an elbow drop, a knee drop and a submission win with the figure-four in less than 5 minutes. Bock gets all of two knee lifts vs. Rheingans in 12 minutes and less than that in the same vs. Martel.

 

I understand the argument about building a challenger. And I even concede the argument that Flair may have matches that are equivalent out there somewhere (though neither the Youngblood nor Rogers examples are quite as extreme as the two Bock examples). What I maintain is that Flair retains a feeling of greatness, whereas Bock for various reasons doesn't. I'm talking about greatness in kayfabe terms (see post above).

 

EDIT: And Johnny, you'll never sell me on Hawk, I think he's a real-life dickhead who doesn't actually understand a loss in wrestling doesn't make you a loser.

[KrisZ]

Okay well watch this if you want angry Bock

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYALa4gASo0

[JerryvonKramer]

KrisZ, my argument is not that Bock can't get angry or doesn't than different modes. I've said this earlier this evening on DVDR:

 

I love that Bock had to radically adjust his gameplan to stay in with any chance. This is at least the third different style we've seen him work so far.

Great to see Bock in psycho mode taking it to Vachon at the top of this match. Bockwinkel is starting to seem like a real total package: he can work technical matches with Billy Robinson or slugfests with guys like Vachon and Wahoo or do Flair-style "champ underneath" matches (although I've not been such a fan of those). Nonetheless, he can work holds, throw suplex variations, brawl and sell - not much more you can want out of a worker. And this set has already made me start thinking about him in terms of a top 10 sort of guy.

It's that when he's doing his bitch champ matches he doesn't come off with the feeling of greatness (as Flair mostly did), and maybe doesn't give off the feeling of greatness period (as Flair definitely did).

 

That's not to say he wasn't great.

[KrisZ]

Plus you act like the Road Warriors were in the ring shooting in their matches......THEY WERE BOOKED TO WIN THEIR MATCHES

[Dylan Waco]

The Youngblood/Brunzell comparison is a good one.

 

Regarding Rheingans he only got one shot in cities like Denver, Green Bay, & Winnipeg and here is his shot at Bock in St. Paul almost 3 months after the TV match.

 

AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – September 25, 1983

Steve O fought Bill White to a draw

Buck Zumhofe d. Steve Regal

Blackjack Lanza d. Bobby Heenan by countout

Jim Brunzell, Greg Gagne, & Rick Martel d. Crusher Blackwell, Ken Patera, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey

Handicap Match: Hulk Hogan d. Mr. Saito & David Shultz by DQ

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Nick Bockwinkel © fought Brad Rheingans to a draw

Not that uncommon during the period.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not sure it's the best example KrisZ: Flair gets a butterfly suplex in, several big chops, an elbow drop, a knee drop and a submission win with the figure-four in less than 5 minutes. Bock gets all of two knee lifts vs. Rheingans in 12 minutes and less than that in the same vs. Martel.

 

I understand the argument about building a challenger. And I even concede the argument that Flair may have matches that are equivalent out there somewhere (though neither the Youngblood nor Rogers examples are quite as extreme as the two Bock examples). What I maintain is that Flair retains a feeling of greatness, whereas Bock for various reasons doesn't. I'm talking about greatness in kayfabe terms (see post above).

 

EDIT: And Johnny, you'll never sell me on Hawk, I think he's a real-life dickhead who doesn't actually understand a loss in wrestling doesn't make you a loser.

If you were talking greatness in kayfabe terms, why the comment about him wanting to have great matches? That's the most non-kayfabe thing ever no?

[KrisZ]

Rheingans' problem was that he was so bland. Sure he was legit and had the background but guys like Martel, Hogan, hell even Brunzell were getting more shots because they had charisma. Great worker but I think he would've been much better as a heel.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think there's such a thing as as the in-kayfabe idea of a great match. And I think the in-kayfabe version of Flair prided himself on them. I'm not sure that the in-kayfabe Bock did.

 

Anyway, I'm going to bed. If it's turned to guys trying to tell me Hawk wasn't a selfish worker, we're not having the discussion I want here. I actively despise him in one of those Flair matches. You can start a Road Warriors thread so I know to stay out of it.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't disagree on Rheingans. He was clearly a Verne favorite as evidenced by the fact that he got the Patera/Taylor push upon debuting IIRC, but he never got any traction. Despite that Verne stayed with him for years

[Matt D]

They should have put him with Kassie. That was way too extreme for AWA though.

[KrisZ]

I always thought the lost great tag team of the AWA was a heel Rheingans/Billy Robinson team.

[Dylan Waco]

I think there's such a thing as as the in-kayfabe idea of a great match. And I think the in-kayfabe version of Flair prided himself on them. I'm not sure that the in-kayfabe Bock did.

So Flair would rather have a "great" match than beat his opponent?

[Matt D]

I love Pro Wrestling USA Robinson where he's backstage as Kamala's handler. It's the most random thing.