MIsawa / Tiger Mask II / Tenryu / Kawada AJPW Questions.

[Smack2k]

There NEEDS to be podcasts focusing ONLY on Puro in the 80's - 90's - 2000's with some knowledgeable people and some not knowledgable people that can ask questions…or no questions and just the breakdowns...

 

Either Yearly in all promotions or by promotion (shorter but more) with details of the big matches and feuds and things to look for.

 

I think folks would LOVE to have it..

 

AND I know the yearly podcasts for 90 and 91 were done and REALLY good, but detail for only puro would be fantastic...

[jdw]

 

 

 

 

In the August training camp in 1990, Misawa & Co formed their own group called Cho Sedai gun, which means Super Generation Army or something similar. Originally, I think it was Misawa, Kawada, Taue, Kobashi, Kikuchi and Ogawa, but Jumbo asked Taue to join his army after Yatsu left. They disbanded in 1998, if I'm not mistaken.

Taue was part of Misawa's group in Super Power Series (May-Jun) and Summer Action Series (Jul). By the start Summer Action Series II (Aug-Sep), he was over in Jumbo's team.

 

Kawada and Kobashi were part of his group from the start in the Super Power Series, pretty much from the unmasking going forward.

 

Kikuchi evolved over time into the group, largely due to his showings opposite Fuchi in May and the June fan appreciation show. By the start of the Summer Action Series in July, he was firmly the "junior" in the group.

 

Ogawa is a different bird. If I recall correctly, he was out hurt during the transition period. He came back in October, largely preliming. In the Tag League, he was teaming with Fuchi and opposite Kikuchi several times. He farted around in the New Years series, before firmly being in Jumbo's group in the Excite series (Feb-Mar 1991).

Weekly Pro Wrestling says they became a group at a training camp held in Chiba in August 1990. I think Asako, who was still a trainee at the time, was the sixth member and not Ogawa. According to WPW, the purpose of the camp was to strengthen the unity of the remaining young wrestlers after the defections.

So they weren't a "group" in the prior to series despite Misawa, Kawada, Taue and Kobashi all teaming with each other all across the prior two series. And then Taue *not* teaming with Misawa, Kawada & Kobashi after the "training camp"? So much for unity.

 

Misawa, Kawada, Taue and Kobashi were a group in the Super Power Series (May-Jun) and Summer Action Series (Jul). Look up the results and watch the weekly TV. If you're too lazy for that, watch the Jumbo-Misawa singles match from June and keep any eye out for who is in Misawa's corner. It's not terribly complex, and it's something we all knew at the time. Right down to Taue working the opening night in the Summer Action Series II in August with Jumbo & Fuchi against Misawa & Kawada & Kikuchi at Korakuen Hall:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/17716-mitsuharu-misawa-toshiaki-kawada-tsuyoshi-kikuchi-vs-jumbo-tsuruta-akira-taue-masa-fuchi-ajpw-summer-action-series-ii-081890

 

John

Perhaps they were not officially a group until August despite having tagged together, or perhaps they simply hadn't been named yet. The WPW timeline makes sense in regard to the opening night of the Summer Action Series.

 

 

 

MISAWA: "Hey... we've been tagging since the middle of May. Perhaps it's time to come up with a name?"

 

KOBASHI: "How about the New Kids on the Block?"

 

KAWADA: "Shut the fuck up, Donny."

 

TAUE: "You know that Baba is moving me over to Jumbo's side because that jerkoff Kabuki jumped to Tenryu's promotion."

 

KOBASHI: "I never liked Kabuki. Maybe Yatsu can team with Jumbo and you can stay with us, Akira."

 

KAWADA: "Oh for Christ... will you shut the fuck up, Donny."

 

KOBASHI: "Why does he keep calling me Donny?"

 

TAUE: "Kenta... Yatsu jumped to Tenryu's group more than a month ago."

 

KENTA: "Oh... that's why I haven't seen him around for a while."

 

TAUE: "Anyway, I'm off to Jumbo's group..."

 

MISAWA: "So what do we tell these reporters around for the photo opp thinking we're all still together?"

 

KAWADA: "Awww, fuck it Dudes. Let's go bowling."

[Smack2k]

YES…the #1 Movie of all time (in my opinion)...

 

WELL DONE Sir!!!

 

MISAWA - "Kenta's a pacifist…"

 

KAWADA - "I did not know that…I dabbled in pacifism once…not vs. Akira of course…"

 

MISAWA - "Get in the car Tosh.."

[ohtani's jacket]

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/17716-mitsuharu-misawa-toshiaki-kawada-tsuyoshi-kikuchi-vs-jumbo-tsuruta-akira-taue-masa-fuchi-ajpw-summer-action-series-ii-081890

 

 

 

I watched the first thirty seconds of this and the commentator gets all emotional comparing the creation of Misawa's group to the beginning of All Japan 18 years prior and asks what new dreams Misawa is going to give us. Also, the picture of Cho Sedai gun on the beach in Chiba was in the 1998 Tokyo Dome program.

[jdw]

That's really cool... especially since Taue's over there teaming with Jumbo, and Kawada & Kobashi have been teaming with Misawa for 3 full months by that point.

 

But I'm glad to see that the announcer and the promotion were dumber than the fans who already knew that Misawa had his group of young guys back in May, the same guys who were carrying him around the ring in June after he pinned Jumbo.

 

Daniel: I here in the US who didn't speak Japanese, and the puroresu trainee who I worked with who did, both knew about Misawa's group being with Kawada, Taue and Kobashi two series earlier. So... were we just pulling it out of out asses, or was it nakedly obvious to everyone watching the shit?

[ohtani's jacket]

If you watch the earlier matches, there's no real focus on the young guys being a group. The commentator mentions that Tsuruta is teaming with veterans, but the emphasis is really on Misawa vs. Jumbo. Even in the Budokan match, there's no special mention made of Kobashi, Kawada and Taue being in Misawa's corner. Then suddenly heading into the summer the young guys working together becomes an angle, so I think I'll take the word of the commentator, the weekly wrestling magazine and the promotion itself on this one. I get what you're saying, but Misawa had tagged with Kobashi and Taue as Tiger Mask II, so the vibe I get is that the group proper emerged out of Misawa's win in July.

[jdw]

Jumbo was teaming up with Vets? Sure... other thank Fuyuki and Nakano.

 

Tiger Mask II teamed with a lot of people since putting on the mask in 1984. That's the lot of a midcarder. But you might have some fun trying to figure out how often he teamed with Kawada between the founding of the Revolution and telling Kawada to untie the Mask.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how people watching Misawa tag with Kawada, Taue, Kobashi and Kikuchi exclusively across two series after taking the mask off, those guys being in his corner and backing him at the both of the biggest matches of his career up to that point, would result in Fans not thinking that these are his guys? It was obvious to all of us watching it.

 

As far as the Group Proper, it's moot: Taue immediately started tagging with Jumbo after the group "formed".

 

I'd be happy to post all of Misawa's results for 1990 when he returned from the knee injury, across the New Year Giant Series, Excite Series, Champion Carnival, Super Power Series and Summer Action Series so you can see what the rest of us were seeing at the time, how the change is nakedly clear starting with the Super Power Series (teaming exclusively with Kawada, Taue, Kobashi and Kikuchi) and then nakedly clear again right from the start of the Summer Action Series II (Taue moves over to become Jumbo's protege because Kabuki left).

[ohtani's jacket]

There's no need to post match results that can be found at the touch of a button, but if you have any extra details you can pass them along.

 

The commentator talked about vets because Tsuruta was tagging with them in the matches I checked. Specifically, in the match that according to the uploader was supposed to be the first Tsuruta-gun vs. Cho Sedai-gun match, but which the commentary only mentioned Misawa and Kobashi having new ring attire. Maybe the commentary is bad. As I've said before, Fukuzawa wasn't people's preferred commentator.

[jdw]

I ran through the Japanese Wrestling Journal.

 

Cho Sedai-gun, the big meeting of the minds and the forming of a new group in August 1990 doesn't rate a mention.

 

In contrast, he does spend some time explaining Kabuki double crossing Baba in jumping to Tenryu's group. He also talks about Yatsu jumping when that happened. He also talked about Baba being surprised by Fuyuki jumping given Tenryu and Fuyuki having some heat with each other. He talks about both shoot angles between Tsuruta and Misawa. He talks about Gordy's issues leading to the vacating of the titles. He even was talking about Tenryu's "problems" *before* he left All Japan. He talked about Doc's coming to All Japan, and the reasons Bigelow worked some shows. Even lower level things like Furnas and Kroffat both getting hurt and knocked out of the All Asia Tag tourney were things he talked about.

 

This isn't me, or Dave... or even my Japanese co-worker at the time who was walking me through what was going on. This was a Japanese wrestling fan writing about the stuff. Pretty much at the peak of his writing at the time. Someone who went to a lot of cards in Tokyo as well, ones that tend to be obvious if one pays attention closely to the write ups. It simply didn't rate to him.

 

It wasn't important, Daniel. Misawa's partners were clear before August. Jumbo's was evolving because assholes kept jumping. As I mentioned earlier, even the notion that he was teaming with "old guys" wasn't explicit since he teamed with a number of peers of Misawa's guys in those first two series. The obvious reason it didn't rate is because on the very next card after the Really Big Group Forming, Taue started teaming with Jumbo. It rendered the whole nonsense moot.

 

Whether the promotion pushed it didn't matter. Misawa was teaming with the same dudes he had for two series, with the exception of the guy who went over to be Jumbo's #2. That's how fans saw it. That's how my co-worker saw it, and how the guy writing up the JWJ saw it. Sorry if I'm a dumb gaijin who saw it the exact same way they did.

 

As far as ring outfits:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs1F717fMWY

 

Misawa is in the same Green & Silver he'd been wearing since May. Kawada wasn't in the Black & Yellow. Kobashi wasn't even in the match, but what I recall of his August ring outfits, it was the same Orange trunks. Since Misawa wasn't wearing his jacket coming out to that match, I went back to his Triple Crown match against Hansen in July and then forward to later in the year to the famous Kobashi Bleeding Nose Match... and it's the same Silver Pro Collection Misawa jacket.

 

So... yeah.

 

John

[Fantastic]

Man, Kawada looked awful in those blue and yellow tights.

[ohtani's jacket]

That's not the match where they wear their new attire.

 

It wasn't important, Daniel. Misawa's partners were clear before August. Jumbo's was evolving because assholes kept jumping. As I mentioned earlier, even the notion that he was teaming with "old guys" wasn't explicit since he teamed with a number of peers of Misawa's guys in those first two series. The obvious reason it didn't rate is because on the very next card after the Really Big Group Forming, Taue started teaming with Jumbo. It rendered the whole nonsense moot.

 

It may not have been important, but I'd just like to reiterate that it did happen.

Here's the picture from the Chiba training camp:

 

And here's a picture of Misawa's group from a telephone card. The kanji says Cho Sedai-gun.

[jdw]

Man, Kawada looked awful in those blue and yellow tights.

 

Totally agree. Though the Footloose outfits haven't ages well, even if they were the first things I saw Kawada in. The Black & Yellow kind of became iconic for him, similar to Misawa's Green & Silver being so "Misawa" that his Tiger outfits feel odd.

[jdw]

 

It wasn't important, Daniel. Misawa's partners were clear before August. Jumbo's was evolving because assholes kept jumping. As I mentioned earlier, even the notion that he was teaming with "old guys" wasn't explicit since he teamed with a number of peers of Misawa's guys in those first two series. The obvious reason it didn't rate is because on the very next card after the Really Big Group Forming, Taue started teaming with Jumbo. It rendered the whole nonsense moot.

 

It may not have been important, but I'd just like to reiterate that it did happen.

 

Here's the picture from the Chiba training camp:

 

 

And here's a picture of Misawa's group from a telephone card. The kanji says Cho Sedai-gun.

 

 

 

 

Daniel: no one has said a photo op didn't happen.

 

You claim it that the Chiba Training Camp was EARTH SHATTERING IMPORTANT~!

 

My point is that it wasn't important.

 

Look at the first picture. It's rather obvious why it wasn't important. The Dude on the far right on the bottom. He was teaming with Jumbo in the very next Misawa-Jumbo match after this. The promotion didn't even bother to run an angle of having Taue team with Misawa and turn on him that night, similar to Choshu turning on Fujinami in a tag and Khan turning on Sak in a tag to create the New Wolves. Instead, Baba just said:

 

"Aw fuck it... Taue's teaming with Jumbo. Misawa keeps everyone else he's been teaming with since May. Let's hope some other asshole doesn't jump."

[ohtani's jacket]

I didn't claim anything was EARTH SHATTERING IMPORTANT~! The commentator made out that it was EARTH SHATTERING-LY IMPORTANT~! The Chiba pictures have been reprinted again and again over the years. They were reprinted when Misawa died and again when Kobashi retired. The main picture was included in the 1998 Tokyo Dome Show program. Perhaps it's a story that's been repeated again and again and grown over time. Perhaps it wasn't important at the time... except that's a hot entrance in the match you posted, Taue tagging with Jumbo is either explained or acknowledged during his introduction, and AJPW began producing Cho Sedai-gun merchandise at some point after August.

 

I don't know any more details and I'm not prepared to put any more time and energy into researching about it since a) it's not very important, the timeline is only off by a few months either way, c) I don't think anybody here cares, and d) you wouldn't believe it anyway. The lack of any mention in the WON or the JWJ is, to me, inconclusive since there are so many Japanese sources that refer to it, particularly the Misawa obituaries. I've never seen the JWJ. I don't know how he usually reported news or what he said about the Summer Action Series II. I was more interested in whether he reported the formation of CSG earlier in the timeline, but since he doesn't appear to mention when they officially formed then the JWJ simply doesn't provide any information about it. Why didn't he explain the Taue situation? From what you're saying it doesn't appear that he explained the kayfabe reason. What does he write about the opening night of that series?

 

Because something's up with that entrance. That isn't a normal entrance. Why is the commentator so emotional? It's just another Misawa & Co. vs. Tsuruta & Co. trios that you and your colleague had been following for two series. It can't be that it's the first time that Misawa has wrestled Jumbo since Budokan since they had wrestled each other at least six times before the opening night of Summer Action Series II, including three times on television. What is this new start comparable to the beginning of All Japan 18 years before? How is this trios different from the July version?

 

Anyway, here's another pic of the Chiba camp that somehow manages to float around 24 years later despite its irrelevancy.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Perhaps they were not officially a group until August despite having tagged together, or perhaps they simply hadn't been named yet. The WPW timeline makes sense in regard to the opening night of the Summer Action Series.

 

 

A further note here:

 

The first time they're referred to as CSG appears to be on the first Summer Action Series, specifically in the 7/12 six man and especially the 7/17 six-man. In the 7/12 match they're called a couple of different names, but in the 7/17 match they're called CSG throughout the match. So, if the Chiba camp was of any significance whatsoever, and if the August date is correct, then it's for a different reason than those listed above.

[DR Ackermann]

How does the Tenryu heel turn work? I saw when he and Jumbo lost the tag titles to the Road Warriors. Then I watched him and Waijima wrestle Tiger Jeet Singh & Texas Red in what was supposed to be his heel turn. It was just a really boring match and Tenryu didn't seem to care about Waijima. Am I missing something? I always thought for some reason that he attacked Jumbo or walked out on him during a match.

[jdw]

 

Perhaps they were not officially a group until August despite having tagged together, or perhaps they simply hadn't been named yet. The WPW timeline makes sense in regard to the opening night of the Summer Action Series.

 

 

A further note here:

 

The first time they're referred to as CSG appears to be on the first Summer Action Series, specifically in the 7/12 six man and especially the 7/17 six-man. In the 7/12 match they're called a couple of different names, but in the 7/17 match they're called CSG throughout the match. So, if the Chiba camp was of any significance whatsoever, and if the August date is correct, then it's for a different reason than those listed above.

 

 

Aw heck... kind of zoned out that there even was a response in this thread.

 

Anyway, glad to know that we've confirmed that:

 

* Misawa's group was Misawa group before the big Chiba Camp in August

 

* that the big Chiba Camp in August changed nothing from the prior series (a series which hadn't really changed anything about Misawa's group from the series before that other than Kikuchi's role as I mentioned earlier)

 

* that the only change that happened after the big Chiba Camp in August is that the guy in those ugly red trunks with yellow stripes instantly left the group to team with their enemy Jumbo while Baba couldn't be bothered coming up with a major angle as a reason for it and instead just moved him over because it was needed with Kabuki skipping town

 

And here we were worried that I missed something important by being an English language gaijin who watched the TV every week from 1989-99 while reading the WON and JWJ.