Observer HoF

[Al]

This isn't the crossover-hope-for-success awards, this is about fuckin wrasslin and nothing else no matter how hard Meltzer tries to hitch his professional wrestling wagon to the MMA train.

 

MLB, NFL, NHL, and the NBA don't allow teams into their HOF. That would just make it easier for worthless guys to piggyback upon the actual HOFer guys.

The more useful model would be the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame, instead of any sports Hall. The Rock Hall of Fame requires a 25 year career for eligibility. That is pretty straightforward. It requires a wrestler to complete the vast majority of his career, and there is not much to add or detract from a legacy afterwards.

 

As for tag teams, groups like the Road Warriors are clearly deserving. There is a difference between a team of two wrestlers and a team of 25 players. If a tag team was a clear drawing card, or made a significant contribution to the sport, they deserve some consideration just like solo acts.

 

I agree with the MMA statements. MMA and pro wrestling are completely different areas.

[Guest Famous Mortimer]

But it's the subject of debate every year, and without any other contenders of any kind, is going to be the only show in town for a pretty long time.

 

I don't think having tag teams in is a bad thing, it's not like the teams that are in have one good member and one crappy drag-ass.

 

And merely being 35 is no sort of limit for HOF inclusion, given most guys don't make it to the top by that age. Ah well.

[Loss]

RE: active wrestlers

 

The only thing about not including active wrestlers is that there are definite HOF guys like Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan that are still active and having matches. Does that also extend to announcers like Jim Ross that are still active? Promoters like Vince McMahon and Antonio Inoki that are still active? Regarding tag teams, I can't see the case for not including them, especially in cases like the Road Warriors where they drew big money. The problem with tag teams is that there are too many deserving tag teams that aren't in. When Meltzer made the point recently that Miguel Perez and Antonio Rocca are the biggest drawing tag team ever, it makes me wonder why they aren't in as a team. Individuals who are in like Pat Patterson and Ray Stevens should probably be inducted for their work as a team as well.

 

I agree with the MMA comment though.

[Guest Sass]

RE: active wrestlers

 

The only thing about not including active wrestlers is that there are definite HOF guys like Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan that are still active and having matches. Does that also extend to announcers like Jim Ross that are still active? Promoters like Vince McMahon and Antonio Inoki that are still active?

Yes.

 

Until they are dead or retired from wrestling, they should not be eligible.

 

Giant Baba for instance would be eligible for the HOF but not Inoki (for now). So would Verne Gagne but not Eric Bischoff. Neither would Hogan, Flair, or Ross be eligible for the HOF until they're completely out of wrestling. Road agents included. A HOF in wrestling doesn't matter to those guys though. Getting paid by the carny owners at the end of the day is their top priority (and rightfully so, but it shouldn't be the end all or else wrestling will be filled with nothing but HHH's).

 

Regarding tag teams, I can't see the case for not including them, especially in cases like the Road Warriors where they drew big money. The problem with tag teams is that there are too many deserving tag teams that aren't in. When Meltzer made the point recently that Miguel Perez and Antonio Rocca are the biggest drawing tag team ever, it makes me wonder why they aren't in as a team. Individuals who are in like Pat Patterson and Ray Stevens should probably be inducted for their work as a team as well.

Tag teams should have a separate HOF then. Like I was insinuating, Hayes and Roberts are *not* HOFers on their own but they piggybacked their way into the HOF on Gordy's shoulders. I just think that's a weak deal where a couple choads who have no business sniffing a HOF can get in based on the merits of their tag team work with a more superior (singles) partner like Gordy.

 

The MVC are both HOFers.

 

2/3 of the Freebirds are not HOFers on their own.

 

I agree with the MMA comment though.

Yeah.

 

Meltzer just wants something to fall back on (MMA) in the event wrestling in North America does go under. He's just piggybacking into more money but at the expense of the readers who actually give a damn (like me) about a credible HOF without the dilluded aspects of it.

[sek69]

Tag teams should have a separate HOF then. Like I was insinuating, Hayes and Roberts are *not* HOFers on their own but they piggybacked their way into the HOF on Gordy's shoulders. I just think that's a weak deal where a couple choads who have no business sniffing a HOF can get in based on the merits of their tag team work with a more superior (singles) partner like Gordy. 

 

The MVC are both HOFers.   

 

2/3 of the Freebirds are not HOFers on their own.

 

That's kind of like saying the Beatles shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame because Ringo and George piggybacked in on John and Paul's shoulders.

 

If a tag team can draw huge, I don't see why they should be cordoned off into their own HOF because the whole sometimes (usually) is greater than the sum of its parts.

[Guest EastCoastJ]

Who exactly are these Meltzer stooges who cast the votes?

They aren't exactly all stooges. A large number of the voters are former wrestlers (who would keep to their own opinions rather than listening to Dave, with Flair and Bret Hart being suggested to be voters), current wrestlers, people in the business (Cornette etc), legitimate wrestling journalists (Mike Mooneyham, Alvarez, Marvez etc) and wrestling historians like Steve Yohe and Mike Tenay. It's hardly a bunch of people who vote in whatever way Dave tells them, some may be but it wouldn't be enough to just have people vote for who Dave tells them to.

 

It's definitely screwy that The Rock n' Roll Express are in but it's insane to say that more emphasis should be put on workrate. The second Curt Hennig or Owen Hart (RIP) go into a hall of fame, the second the floodgates of talented midcarders who never drew strongly but had good matches gets blown wide open and the HOF loses its legitimacy. Nothing about the career of either man says Hall of Fame. Hennig was great in the AWA and solid in the WWF, but that's really not enough.

 

I really have no idea why HHH being in is such a travesty. He was on top of WWE during the most profitable year in company history and for five years now has been the strongest card in WWE and one of the best drawing cards ever. He's amazing in the ring, great on the mic, and one of the most important American wrestlers of the last 25 years. Political bullshit doesn't matter, HHH deserves to be in. So what if he didn't put Booker T and RVD over, Hogan didn't put Hennig/Dibiase/Savage/Bad News/Bret Hart/Roddy Piper over but that doesn't make him any less deserving.

 

The HOF isn't perfect, but it's by far the best that there is and the panel of 100+ qualified voters makes it a pretty solid system.

[Loss]

Tag teams should have a separate HOF then. Like I was insinuating, Hayes and Roberts are *not* HOFers on their own but they piggybacked their way into the HOF on Gordy's shoulders. I just think that's a weak deal where a couple choads who have no business sniffing a HOF can get in based on the merits of their tag team work with a more superior (singles) partner like Gordy.

Hayes and Roberts are not HOFers on their own, but no one has argued that they are. It's the role of the Freebirds as a whole that got them inducted into the Hall of Fame. Hayes and Roberts as singles wrestlers haven't had HOF careers. But neither has Gordy, although he has a stronger case.

 

While there's no way of knowing for sure what goes through the mind of the average HOF voter, I don't see anyone voting for the 'Birds taking into account Gordy's runs in AJPW main events or his tag teams with Doc and Hansen. If you're looking at the success of the 'Birds, Michael Hayes was probably the most crucial member because he was the one who generated heat for the group. He was the most charismatic. He was the best talker. He's not a HOFer alone. The Freebirds, as a unit, are HOFers.

 

I can see the case for Roberts being a piggybacker, but some would argue that Roberts had an important role in the success of the group as well. He also had that tag team with Jerry Brown that was pretty big in the 1970s if you're looking at outside factors, which I'm not.

 

In fact, I think Hayes had *more* to do with the success of the Freebirds than the other two did. I'd hardly call Gordy someone who piggybacked his success, but it's clear that Gordy was the best worker of the group. But if you look at the big moments that define the Freebirds era, Hayes's fingerprints are all over them.

 

* He was the referee in the 12/25/82 cage match between Flair and Kerry that jumpstarted the Freebirds/VEs feud

 

* He co-headlined the big stadium show in late '83 against Kerry in the Loser Leaves Town match, a show that sold out Texas Stadium. Flair/David was on top, but the Freebirds were drawing big numbers on shows *without* Flair or Harley Race around as well, and Kerry/Hayes was the major selling point of the show

 

* He gave the group their rock and roll persona. Gordy and Roberts wouldn't have had that persona without him. It's because of Hayes that they were able to do things to make them stand out like use music in their ring entrances, which is a big, big deal today (honestly, that alone is probably enough to make them HOF-worthy considering the major impact that's had on wrestling not just nationally, but internationally and the role music has played in getting God knows how many wrestlers over the last 20-25 years over)

 

I do agree with those who say that the Freebirds' induction leads to questions about other stables being inducted in the HOF, but the 'Birds were together in their original form for longer than the Horsemen or the NWO were. And while I don't think the Horsemen as a unit should be included because of the near-constant revolving door, I do support inducting the NWO as a unit (Hogan, Hall, Nash) into the Hall of Fame.

 

Maybe they'll be nominated next year.

[Loss]

I think the main argument against HHH in the HOF is that he's done far more harm than good. Many people (self included) think he's directly responsible for the decline of the wrestling boom.

[Mad Dog]

He was on top of WWE during the most profitable year in company history and for five years now has been the strongest card in WWE and one of the best drawing cards ever.

The Rock was the main man during that year. HHH since 2002 was consistenly not drawn any money whatsoever. Sting has a better argument for being in than HHH does.

 

And Kurt Angle being in is worse than HHH. There's no way to justify Angle on any level. He's never drawn, he's only worked one style and he's never been the best worker on the roster.

[Al]

I think the main argument against HHH in the HOF is that he's done far more harm than good. Many people (self included) think he's directly responsible for the decline of the wrestling boom.

I'm not going to get dragged in to a larger argument, but I think this is false. Wrestling's three biggest drawing cards (Goldberg, Steve Austin and the Rock) stopped wrestling full time. Could anything HHH does or has done honestly do more harm than a widespread loss of top talent?

[Guest MJHimJfadeaway23]

I think the main argument against HHH in the HOF is that he's done far more harm than good. Many people (self included) think he's directly responsible for the decline of the wrestling boom.

I'm not going to get dragged in to a larger argument, but I think this is false. Wrestling's three biggest drawing cards (Goldberg, Steve Austin and the Rock) stopped wrestling full time. Could anything HHH does or has done honestly do more harm than a widespread loss of top talent?

But there have been various wrestlers who could have filled in those positions (RVD, Jericho for starters) and did exceptionally well. There was a point when both RVD and Jericho could've both reasonable been two of the top draws in WWE history given the opportunity. There's no hard evidence to quantify my statement, but if you watched the shows they were by far the most over guys and were getting great ratings.

[Loss]

I would agree with that. Had Jericho gone over HHH at Fully Loaded 2000 and went on to face Rock at Summerslam in the main event and take the title, and later been revealed to be the driver who ran over Steve Austin resulting in him turning heel, he would have been a huge star and met his potential. Any footage from that time shows him to be far and away the most over non-main eventer on the roster, and they should have pushed him when they had the chance. 2001 was okay, but the magic was gone in many ways because they waited too long.

 

They tried to elevate Kurt Angle in 2000 when that should have been Jericho's year. They tried to elevate Chris Jericho in 2001 when that should have been Rob Van Dam's year. They tried to elevate Brock Lesnar in 2002 when that should have been Booker T's year, with Brock becoming a top guy in 2003. Eddy should have been the new top guy in 2004. Had they followed that plan, losing Austin and Rock wouldn't have killed them as much as it did.

 

Keep in mind that from September 1999-February 2000, they lost Steve Austin, the Undertaker and Mick Foley, which would have killed business even 12 months earlier, but because they had Rock ready and were pushing HHH hard, they sustained and even expanded on the base they already have. They also benefitted in 2000 by having a half dozen really hot midcard-upper midcard acts who all could have entered the main event scene at any time. It's scary to think about how many guys were climbing the ladder and getting over huge in 2000, and where they all are now because of bad booking. But in 2000, they had Rock as the top face, HHH as the top heel, Undertaker as the respected veteran, the Hardyz as the blowjob tag team with E & C as their foils and the Dudleyz there to appeal to the blood and guts hardcore crowd. Top to bottom, the card was a draw. It was also considered just a matter of when for when guys like Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Rikishi and Kurt Angle entered main events and stayed there. When the audience realized that wasn't going to happen, they gave up on all of them.

 

EDIT: Also, as hard as they've pushed Edge since then, I have to ask -- is he really any better off than he was teaming with Christian?

[Guest CanadianChick]

EDIT: Also, as hard as they've pushed Edge since then, I have to ask -- is he really any better off than he was teaming with Christian?

No, because he's still in midcard feuds right now too. Same with Christian, really. I guess WWE felt the novelty of tag wrestling wore off (in other words, they were too lazy to keep it fresh), so the two main teams from that era, for lack of a better term, broke up.

[Guest teke184]

EDIT: Also, as hard as they've pushed Edge since then, I have to ask -- is he really any better off than he was teaming with Christian?

No, because he's still in midcard feuds right now too. Same with Christian, really. I guess WWE felt the novelty of tag wrestling wore off (in other words, they were too lazy to keep it fresh), so the two main teams from that era, for lack of a better term, broke up.

The tag team problems go back to the Heymanesque booking of that division in 2000 and 2001...

 

They burned out all combinations of the Hardyz, Dudleyz, and Edge and Christian, Too Cool broke up when Brian Christopher got canned, etc.

 

 

They HAD a chance to liven things up with the new blood they brought in from WCW, but Palumbo, O'Haire, DDP, and Kanyon all got completely buried by Undertaker and Kane.

[Guest Sass]

Picking out the more talented musicians from a musical group like the Beatles for a HOF would be asinine. Music needs bands and musicians. Wrestling on the otherhand, does not need tag teams. It just needs wrestlers who can be *placed* into tag teams. I just feel that letting tag teams into a HOF with only singles workers would dillude a HOF. It would be like allowing MMA fighters into a wrestling HOF when they perform in different environment's.

 

The 1985 Bears team aren't in the HOF and that team is considered one of the best Defensive teams in NFL history. They only have a handful of bonafide HOFers though and those guys (most of the deserving ones anyway) have made it into the NFL HOF. As a unit, that team was one of the best. But the NFL HOF is designed to show off the best of the best as individuals, not teams.

 

Antonio Inoki & Giant Baba, as a tag team, are bonafide tag team HOF material along with each one being singles HOF material.

 

Bob Backlund & Pedro Morales, as a tag team, are not tag team HOF material but they are singles HOF material.

 

A singles HOF and a tag team HOF could work. Just separate the two and nothing will be dilluded.

[Al]

But what about the Road Warriors? Their impact on wrestling is clear, they are not HOFers on their own, but they are clearly deserving as a team.

[Guest Sass]

They're eligible for the tag team HOF but not the singles HOF then.

[Loss]

Can separate be equal? Especially when the Roadies were often a bigger drawing card than the top babyfaces of their era (Sting, Luger, Windham, Garvin)?

[Guest DylanWaco]

Was there ever a good drawing WCW face until Goldberg?

[Loss]

Depends on what time frame you're considering "WCW".

 

1989 had Ric Flair as a good draw. 1996-1997 had Sting, Luger, Piper and Savage as babyface draws who drew well in a hot period for business. If you're looking at the Crockett days, there's Dusty, the Road Warriors and the Rock & Rolls in 1985-1986.

[Guest Sass]

Can separate be equal?

No, not in this case.

 

Especially when the Roadies were often a bigger drawing card than the top babyfaces of their era (Sting, Luger, Windham, Garvin)?

You forgot Hulk Hogan.

[Guest Famous Mortimer]

I don't really see what the problem is. When you've got a team like the Rock n Rolls, who did great business wherever they were, were most definitely not mid-carders, stayed together for way more than 5 years and could both work like mad, what's the point of ghetto-ising them with a tag team HOF? They're every bit as deserving as some of the crap that's in the HOF at the moment.

[Guest Sass]

Forget the WON HOF and start over I say. The Rock n' Rolls are also still unretired so they're not eligible...or at least they shouldn't be. I heard they broke up but who knows...

 

Everyone, name 20 tag teams who you think are HOF worthy. Yes, 20.

[Al]

Everyone, name 20 tag teams who you think are HOF worthy. Yes, 20.

What's the point? There aren't 20 teams that deserve Hall status. That would seem to make a Tag only HOF unviable. It doesn't really prove their lack of qualification.

 

Right now there are four tag teams in the Hall. The Dusek Family, the Kangaroos, the Freebirds, and the Road Warriors. Given the various issues of the Observer Hall, are the tag teams really hurting their credibility in any way? I can't imagine anything MORE ridiculous than having a separate Tag Team Hall of Fame listing four teams. It's entirely useless. We are not honoring Hawk and Animal, or Terry Gordy and Michael Hayes, or Roy Heffernan and Al Costello as separate individuals. We are honoring TEAMS. But I don't think I'm going to change your mind, and I'm probably wasting my time.

[sek69]

1. Fabulous Kangaroos

2. Bruiser and Crusher

3. Rock n Rolls

4. Fabulous Ones

5. Midnight Express (you could argue both versions seperate, but I won't)

6. Fantastics

7. Freebirds

8. Von Erichs (David, Kevin, Kerry)

9. Road Warriors

10. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard

11. Arn and Ole Anderson

12. Gene and Ole Anderson

13. Dudley Boys

14. Sheepherders

15. Wild Samoans

16. Hart Foundation

17. Steiner Brothers

18. Eddy Guerrero and Art Barr

19. Doc and Gordy

20. Kawada and Taue

 

 

I'm sure I'm missing tons of 60s, 70s teams plus tons more international teams.