What is world championship material?

[Dylan Waco]

Christian was effectively a t.v. champion.

 

To anarchist point(s) in recent years I think Christian has absolutely decimated Jericho as a worker and though its a more controversial assessment I guess I'd take him career v. career over Jericho too.

 

Also hard to see how Orton is viable if we are concerned about guys with shitty history drawing on top

[anarchistxx]

Also hard to see how Orton is viable if we are concerned about guys with shitty history drawing on top

I haven't seen any of the numbers, and didn't watch from 2006-2010 when Orton seemed to be on top. Wasn't that a down time for the company generally? Orton always seems over with the crowd, though that isn't always an indication of being a draw.

[Matt D]

Christian was effectively a t.v. champion.

 

To anarchist point(s) in recent years I think Christian has absolutely decimated Jericho as a worker and though its a more controversial assessment I guess I'd take him career v. career over Jericho too.

 

Also hard to see how Orton is viable if we are concerned about guys with shitty history drawing on top

Has a TV champ ever really anchored a TV show before?

 

The closest I can think of is Austin who would have defenses pretty much every week for the second half of 91, usually on multiple of the WCW shows.

 

I really see Christian on ECW as the ace of one of the smaller territories in 1980 or whatever.

[Dylan Waco]

Smaller territories ran there own shows. ECW did not.

[Jimmy Redman]

My point in bringing up ratings is that his ECW ace run was mentioned as seemingly a point in his favour, when in reality while his work during that run was awesome, it didn't mean anything to the company, nor has he ever when put in a featured position since 2009. There is no evidence that the fans see him as a top guy, or that he is over beyond the level of his push, or that there is any reason why WWE should use him as a main eventer.

 

Christian is right where he should be. Upper midcard veteran who is credible against top guys and able to put anyone over who needs putting over. He's "championship material" in terms of the World Title, because that belt it right where he is. But he isnt in the sense that makes him a real main eventer. Not everyone who's work we like is a WWE main eventer.

[S.L.L.]

When has he ever got a pop comparable to Steve Austin in his peak, or The Rock in 2000, or Hogan in the 80s, or even CM Punk at MITB11 or Dolph Ziggler when he cashed in this year? Matt D is arguing this is one of the greatest babyfaces in this history of the company. No fucking way.

I am not Matt D. I am not arguing these things.

 

I said....

 

"Christian can't connect with an audience" is a really odd claim presumably made by people with short memories. Christian is a guy who's proven capable of getting huge reactions from the crowd, moreso than the vast majority of guys on the current roster. He's not getting that currently, probably on account of spending the last few years either off TV or suffering through shitty booking. He's a guy who needs to be rehabbed if you want to get the full value of him. And I can see people saying they personally don't like his look or whatever, but when you project that claim onto the masses, it gets slapped down by reality. It's not really a point up for debate.

Argument isn't that he gets Hogan/Austin/Rock reactions. That's stupid. Even Matt D isn't arguing that. Hell, I'm not even arguing that he should be a world champion right now. He clearly doesn't fit in that picture. Argument is that Christian is a guy who historically gets strong reactions from the crowd that suggest his popularity could be capitalized on. That popularity has since waned, but if they really committed to him, no reason to believe it's not still possible. Hogan/Austin/Rock? Probably not. Ziggler winning the Title? Entirely possible.

 

Point me to an incredible pop he has ever got?

Nothing life-changing. He is a guy who the crowd has been consistently strongly behind, moreso than most. No reason to think you can't build that into something more. But if you want to measure by incredible pops for individual moments, nothing really comes to mind.

 

Sure he was getting good reactions week on week, but so was somebody like Rikishi and nobody is calling him an amazing babyface.

Also no reason to think Rikishi couldn't have been built into an even bigger babyface if they wanted to given how over he was, and Christian doesn't have to overcome a comedy gimmick to be taken seriously in that spot, either.

 

I'm not saying he can't connect with an audience, just not on the level of the truly top guys.

He's never been a truly top guy in WWE. I don't know what his failure to do a thing that he was never in a position to do proves.

 

He belongs as an upper mid card enhancement talent

So...you agree that he's in the right position right now?

 

Yeah, funny thing about this "is Christian world champion material" issue...he's not going for a world championship. He's going for the World Championship, but I thought it was pretty clear to everyone by this point that the World Championship is not a world championship. It's a secondary title for upper midcarders and main eventers with nothing else to do. Even if you don't believe that Christian is or ever has been capable of being a main eventer...what does that have to do with the current situation?

 

Point me to an amazing promo this guy has done?

He's never given a "Hard Times" level promo. He's never been booked to give a "Hard Times" level promo.

 

Or a massive, defining match that didn't involve loads of others guys and a ton of props?

No, because he was never booked in a massive, defining match that didn't involve loads of others guys and a ton of props.

 

I can't help but notice your argument seems to be "Christian can't be a main event star because he's never been a main event star". Good thing we didn't have this argument a year ago or I guess Daniel Bryan would be fucked.

 

WWEs own management reportedly hate his look as well.

And Lord knows they're right about everything!

 

Not that that really matters, but my argument was that he is indistinguishable; a champion should have a distinct style and look, and Christian doesn't.

Who are the other WWE wrestlers who look like Christian?

 

He doesn't even have a personality to speak of, other than being a normal guy and a bit of a smart arse or whatever.

Here's me from a few years ago disagreeing with you:

 

"I had spent a few years writing about how the WWE's biggest problem (besides their campaign to kill off everyone who ever works for them) was their complete absence of an identity because they had become so squeamish about letting any one wrestler or group of wrestlers become the face of the brand that the closest thing they had to a personality was the brand itself, which is just "a place where wrestling happens". In 2009, Christian actually gave ECW an identity, specifically that of undersized, outmatched guy who isn't afraid to mouth off to his bigger, stronger rivals and won't back down when they confront him. That felt like a really appropriate identity for ECW, both historically (indy fed that tried to forcibly wedge themselves into the major leagues) and currently (the third brand, essentially a glorified developmental, but with a roster that refused to be overlooked), and Christian was masterful at working it in and out of the ring. It went a long way in making ECW the most watchable wrestling show out there and making a lot of the other guys on the brand seem really vital in a way they wouldn't have otherwise"

 

Has there even been any proof of him as a draw?

Has there ever been any proof of Christian eating at Denny's? Because if he's never eaten at Denny's before, clearly it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to EVER eat at Denny's. He'd probably spontaneously combust the second he walked in the door. Don't you tell me there's a first time for everything! We have reached the great plateau of history! The status quo is eternal!

[Death From Above]

Why do people talk about WWECW like it was a company?

 

Christian was effectively a t.v. champion.

This is pretty much it.

[Loss]

In fairness to anarchist, I will say I think the specific point that led him to that long post was that Christian is one of the best babyfaces in company history. I'm too lazy to look on the first page and see who said that, but responses comparing him to Austin and Hogan based on that aren't off the mark.

[Matt D]

Why do people talk about WWECW like it was a company?

 

Christian was effectively a t.v. champion.

This is pretty much it.

 

I'm going to try to tackle exactly what WWECW was in its last year and why it was so unique in the WWECW note later. No reason to bog this down here.

[S.L.L.]

In fairness to anarchist, I will say I think the specific point that led him to that long post was that Christian is one of the best babyfaces in company history. I'm too lazy to look on the first page and see who said that, but responses comparing him to Austin and Hogan based on that aren't off the mark.

It was Matt D. I am not Matt D. It's stupid to respond to my arguments by responding to Matt D's arguments. Is that something that really needs to be explained?

 

I don't think Christian is one of the best babyfaces in company history. Best working babyfaces? Possibly. But as an overall package, no, I don't think so. Hell, I'm not even arguing he's world title - as in WWE Title - material. If I had my way, he'd still be king of ECW. I thought that was the perfect spot for him.

 

BUT....

 

"Christian can't connect with an audience" is a really odd claim presumably made by people with short memories. Christian is a guy who's proven capable of getting huge reactions from the crowd, moreso than the vast majority of guys on the current roster. He's not getting that currently, probably on account of spending the last few years either off TV or suffering through shitty booking. He's a guy who needs to be rehabbed if you want to get the full value of him. And I can see people saying they personally don't like his look or whatever, but when you project that claim onto the masses, it gets slapped down by reality. It's not really a point up for debate.

Argument is that Christian is a guy who historically gets strong reactions from the crowd that suggest his popularity could be capitalized on. That popularity has since waned, but if they really committed to him, no reason to believe it's not still possible. Hogan/Austin/Rock? Probably not. Ziggler winning the Title? Entirely possible.

The idea that Christian lacks the charisma or personality or connection to the crowd to ever even potentially succeed in a theoretical main event run flies in the face of all available evidence and is made by people who either let their own hangups with the guy cloud their objectivity, or by people who are as dull, lazy, and unimaginative as WWE Creative themselves.

 

Should Christian win the WWE Title tomorrow? Of course not.

 

Should Christian ever win the WWE Title? How should I know? He's never been tested on that level.

 

Is he so lacking as a potential star that he's clearly unworthy of ever receiving such testing from the company? No, and I'm really hard-pressed to think of a non-stupid reason to believe otherwise.

[Matt D]

I suppose I should say something less flippant. Mainly it's that I probably was thinking primarily about a "working babyface," though certainly, he had a special kind of momentum in 2011, to the point where it was kind of funny to see Jim Ross in his blog trying to deal with the backlash that happened when he lost the belt so quickly and how thoroughly WWE didn't realize that people wanted to cheer him.

 

To me, though, it's really about the 2009 run, and really about his in-ring work from April 09 to April 10 or what not and the way he was able to engage and draw in the crowd when he was really given so little to work with, being on what was presented, more or less, as a throw-away show often bumped from the PPVs and PPV time, working a variety of opponents, faces, heels, green, experienced, and a variety of styles, and being able to build from one match to the next.

 

I honestly think he connected well with the audience too, the audience at that point being a lot of kids that would get behind him and a lot of older fans who a) had seen him develop and B> who shared his "fan" background.

 

What he did that I was always most impressed by out of the ring was the little hand over the eyes sign-spotting and pointing thing which rewarded fans for bringing signs of his and seemed pretty well received.

 

So part of it is that I think he was really good in his role and his role was basically a TV show Ace for something that was left alone by the rest of the company and really in its own self-contained universe give or take recap packages. Part of it is that I don't think there were a heck of a lot of guys in WWE history that have been put in that role, at least not in the modern era.

 

There's a lot of talk about what opportunities he didn't have and what we don't know, but as a performer and on a subjective level, he performed exceptionally well in this one opportunity which very few people have had in the history of the company.

[anarchistxx]

Should Christian ever win the WWE Title? How should I know? He's never been tested on that level.

Well fuck, you could argue that about anyone.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't disagree much at all with Matt's post above, but it's worth noting that ECW was doing similar things in 08 and even in his best year, I don't think he was the best in ring babyface in the company (Rey)

[S.L.L.]

I suppose I should say something less flippant. Mainly it's that I probably was thinking primarily about a "working babyface," though certainly, he had a special kind of momentum in 2011, to the point where it was kind of funny to see Jim Ross in his blog trying to deal with the backlash that happened when he lost the belt so quickly and how thoroughly WWE didn't realize that people wanted to cheer him.

 

To me, though, it's really about the 2009 run, and really about his in-ring work from April 09 to April 10 or what not and the way he was able to engage and draw in the crowd when he was really given so little to work with, being on what was presented, more or less, as a throw-away show often bumped from the PPVs and PPV time, working a variety of opponents, faces, heels, green, experienced, and a variety of styles, and being able to build from one match to the next.

I would also point to large parts of his '04/'05 run, where he was being pushed as the sleazy heel anarchistxx suggested he should be, with the announcers really pushing the "Creepy Little Bastard"/"CLB" thing to the crowd, and fans routinely rejecting it and giving him babyface reactions. That doesn't really happen to people fans don't want to invest in.

[Matt D]

I don't disagree much at all with Matt's post above, but it's worth noting that ECW was doing similar things in 08 and even in his best year, I don't think he was the best in ring babyface in the company (Rey)

That's fair. It's also a little bit misleading since Rey-Christian, giving the performance that they gave that year, might actually be 1-2 in a number of other years. I guess a bigger question, since I haven't seen as much of it, is how good Matt Hardy was in that role in 2008?

[Dylan Waco]

Pretty great

[Matt D]

So in the build up to Summerslam, Christian has gone over ADR twice. I know WWE loves putting guys over in non-title matches to build to contending for a title (where they usually lose) but I can't remember a guy ever going over twice in the build. I actually think looking at his build to the title is kind of interesting, especially contrasting it to what they did with, let's say Swagger who got built up very quickly as well earlier in the year.

 

I don't have time now but I want to break it down later.