Steve Yohe's Top 100 Project

[Dylan Waco]

Dylan, any particular reason why the NWA 70s champs are so high and Backlund so low on your list?

 

Just curious as to why you think Dory Funk Jr is #69 places above Backlund in the overall scheme of wrestling history? Not saying it is wrong or that I disagree, but that I think it would be interesting to flesh out your thinking behind that when you've got Bruno at #12. I've just noted you've got those 70s NWA champs over Bockwinkel as well. And Jumbo.

 

Did Dory vs. Jack Brisco really draw well enough to put them over these sorts of company lynchpins? On the face of it, I'd have thought a guy like Fred Blassie would have been a bigger draw than Dory Jr. Mil Mascaras was probably a bigger star. John Cena definitely is. I'd have thought Dick the Bruiser was.

 

Not having a go in any way, just interested in your criteria and the facts on which you are basing that. My guess without any real investigation is that in each of their respective runs as NWA champ, Dory and Brisco probably didn't draw as much the five names I've picked out there. That's making the prestige of being the NWA champ and working the champ's schedule do a lot of work. Or are you also factoring in workrate?

This is a good question.

 

Backlund is hurt in my eyes by the fact that he was never a star of any note without the WWWF title.

 

He wasn't much of a star before holding the belt.

 

He wasn't really in demand after losing the belt, and in fact had no real value at all to the few promoters who used him.

 

That bothers me. Not enough to completely knock him off my list, because he headlined too many huge shows. But in a comparison to Dory Funk Jr. (who I like much less in the ring for the record), he wasn't the degree of international star, he wasn't a star anywhere near as many places, and he wasn't a star for anywhere near as long. Also Dory was a big draw as champion.

[jdw]

As Dylan says, strategic balloting is common in all sorts of polls. One thing that likely kept it to a minimum here was:

 

* public ballots

* limited number of voters

 

Anyone can be an ass, but when it's public and only 26 ballots to sift through, it discourages people from doing it. Easy to find things like someone voting Lou at #99 to help your #1 Londos, and since it's public pretty much exposes that voter.

 

* not likely a group to do it

 

I think that Bias is far more likely and common that Strategic Balloting. You look over the list of voters, and it doesn't as a group of people who would or could strategically vote in a way to massively impact the results. Dylan and Kris have the minds to know how balloting works, but they're not the type to do it to massively impact the result. Dave? Despite handling ballots every year, I don't think he could work out strat balloting... nor the type who would given the poll.

 

Why the results are the way they are? Far more due to Bias. People like certain wrestlers and certain eras more than others.

[Slasher]

I can't take anyone's list that leaves out Bret Hart. Don't care where he places, as opinions vary but he needs to be there SOMEWHERE.

 

Also, are we ignoring Chris Benoit completely due to his actions or do people really think him not as good? (edit- nevermind, found him)

Make an argument for Bret.

 

My rough draft had over 400 names on it and Bret was one of them. But as I was going through the list pairing it down, guys I had assumed would be locks or have strong chances of making the list starting falling off early.

 

When I look at Bret I see a guy who was the ace of a company doing okay not great. Sometimes things were pretty bad under his watch, but he had some good gates and runs. He was never a massive draw. Never even really a "very good" draw. He had about seven years as a top star in wrestling, but a couple of those years were in free falling WCW, and another chunk of time was on the shelf in 1996. Actually Bret's peak as a star closely coincides with the low point of U.S. based wrestling in the modern era (not his fault, but pretty hard to argue against). In his pre-prime he was in a tag team that I don't rate all that high, and which no one thinks was a draw and was one of a few guys consistently booked on top in Stampede, a promotion that was less successful than the often dismissed Portland.

 

To me the idea that Bret is a "gimme" for a list like this is silly. What on earth did he ever do to be an obvious pick for something like this? I certainly could see him on the list. He's not a bad pick. But an obvious "he has to be on" type of guy? Why?

 

I actually think Bret ended up finishing comically high on the list when you actually look at his career.

 

I do think his placement on the original list (44 or something) was a bit too high, but it is hard for me to make a list of the 100 best wrestlers in history and not see Bret placed SOMEWHERE in there. He was consistently considered one of the best technicians in WWE history and he certainly had a run on top and was a key player when the WWE turned the corner after the WWE New Generation thing. A big part I am willing to admit though is I've never really bothered to take a look at names that doesn't register in the era in which I watched, or near it. So guys like Farmer Burns, Yvon Robert, etc. doesn't grade at all with me, but I am willing to accept that it is my problem not you guys'.

[Dylan Waco]

Just a correction to what John wrote, ballots weren't public. Lots of people did publicly post there ballots but it wasn't a requirement. We still don't know who left Hogan off their ballot, and probably never will

[jdw]

Oh... I suspect I'll know who left Hogan off the ballot.

 

John

[jdw]

As an addition, I believe that all of the ballots are going to be published in something. I think Steve got that across to people.

[shoe]

I honestly think they were strategic votes. It's possible someone blanked on someone as Yohe had a strict "once your vote is in that's it" policy and didn't allow for people to correct errors. Still I suspect these were people leaving people off of lists because they feared they would rate higher than they "deserved."

 

 

I've heard people say the same thing when voting in the DVDVR 80's ballots. Who gives this person the right to manipulate data to get a more favorable outcome that they want to see.

[jdw]

On the Backlund-Dory, I tend to agree with Dylan. I prefer to watch Bob, don't care to watch Dory much anymore, but I'd have Dory ahead of him.

 

John

[jdw]

I've heard people say the same thing when voting in the DVDVR 80's ballots. Who gives this person the right to manipulate data to get a more favorable outcome that they want to see.

Human nature.

[shoe]

LOL. I get that. It's funny that because someone is doing it, their might be 4 more people doing it in the opposite direction. In the grand scheme of things are you going to remember sandbagging El Santo into 11th.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, was Dory a bigger draw / star than Jumbo, Bock, Dick the Bruiser and Blassie in your view?

[Dylan Waco]

He was a draw more places than any of them. All of those guys had really hot peaks in various places. Of those I actually think you could argue that Bock was the "least" as a true drawing card, though that's not something I'm completely fixed in thinking.

 

Dory was considered a very strong drawing card as NWA champion, to the point where even Dory critics are often amazed by his record on top. Some of this is attributed to the way Terry worked as a front end "test" opponent at times to heat things up.

[JerryvonKramer]

Cheers Dylan. I think you're right by the way, it tallies with everything I've read and heard about that period, just thought it was worth fleshing out.

 

Also, for what it's worth, I've never heard a single worker shit on Dory ever. Have you? He seems to have maximum respect in the industry. While that shouldn't be leant on too much, it is actually quite rare if you think about it.

[shoe]

Cheers Dylan. I think you're right by the way, it tallies with everything I've read and heard about that period, just thought it was worth fleshing out.

 

Also, for what it's worth, I've never heard a single worker shit on Dory ever. Have you? He seems to have maximum respect in the industry. While that shouldn't be leant on too much, it is actually quite rare if you think about it.

 

Jack Brisco does a little. Feels Dory was playing injured when it was time to do business for him.

[NintendoLogic]

I've heard people say the same thing when voting in the DVDVR 80's ballots. Who gives this person the right to manipulate data to get a more favorable outcome that they want to see.

Human nature.

 

Which is why public ballots should be mandatory for things like this-to disincentivize that kind of behavior. If you're unwilling or unable to defend your selections (or non-selections), you have no business having a ballot.

[JerryvonKramer]

I may watch that NWA doc the guy who did the Crockett Good Old Days one made tonight.

 

Dylan, any info on Farmer Burns?

[Dylan Waco]

Cliff notes and not terribly complete but...

 

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/burnsindex.htm

[KrisZ]

IMO Backlund was a bigger "star" than Dory because Bob was the main guy in the biggest markets for 6 years. That's a long run of working on top in New York City, Philly, Boston, DC, & Baltimore and I'm sure if you ask most guys that watched wrestling currently between 35-50 if they knew the names of Backlund or Dory...they would know Backlund.

 

Sure Dory was NWA champ for 4 years and went everywhere but I don't know if his penetration was as strong as Bob.

[Dylan Waco]

I have no clue if Dory's penetration was as big as Bob, but I would guess being in the magazines and working everywhere on earth in the main events, would give him a solid case.

 

More to the point, I'm not a huge fan of that line of argument in general as the endgame of that approach makes Brutus Beefcake a bigger "star" than Yvon Robert.

[KrisZ]

That's the thing about this project is Yohe based this on being a "star" and not about who was the best worker or actual performer.

 

Tiger Jeet Singh was a horrible worker and not very good as a performer but he was a huge "star" in Japan.

 

It's easier to compare Backlund & Dory than say Beefcake or Robert because they were direct peers but when push comes to shove Beefcake is on a higher tier of the "star" list than many many many other better performers of his era.

[jdw]

LOL. I get that. It's funny that because someone is doing it, their might be 4 more people doing it in the opposite direction. In the grand scheme of things are you going to remember sandbagging El Santo into 11th.

Lots of guys got left off ballots, including pretty much everyone from #10 on down:

 

3- Hulk Hogan 2318 25 2

7-Ric Flair 2225 25 1

10- Buddy Rogers 2102 25

11-El Santo 2091 23 1

12-Antonio Inoki 1987 24

13- Steve Austin 1975 23

14-Joe Stecher 1929 24

15-Shohei Baba 1801 22

16-Gorgeous George 1770 23

17-Verne Gagne 1769 24

18-The Rock 1765 23

19-George Hackenschmidt 1725 24

20-Harley Race 1637 23

21-Antonino Rocca 1573 24

22-Nick Bockwinkel 1562 25

23-Dory Funk Jr 1487 24

24-Mil Mascaras 1481 23

25-Dusty Rhodes 1459 22

 

I'd say it was something different from sandbagging given the wide spectrum of wrestlers on the list above.

[Dylan Waco]

I understand what you are saying, but I think the term "star" is fluid to a degree. Honestly if star isn't fluid than Thesz has zero business winning, because not even his biggest fans would argue he was ever the star that Santo, Londos, Hogan, or even Austin was. Hell Thesz himself all but said he wasn't the star that Rogers was and Rogers was a peer.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think Dory and Backlund have quite a few interesting parallels:

 

- both quite young champs

- neither one had any charisma to speak of

- both booked in a way that highlighted legitness, both in terms of them as champ and of "the sport"

- both booked by promoters who really knew what they were doing

 

And this is perhaps the most pertinent one:

 

- both were champs at a time when business was hot

 

I don't want to say that "anyone" could have been NWA champ when Dory was and drew or that anyone could have been WWF champ and drew when Backlund was champ ... but I do think that neither of these are guys who were bringing extra people to the arena. Or to put in another way, I don't think they are the sorts of guys who'd pop a gate for you or help build up an audience in a town. They drew because they were champs. Their source of legitimacy was the belt itself and in turn they gave the belt a sense of legitimacy by being "no nonsense" kinda guys.

 

Tell me if that's too harsh an assessment. If so, why?

 

If not, then Dylan, doesn't this essentially boil down to saying that NWA champ > WWF champ? This is really where I was going with the Blassie and Dick the Bruiser questions.

 

It's that traveling star vs. territory lynchpin argument again.

 

This is why I mentioned you putting Bruno at #12. Is he there and Blassie much lower down because New York is just that much bigger and more important of a market than LA? Or is there more to it?

 

I have no clue if Dory's penetration was as big as Bob

[KrisZ]

I agree with the fluidity and that's why this project was fun to watch to see how voters determined who they thought were stars and their actual belief at what a star actually is.

 

Regarding Thesz....he was the NWA champ during the middle of the television boom of the early 50's when wrestling was up there with baseball, boxing, & horse racing as the major sports of the era.

 

Gorgeous George may have been the top star overall but Thesz was the contrast and right there behind him.

[ohtani's jacket]

How did Chicana not make a ballot even with Jose submitting a ton of luchadores' names?

 

McManus has become the token British pick for the television era with Pallo getting the rub by association. Better than no token pick, I suppose.

 

Jackie Sato and Chigusa Nagayo warrant more consideration for the top 100 from people.