goodhelmet Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Col. Debeers vs. Jerry Blackwell (Ladder Match) (11/27/86) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (11/27/86) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/27/87) Leon White vs. Boris Zuhkov (2/21/87) OK, tentatively, we have myself, Johnny Sorrow and Johnny P lined up. I want my buddy shoe to jump in but he might be on a cocaine bender somewhere on 6th street. I might take the Buddy Rose bump challenge with a bottle of Crown and see if I can survive three Rockers vs. Rose/Somers matches back to back to back. Once i have a time, I'll post a link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 I am glad you are watching both Rose/Somers cage matches at once Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 I have seen both of them before. No surprises here. Might just be a fun way to justify my drinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny P Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Looking forward to it. I've never watched the series (a big whole in my viewing resume), so seeing a few these will do my cred well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...6382&cmd=tc Newest episode is up. Always love talking to Johnny P. No surprise that the match that Matt hates, we all loved as the Match of the Night. Go figure. Different strokes, Blah blah blah. These were my match rankings for tonight's matches Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/27/87) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86) Col. Debeers vs. Jerry Blackwell (Ladder Match) (11/27/86) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (11/27/86) Leon White vs. Boris Zuhkov (2/21/87) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 We did a great show tonight. Lotsa fun. My rankings: 1. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86) 2. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87) 3. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86) 4. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/27/87) 5. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (11/27/86) 6. Col. Debeers vs. Jerry Blackwell (Ladder Match) (11/27/86) 7. Leon White vs. Boris Zuhkov (2/21/87) These are the tightest rankings yet. The only definites are Lil' Vader/ Boris last and the Christmas Cage match first. Matt, I love ya, but you're insane re: that cage match. It was awesome and was a major part of the overall story the feud was telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I agree with almost all of Matt's criticisms of the match, I just think he takes them to far. Didn't like the match nearly as much on second (and third) watches as first watch. Won't be anywhere near the bottom of my ballot, but of matches involving Rockers v. Rose/Somers combo it will be sixth on my ballot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I loved the first cage match because it was totally based on the emotions the feud is based on. The Rockers run into the cage to get their hands on these two cheating fuckers and unleash all their frustration, and Rose and Somers have nowhere to run thanks to the cage. THEN in the next cage match, Rose and Somers try to hold the door closed as the Rockers are trying to enter, because the last time, they got their asses kicked when the Rockers rushed into the cage. This time, they'll try to hold them back to "fuck with the Rockers game plan". The entire feud is chapters of a great story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I get that aspect of things, which is one of the reasons I don't hate the match like Matt does. But I don't the execution was nearly as good as the idea. I thought of all the matches it was the only match where I felt like The Rockers were showing how green they were and I thought the faces in control stuff really ate up an unnecessary large amount of the match. I do LOVE Doug Somers in that match though. In any event my point is that I'm kind of in between parties on this because I like the match and agree that it is part of the story of the feud, but also completely understand - and in many respects agree - with Matt's criticisms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I don't agree with any of Matt's criticisms. I actually read them off on the show and all three of us were thinking WTF? The Rockers get the heels in the cage where Sherri can't help interfere and beat the shit out of the heels for ten minutes into bloody pulps. Shawn Michaels is too cocky for his own britches, refuses to take a three count and he pays by getting covered in blood and getting pounded by the heels until the big finish. The cage was used great. Buddy's head being slammed into the corner post was especially nasty. I'll go the Phil Schneider route and say I liked the 12/25 match more than the 1/17 match but they were both great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Funny, I had a phone conversation with someone where we talked about Matt's thoughts on the match and he was almost in complete agreement with him, though like me believed he took them too far. There was plenty of nasty stuff in the match, particularly during the heel control segment. My problem is I thought the front end of the match was the definition of gratuitous. It just went on way too long. I hated the pull ups on the falls in practice. In principle I don't have a problem with them, but where they were placed in the match just felt idiotic to me. I completely agree with Matt that it was a heat killer and it absolutely would have been for me if I was live in the building. I also didn't like the way the cage was used early, mainly the spots with Marty blowing shit off. If there had been a mini-heat segment bridging from a shine into some of this stuff I think I would have liked it a ton better, but all of that as part of the shine? I don't buy The Rockers as The Road Warriors, especially not in 1986. If people like and even love the front end of the match that is fine, but I really like it less and less on every new viewing of the match. I think once the heels are in control it's excellent, but up until that point I wasn't buying what they were selling as a package even though I like several of the spots during the front end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I think your original thoughts on the match sum up my feelings, Johnny P's feelings, Johnny Sorrow's feelings best... The pagaentry of the pre-match stuff is a lot of fun and adds to this. Rockers come in and just destroy the heels tossing them wildly into the Cage. Sherri is going crazy as Buddy blades early and Michaels throws jabs at Somers flooring him. Somers blades big time. Marty goes to bang the heels heads together and Rose rakes his eyes instead and then tosses him into the Cage. Martel is on the floor literally crying and screaming for Buddy to kill him. Buddy goes up top but Marty kips up and Rose ends up getting crotched and then having the back of his head slammed into the cage over and over. Rose ends up punching Jannetty in the balls to kill momentum but Marty comes back and just starts wailing on Rose. The heels just look dead to the World and the faces are oddly methodical picking them over. Michaels hits a nice diving elbow for a nearfall on Somers. Shawn challenges Rose to come in while they rake Doug over the Cage. Michaels wipes blood on his hand and appears to lick it before decking Somers. Somers goes low with a headbutt and crawls over tagging in Rose. Michaels takes an AWESOME slingshot bump into the steel and gets busted open and Rose is awesome laying in the punches while Michaels stumbles around punch drunk. Rose gets a nearfall and then another off of a DDT. Rose returns the favor and starts licking Michaels blood. Michaels is actually really great throwing loopy jabs only to get bit on the cut by Rose who then spits the blood into the crowd. Michaels is a fucking mess and they just run back and fourth grating Shawn's face against the steel. Michaels takes a wild back body drop and then gets crotched on the top rope. Somers and Shawn brawling on the mat was awesome and felt super intense. Shawn hits a great kneelift and then runs to make the tag. Crazy stuff abounds as Rose tries to crawl out and ends up taking a wild bump down. Jannetty hits a diving splash for the pin. This is an awesome blood bath and will probably contend for number one on a lot ballots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Like I said, I didn't like it nearly as much on subsequent viewings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 And like I said, I prefer your original thoughts... and the thoughts of Johnny P, Phil, Sorrow and Kris. It's ok you don't like the match now. No biggie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I loved the first cage match because it was totally based on the emotions the feud is based on. The Rockers run into the cage to get their hands on these two cheating fuckers and unleash all their frustration, and Rose and Somers have nowhere to run thanks to the cage. THEN in the next cage match, Rose and Somers try to hold the door closed as the Rockers are trying to enter, because the last time, they got their asses kicked when the Rockers rushed into the cage. This time, they'll try to hold them back to "fuck with the Rockers game plan". The entire feud is chapters of a great story. To me, there's no or next to no logical progression on the front end from the first cage match to the second. It's not like they do call back spots. They do the SAME spots. It was them running basically the same match in two different towns like you'd see between Philly and Boston in the WWF at the time. What they did was tweak and tighten the match between the first and the second. There are differences but they're on the back end of the match, fixing the mistakes in the first match, not the front end having one lead storyline-wise to the other. It's the same match, just made a many times better. Edit: I might be wrong but obviously I feel pretty strongly. According to Wiki Doug Somers is 62 years old. If anyone wants to find him and ask him, I'd be open to what he said. Shawn or Marty less so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 According to Wiki Doug Somers is 62 years old. If anyone wants to find him and ask him, I'd be open to what he said. Shawn or Marty less so.I'd imagine they don't even remember anything about the matches, besides that they happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny P Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I'd only like to add that I liked the first cage match when watching in a group, probably liked the second one less BECAUSE i was watching it the same night and had just liked the first (very similar) match, which to me felt more intense and visceral, and that I haven't deeply analyzed any of this (or any matches post the third disc) to any real degree. If I do have a ballot (I was giving up until Will said I'd have time post April 20th). I'll probably be my usual obsessive self and go back and watch w/ sound, alone, taking notes. The weird trade off is that I didn't really enjoy a ton watching the first three disks alone much, and REALLY had fun watching on the listening party w/ friends. However, I can't give any true analysis that way, and the matches are sometimes a blur a week later (no super strong impressions). It's a weird trade off. I want to enjoy wrestling, and I sometimes over analyze it. But when I don't do any analysis, nothing sticks past the enjoyment of several moves/sequences, and who doesn't want to enjoy something you're giving up time to do. So I'm personally looking for that balance of critical thinking and actually having fun with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 It's a tough balance and I absolutely appreciate that and I think that, is in some ways, the main counterpoint to these podcasts. I think Dylan and I especially have raised that point. It's not necessarily that one way is better than another and Will claims the opposite of what you just claimed, Johnny, for the most part. And with him that may be true. I just think that some matches will do better in this setting than others and some matches will do better in the manner you just discussed. And some will do well in both but for completely different reasons. I'll say this. I usually watch most of this stuff while on the exercise bike, so I'm a captive audience and I wouldn't necessarily be using that time to do anything else. I'd be biking anyway and if not watching these I'd be watching something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted April 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Yeah, for me the difference is that I don' t think these matches need over-analyzing. I commit to the process, if I feel I missed something, I can go back and watch it. However, I am confident enough in my evaluation of matches that I don't feel the need to watch the set 2-3-4 times before I submit a ballot. For the record, this was the 2nd time I watched both cage matches. My opinion didn't change. In fact, my opinion hasn't changed on review of any of the matches I took part in the nominating process. The 2nd viewing has only reinforced most of my positions. You can have fun AND be critical at the same time when doing these podcasts. It isn't all meth jokes and sound effects. Phil Schneider and I have been synching up for years. Now, the only difference is I am bringing it to a podcast (not the first one to do it either). If Phil writes a review after synching up, nobody questions if he was paying attention to the match or being critical in his analysis. We crack jokes, mark out, do play by play and the occasional sound effect comes through. The matches stand and fall on their own either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny P Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 I do want to make clear that I think Will's process is cool too, and obviously I've enjoyed in partaking. Everybody seems to have a different process, and I think the middle is a good medium (which is to say I couldn't feel totally informed doing it Will's way, but I worry about over analysis on the boards and from nitpicking to hard by yourself/looking for negatives). Given that you guys do argue this stuff here and in the DVDVR message board threads anyway, and HAVE already watched a bunch of these matches, I WOULD really love to hear Matt D and Dylan on one of these podcasts w/ Will. I think both of your reactions, insights, leanings, and opinions on some of these matches you have strong feelings on would be awesome to hear. I totally understand not wanting to watch the whole set like that, or perhaps worrying about opinions being swayed by strong voices in a group conversation, but we run the risk of that here on the boards too (which is why I don't read a thread until AFTER a match is watched). I just think you both are intelligent (Dylan, for instance, is a friend who I trusted enough to consult on my new project) and could add good counterpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 And like I said, I prefer your original thoughts... and the thoughts of Johnny P, Phil, Sorrow and Kris. It's ok you don't like the match now. No biggie. I invite you to find the location in this thread, the DVDVR or thread or any personal communication I've had with you where I said anything close to this. I do like the match as I've said multiple places. But I like it less with each viewing and I think it is easily the most flawed match of the feud. It will be behind the title change, the other cage, the 8/86 match and both of the six-mans on my ballot. It will be ahead of the Wrestlerock match because that match - while entertaining - is really just the front end of a good match that doesn't get the time to really "finish." It will also very likely finish ahead of Buddy v. Marty. Very strong possibility it will be in my top fifty. Top thirty? I kind of doubt it. But at no point have I said I "don't like the match now." That's pure fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 According to Wiki Doug Somers is 62 years old. If anyone wants to find him and ask him, I'd be open to what he said. Shawn or Marty less so.I'd imagine they don't even remember anything about the matches, besides that they happened. Buddy is dead now, but he's talked in great detail about the matches in public forums more than once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 I do want to make clear that I think Will's process is cool too, and obviously I've enjoyed in partaking. Everybody seems to have a different process, and I think the middle is a good medium (which is to say I couldn't feel totally informed doing it Will's way, but I worry about over analysis on the boards and from nitpicking to hard by yourself/looking for negatives). Given that you guys do argue this stuff here and in the DVDVR message board threads anyway, and HAVE already watched a bunch of these matches, I WOULD really love to hear Matt D and Dylan on one of these podcasts w/ Will. I think both of your reactions, insights, leanings, and opinions on some of these matches you have strong feelings on would be awesome to hear. I totally understand not wanting to watch the whole set like that, or perhaps worrying about opinions being swayed by strong voices in a group conversation, but we run the risk of that here on the boards too (which is why I don't read a thread until AFTER a match is watched). I just think you both are intelligent (Dylan, for instance, is a friend who I trusted enough to consult on my new project) and could add good counterpoints. There are a multitude of reasons I don't think the synch ups are for me, some of which are pure logistics (nine out of ten times I get banned to the great outdoors during podcasts because as Johnny, Dave, Will and others know I am a loud, obnoxious, motherfucker on the phone). But in no way do I think it is innately "wrong" to watch wrestling that way or even to construct your ballot solely on how you felt watching the match while on the phone with others. I do not feel in any way that is constructive for me, but I don't think it's some horrible, awful thing with no value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 How in the hell do some of you have time to watch these sets multiple times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Yeah, for me the difference is that I don' t think these matches need over-analyzing. I commit to the process, if I feel I missed something, I can go back and watch it. However, I am confident enough in my evaluation of matches that I don't feel the need to watch the set 2-3-4 times before I submit a ballot. For the record, this was the 2nd time I watched both cage matches. My opinion didn't change. In fact, my opinion hasn't changed on review of any of the matches I took part in the nominating process. http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/topic/6...on-von-raschke/ Thread includes your public apology for the match. This was your original review Freebirds vs. Crusher & Baron Von Rashke - The Birds were so good in this bumping and selling huge for these two slow, old farts. I think the High Flyers match may have been better but this was more fun to watch. Baron makes an unlikely Face in Peril but it worked, especially knowing that the Birds were going to put Crusher over big on the hot tag. Speaking of Crusher, my God, he should have been stuck doing autograph siginings at this point. So, so bad. If the Flyers match goes on then this definitely goes on. It will be interesting to see how people compare the two. It's not glowing praise, but you felt the need to apologize for it and I think it would be fair to say that your opinion changed at least some. This isn't a gotcha post either. My point is that it's probable that this is going to happen to some degree with most people, especially if you are involved in a project like this. For example I liked Hansen v. Blackwell WAYYYYYYY better on rewatch than originally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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